Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Shalee Lianne on 19 Oct 2010, 14:13
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So someone IMed me today with this:
Anonymous says:
I'm Chris Hansen with Dateline NBC
shalee @ work says:
:P
Anonymous says:
why don't you have a seat over there?
hmmm I should create an IC pedophile
for epic lolz
shalee @ work says:
No you shouldn't
Anonymous says:
why not?
shalee @ work says:
Because it's a line you shouldn't cross, I think
Anonymous says:
eve doesnt have any lines
you should know that by now
shalee @ work says:
You'll be ostracized
Anonymous says:
i doubt it
shalee @ work says:
I would guarantee it.
But if you don't believe me, make a post on the Backstage and see what kind of reaction you would get
Just put something like "I have in mind of making a character..."
Anonymous says:
i would just make it without anyone knowing who its main was
shalee @ work says:
Ok, so I'll post this conversation and X out your name, and see what people think, that sound fair?
Anonymous says:
lol
shalee @ work says:
Seriously I'm going to post it okay?
Anonymous says:
fine
as long as Im not named
shalee @ work says:
You wont be.
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THE PRIME FICTION HAS NO PEDOS, JUST FEDOS!!11!!1
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Does EVE PF include child rape and other forms of related despicable behavior? Of course.
Is the fictional depiction of that legal? Depends on your jurisdiction.
Would I ever play with anybody involved at all with such things? Not if I had an inkling. (And yes, this has come up for me in other RP, not in EVE.)
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I was originally writing a lengthy post quoting a number of CCP's rules for interaction in EVE, but then realised what I was trying to say could be summed up in a few short sentences instead.
The roleplaying community is extremely tolerant of actions that technically violate some of CCP's rules on the basis that we are mature enough to deal with it, provided it contributes to the roleplay community. If we don't like something, we just grimace, ignore it, and maybe create a thread over here to discuss it.
Frankly, however, none of us are going to find a pedophile funny, interesting, or constructive. If, by "for epic lolz" Anonymous means watching him get booted out of each and ever channel as absolutely nobody finds him in anyway worth keeping around... yeah. If he means for other people to find funny and interesting... no. It's just not going to work.
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The human mind is a disgusting thing to possess. The fact that someone who is playing EVE Online (and manages to roleplay as well) decides that his experience would be more "realistic" or "unique" by pretending that he is a pedophile, or constant rapist, is:
A. Such a troll.
B. Requires psychiatric assistance immediately.
I know, I know: "Oh but you are taking away the creativity and freedom of someone contributing to the RP!" Oh, please. This is internet spaceships mixed with war, diplomacy, market trading, exploring and politics. No one in the real world would advertise that they are a sick fuck.
Nikita is excused. (the character)
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I dont think child rape/molestation should ever be played really, least of all for "epic lulz". It doesnt really add anything important to the storyline, especially if done in a way thats aiming for "lulz".
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I dont think child rape/molestation should ever be played really, least of all for "epic lulz". It doesnt really add anything important to the storyline, especially if done in a way thats aiming for "lulz".
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster
It has its uses if done artistically correct to make the character as described above.
Anything else and yeah, it's dumb and shouldn't be bothered with.
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The mere thought of someone getting the idea of roleplaying that for epic lulz makes me want to punch them in the face, repeatedly. Sorry, but if you find that humorous, something is wrong with you. I realize the lulz would be more coming from shocking the RP community than playing the actual character but still, there are certain lines you do not cross, if only because you're going to upset and offend a lot of people with it.
Furthermore, call me skeptic, but I don't think many people have it in them to roleplay this archetype seriously in EVE. Or for a long time.
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Why would someone want to play this role? This makes me feel sick inside.
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Lets write fiction about rapeing 7 years olds, for epic lulz?
Lets sit around in an IC bar talking about rapeing 7 year olds, for epic lulz?
Lets hit someone in the face at fan-fest, for epic lulz?
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Always the devils advocate I am.
