Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Character Development => Topic started by: Odelya on 29 Sep 2013, 06:03
-
Hey,
at the moment I am writing a little manual which deals with religious questions. Since Odelya is a holder in the Kingdom she has the authority and the duty to guide her subjects; I would like to use this way to build a more systematic and comprehensive outlook on Amarrian religion—albeit with a limited scope, since Odelya’s authority is conferred to her holdings and her views are rather unorthodox.
The backstory of Odelya roughly goes this way: Born into a wealthy family of holders, who occupied various positions in the Kingdom and traces back its roots to the ancient warriors on Athra, she had a carefree childhood. (She never put on her stockings alone.) She is extremely self-loving, selfish, spoiled, and always ready for another extravaganza. Having spent most of her holidays in entertainment facilities, she is torn between a liberal outlook and the Khanid way of life. (This liberal outlook only counts for herself though, anything but the Khanid/Amarrian theory and practice of state and power is completely foreign to her and she has not even a basic understanding of how other political systems and societies work. Basically, she is like a rich Saudi hypocrite, drinking alcohol and having orgies the one day, and attending an ultra-conservative gathering the other day condemning people who deviate from the narrow path which is acceptable.)
At the same time—and especially after the death of her father—she has feelings of guilt. She is not really sure if she believes in anything but herself, but she feels compelled to believe to believe. As a consequence she becomes extremely zealous sometimes until she reaches a point where her doubts win over again and the debauchery starts—only to become more extreme the next time. Most of the time she is just pretending to be religious and sees this as a way to win over the hearts and minds of other people—which doesn’t really work, as could be observed.
Now to the manual: It will be something of a mix between a Shiite توضيح المسائل and a Catholic catechism, dealing with questions in a simple Q&A form:
[Spoiler]Q. Is Jamyl Sarum (“Jamyl I”) the empress or not?
A. She is not the empress.[/Spoiler]
If you have any question that you would like Odelya to answer I would be more than happy to include them! :-) The questions should be short and to the point. Like: "What is the nature of God" or "Is it advisable to..." etc.
Now to my original question: I want to make Odelya the "Duchess of Palas, Lustrevik, Isendeldik, and Eystur". Would you deem this appropriate? Palas is the only system in the Khanid Kingdom, so the only place where she helds some real jurisdiction, while Lustrevik, Isendeldik and Eystur are—of course—Minmatar territories. Yet I read something in the EVE wiki which truly amazed me:
In modern times, destitute Holders are rare. They were more common in the past, particularly following the Minmatar Rebellion, when the Holders of various Minmatar planets were expelled from their holdings. The majority were left penniless and either absorbed into other holder families or simply died out. A few still remain; most notably the so-called Duke of Pator, who rents a small office in a station in Pator and regularly sends out pronouncements to his “people.” Though the Duke is descended from a former Pator-based Holder, he is viewed as a harmless eccentric by the locals and largely ignored.
And I am lookin forward to the mockery this will provoke from the Minmatar side. Bloody heathens… ;-)
Feedback and ideas are welcome!
Odelya
P.S.: If someone thinks Odelya is completely annoying: Please let me know this too! ;-)
-
I always loved Odelya as a character. I don't have any suggestions on where to go with her, but I always wholly enjoyed her portrayal and the various storylines you've taken her through.
-
Some thoughts:
- If I am understanding correctly, you are considering making Odelya Duchess of the Palas, Lustrevik, Isendeldik, and Eystur systems in their entirety. Given that the latter three systems are basically (IC) pointless claims, how do your intend to use the 4th? Would Odelya even have any part in that claim now that her family has disowned her?
- In general, unless you are ready and accepting for Odelya to become something of a pariah, be careful of being dramatically outspoken. As is, she has already basically cast herself as an enemy in most Amarr/Khanid areas with her recent statements. If you are intending for her to go this route, understand its not a choice easily turned around.
Just my initial two cents.
-
Katrina, thank you, happy to hear this :)
Thank you for your input, Esna!
1| Odelya and Morijah have been reconciled. The shame remains, the legal consequences are gone :P (Maybe this should be mentioned somewhere in public?)
Lustrevik, Isendeldik, and Eystur will be my personal favourite titles, since I always loved people laying claim on Jerusalem six-hundred years after the crusades and so on… And I want Odelya to be friends with the Duke of Pator! :D The 4th will provide the background for IC developments, tax income, etc. I don’t have any specific plan and think Odelya is very likely not to care much: She is busy fighting the TLF and when not she is sitting in her fancy garden on Khanid Prime trying new outfits or pretending to be observing private rituals.
2| Odelya already is some kind of pariah and never had a place within the loyalist bloc. And if I am mistaken, the holo reel affair cemented this for good and what is done is done. Odelya’s traits as impulsive and self-aggrandising (while being pretty insecure at the same time) don’t fit into the traditional Amarrian rp setting.
(I just remembered