Realistic? Yes, it would be realistic to have a person who roleplayed such activities. However in keeping with realism, no person would dare let that action come to light (intentionally). Such an individual would invariably fear the social/criminal retribution from being discovered. Ergo, you'd be roleplaying a person who would be roleplaying a normal human being for all interaction.
Caught such an individual would face wrath beyond the normal kind of wrath, on all sides. Any incursion by the outed pilot into any social area would summon guards, bouncers, whatever to detain the individual. Any communication would by necessity, be relegated to long-distance. The best end to be hoped for by the pilot would be this situation, or not being caught at all.
Barring the fact you would offend... almost anyone, the character concept would be a dead end, no matter how played.
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Sure they can roleplay it.
Good luck finding anyone to actually play with though.
I don't think they're twisted or sick, I just think they're a bit silly.
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Eh. If I became aware of it, I would do my damnedest to get him banned by CCP.
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Pushing the margins isn't always a good thing.
There are some places you let your brain go because it is interesting, if scary, to let your brain go there. What does a murderer think like? A serial killer, even? A terrorist? A heartless black-ops type?
Those are sort of "theme park ride" thought processes. We do them because they're fun, if creepy.
Then there are places that push the margins: people (guys, in particular, and especially men playing female characters; it's one of the easiest ways to spot same) tend to detest rapists with a kind of bone-deep loathing. It's a visceral reaction. Likewise, people who personally commit acts of violence against helpless innocents, especially children, tend to get a knot going in our guts.
These can still be played, and sometimes are. OOC reactions will be mixed, and sometimes quite hostile. It depends on where people's own boundaries are.
Pedophilia (the mental condition, not the act of child molestation or rape) is the sort of thing that seems to make people go, "Huh? That's legal?" If we had such a thing as illegal states of mind, pedophilia would be right at the top of the list. Fictional depictions of child pornography ("Loli" porn) are legal in the U.S. only because the good ol' Supreme Court decided that they can't be banned; fictional depictions don't cause suffering to any real children (and are not themselves records of criminal acts), so First Amendment protections apply.
Otherwise? Oh, man, would we ban the stuff.
As for the actual act, we tend to view child-rapist pedophiles as the scummiest of the thick, viscous surface scum of a particularly scummy scum pool, with additional scum ladled on top. Declaring intent to play one of those (and thus at least superficially thinking like one) is much like declaring, "I think I'll go physically soak my brain in raw sewage, just for the luls." Playing one would be comparable to actually doing so.
It'll get about the same reaction.
Minor points for being avant-garde. Major points off for disgusting absolutely everybody. This would be the act of a major, major troll.
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It's kinda sad that I get the feeling just from the first comment in Shalee's posted chat log that I know exactly who this person is.
And assuming that feeling happens to be accurate, I'd say that person genuinely thinks they'd be funny if they did it.
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It's kinda hard to decide if this is "too far" because you can't really tell if the Anonymous person is joking. He could be a simple tool who thinks "lol child rape = height of comedy" or he could be the next Dash Prik (http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article630531.ece), plotting his next internet dick-cruise to toddlertown.
All I know is, if I found someone in Eve that was playing Sim Pedo, I'd alert the cops. Then I'd exterminate them. Not sure which would come first.
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The thing about EVE is that there you can use your freedom of choice pretty much to your hearts content.
All choices have consequences, in this thread there has been pointed out several for making a choice of making an RP Pedo alt for lulz.
I won't stop somebody from shooting themselves in the foot, because that shit is funny.
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I just don't understand why anyone would want to delve into that.
Yes, EVE is a dark place, and that is part of it's appeal, but at the same time you have to have some kind of limit, I think.
When you roleplay, you typically go inside the mind of your character, you have to understand them on such a personal level to rp them well, their motivations for what they do etc. I just can't imagine going into the mind of a child rapist. There's nothing 'lols' about it, it's just such a sick and twisted thing that I can't imagine anyone really wanting to portray that.
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I just don't understand why anyone would want to delve into that.
Possibly, because what really does it for them is the reactions of people.
I've met people in game who do whatever they can to get reactions out of other people. Especially if those reactions are tears or "Ewwww"
In their game, there is no "too far". But they're not playing the same game we are.
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http://eve-search.com/thread/785564/page/1#1
For instance, blooding minors. You know, taking little children, and draining them of blood, to prove political points. Where do you draw the line? Is sexual assault worse than slowly making a 6 year old girl die from bleeding?
Generally, there are f-ed up RP positions to have in Eve online. Many of the people currently talking in this forum play characters that have these positions. Pirates that blow the smitherines out of everyone they see. Killing men women and children for political purposes. Allegedly hanging people by the neck until dead with no trial, otherwise known as lynching.
Yes, raping children is evil, detestable, and worthy of persecution in character and out of character. But so is everything else I've listed.
Where's the moral threshold? As ghost hunter said, where is the moral event horizon? At what point can we say, because of in-character actions, we can judge the out of character personality of the player in question?
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As far as I'm concerned, there is no moral threshold. You can RP whatever you want, and I will judge those IC actions by Goshien's standards. OOC, I'll judge your OOC actions by my own standards. This two don't mix with me.
Granted, if you're that evil IC or even just annoying Goshien is going to block you. If you're that evil/annoying OOC, then I'm going to block you. I treat the internet different then I do life, and liberal use of the block button will stop anyone offending you.
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Possibly, because what really does it for them is the reactions of people.
I've met people in game who do whatever they can to get reactions out of other people. Especially if those reactions are tears or "Ewwww"
I had this issue before. I belonged for a time to Suddenly Ninjas, and for the most part I find them to be a great group of guys, including some who have moved on to Misfit Toys and other organizations.
But I've found that schadenfreude isn't much of a motivator for me. Sure, I'll laugh when somebody screams that they're going to petition me for salvaging "their" wrecks, but I don't like actively trying to get them to "cry".
This is a far cry from the sort of RP about which the thread started, of course, and I daresay that just about every Ninja I ever knew would react the same as just about everyone in this thread has. But the idea of "for the lulz" obviously strikes different people in different ways.
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In context, the person who proposed the character concept seems to be aiming for RP griefing: getting the maximum OOC shock-offence value and IC awkwardness from a character proposition. It's EVE: you get jerks. One of the reasons for the development of RP walled-gardens/gated communities is to have some level of screening for jerks in the areas where you RP most often.
That said, I happen to think a character who did like partners very young could potentially provide an interesting exploration of some parts of the human psyche and the EVE "world". I boggle slightly that -- in a milieu that includes slavery and quite as much killing as EVE does -- there seem to be some people saying that sex with particularly young partners would be unacceptable everywhere. While I could wish that were the case, I expect that there would actually be -- at least -- slavery, specialised personal services, and specialised sex tourism to meet this market.
That said, because of a bunch of real-world concerns and a preference for avoiding jerkish behaviour, I wouldn't really expect to see this explored in public RP channels. And I'm okay with that.
(Here's another take on this theme: imagine a Matari clan where you're considered an adult as soon as you have your voluval mark; the voluval ceremony is done quite young; and there are some older people who really enjoy helping induct the new adults into the world of sex, in ways ranging from the cheerfully enthusiastic to the downright creepy. Now navigate that as a young person; as a slightly older person who went through it and has a younger sibling about to go through it; as a tribal elder; as the Republic school inspector who checks on Republic-funded tribal schools and the wellbeing of the students.)
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Not many of us have had direct rl contact with slavery or ritual murder, but lots of us have kids or younger siblings or nieces/nephews. So it makes sense for pedos to be more of a taboo to us.
Then again, I have personally witnessed real life slavery firsthand, but despite my character being an Amarrian abolitionist, I'm not honestly sure if it has actually affected his point of view on the subject. It very well may have, but the main reason I joined U'K initially was simply because I had friends there.
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The human mind is a disgusting thing to possess. The fact that someone who is playing EVE Online (and manages to roleplay as well) decides that his experience would be more "realistic" or "unique" by pretending that he is a pedophile, or constant rapist, is:
A. Such a troll.
B. Requires psychiatric assistance immediately.
I know, I know: "Oh but you are taking away the creativity and freedom of someone contributing to the RP!" Oh, please. This is internet spaceships mixed with war, diplomacy, market trading, exploring and politics. No one in the real world would advertise that they are a sick fuck.
Literally nothing more than this needs to be said.
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I'm going to go out on a branch a wee bit here and claim that it, like all other things, has its place in RP.
That said, that place is not and will never be "for the lulz." As an act of moral blackness to really drive home how utterly horrible and irredeemable that character is, it works. Its a 'slap you in the face' shock value type action. Doing it to try to be funny is a hilariously bad idea, because its not funny. Rape and pedophilia are not amusing things to be played around with, I find it bad enough how much rape RP there is, serious things need to be taken seriously. If done so, they have their place, if not, don't do it.
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Although, we need to lock this. There's not exactly anything to debate or come to conclusions about, seeing as the OP's quote is from a troll who wanted this to exactly happen.
Good point. In the context of the OP, this sort of RP is obviously wrong.
But when I look at RP that crosses ethical boundaries from a broader spectrum, the response becomes less obvious to me. Not just because "RP is RP," but also because the act of RPing a character who crosses these boundaries doesn't necessarily mean an endorsement of his/her actions. The first example of this that came to my mind was Judge Holden from Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian, if any of you have read it. The judge is certainly the smartest, best-educated, and most omni-talented of Glanton's merry little band of troglodyte Indian killers, and he never fails to amaze/manipulate/save the gang. He spouts philosophy, scripture, and all sorts of sciences. If it weren't for his antisocial mindset, pedophilia, and complete lack of moral center, he might actually be redeemable. But he isn't, and from the way he's presented, he can't possibly be construed any other way. His worse acts--pedophilia included--also happen without explicit description.
I see no problem with RPing a Judge Holden, ALTHOUGH RPing out more despicable acts, even in private, isn't something I endorse.
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I see no problem with RPing a Judge Holden, ALTHOUGH RPing out more despicable acts, even in private, isn't something I endorse.
this basically.
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[mod]Cleaned up the thread somewhat. I realize this is a sensitive topic, but please try to keep a little perspective.[/mod]
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I'm going to go out on a branch a wee bit here and claim that it, like all other things, has its place in RP.
I disagree.
For similar reasons as I mentioned in another thread. About prostitutes.
I think it creates, sustains and encourages the atmosphere of "lolrp", "RP'ers are all weirdos", "RP is for fags".
Provides the tar to paint every Rper with.
So, no.
Besides which, that is a thing to RP at people with, not to RP with them. There is a difference, a big one, in roleplaying with someone, and roleplaying at them.
Roleplaying should be fun, and I do not get this idea some people have where they appear to be under some mental anguish, so that their character is "realistic" or something, and inflict that on people they roleplay with.
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To put it bluntly:
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Whether it is "accepted" by the RP community or not, someone roleplaying a pedophile could potentially be a harmful influence to minors playing this game. I would aggressively pursue this person being banned from the game for attempting this, as well as insisting that the proper authorities were alerted to this.
If my child were to interact with this person, and he were to "roleplay" his character and bring up pedophilia, there would be legal ramifications of this.
So you tell me. What's too far? I would say that my right to do as I wish ends where another's right to do as they wish begins. That includes enjoying the game and not being subjected to material that can be considered harmful, inflammatory and opens one up to legal action. The individual in question had best be prepared for the negative consequences of those actions.
Also, depictions of violent acts on children can have legal ramifications in some countries as well. So, the difference between harming a child physically, emotionally, etc. is really moot. Harm is harm. Yes, there are dark aspects of the EVE setting. Should all of these be fair game to those playing a game based on this setting? I don't believe so. Graphic depictions of murder, rape, sexuality and other things are really best left to the "backstory" and left out of in-game venues for the simple fact that children can and do play this game. Do children RP? Not usually, but it's not unheard of. There are also parents who play the game who don't want to see someone talking about hurting children in any way shape or form.
So in short, if I ever see anything like this, I'll report it.
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I do not think what is "too far" depends so much on what is depicted, but on how and why. Doing something (pretty much anything) "for the lulz", let alone to provoke and annoy other players, is in my books "going too far". On the other hand, I cannot think of a theme that could not be dealt with in RP - if done with taste, with something else in mind than just being an arse towards others.
Of course, as pointed out, one has to consider the fact that one does not know the audience, and that EULA forbids some things you might otherwise consider acceptable.
And of course, "I find this acceptable RP" does not mean that I will ICly interact with you if you RP it. My character's opinions of enjoyable company are much more limited than my opinions of what RP is enjoyable. :)
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for epic lolz
This is the thing I object to most.
I have pretty broad tolerances, especially for fictional material. Epic lolz usually means trying to aggravate people who don't desire to be subject to a particular type of interaction.
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Alright everyone. Everybody that said the word, please put isk into the jar. (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/435)
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If the distinction is between someone who RPs these activities versus someone who RPs a character who engages in those activities, that's quite something different IMO.
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If the distinction is between someone who RPs these activities versus someone who RPs a character who engages in those activities, that's quite something different IMO.
okay yeah, this I can definitely agree with. Having a character and saying, they are a complete monster, they are a pedo, etc, etc, is in a completely different ballpark then actually rping out that.
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Just going to point back to my original post (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1252.msg15063#msg15063) at the end of the first page. This person not only would honestly believe that they were being genuinely funny, but probably would also attempt to RP it out "for the lulz". It's not like they're a particularly well-respected member of the community to begin with, to be fair, but that's kinda beside the point.
Assuming my guess as to who it is is accurate, anyway. I've not been given any reasons to think it's not.
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Just going to point back to my original post (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1252.msg15063#msg15063) at the end of the first page. This person not only would honestly believe that they were being genuinely funny, but probably would also attempt to RP it out "for the lulz". It's not like they're a particularly well-respected member of the community to begin with, to be fair, but that's kinda beside the point.
Assuming my guess as to who it is is accurate, anyway. I've not been given any reasons to think it's not.
While I applaud your potential in critical analysation Morwen that really isn't hugely needed in my mind to say that you probably suspect someone, as plenty of people with half a brain can get 2+2 and make 4, or even 5 if you get my meaning.
In regards to the OP.
I am deeply and completely disgusted by the idea of such RP.
In my mind, it has no place anywhere in our society or being, be it in reality or fictionalised.
Ghost mentioned the idea of a Complete Monster, if someone wanted to create a character like that for shock value on an OOC level, as was mentioned in that link it should never be for "lulz" Value.
I doubt that they should have a place except in the hallows of darkest fiction, which EVE isn't entirely about, sure its dark, murky and disturbing in some respect - but there is no need for the deepest and darkest black to tarnish all the other shades of grey that give it such depth and contrast.
And I agree with what Louella said about tarnishing RP'rs in general.
Stuff like that gets out, doesnt matter how but it does - and when it does word gets around, when word gets around about something like that, the mental tarnish is applied to all of that genre, ie a GM Car breaks down, and is recalled - GM's entire reputation is tarnished, despite the quality of any other products.
The same with us RP'rs, if we get tarnished with one RP'rs stupid idea the entire community suffers and all we work for and play to enjoy becomes distinctly less so because of it.
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I would point out that slavery is in this game. If you think back through all the moral crimes and atrocities that have occured because of slavery, then they exist in this game. Child abuse included.
People, however, willingly roleplay slavers, even if moderate, are still apart of a fictional institution that officially supports and justifies such crimes.
Just pointing out the fallacy of automatic, kneejerk condemnation of the OP. I still think that RPing it would be outright wierd though. In fact there's no need to get all vindicated about the morality of it. People will see it, be sickened, and no one will RP with them, and said RP will pass over.
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(http://www.rustyarcade.com/uploads/articles/commonsense.jpg)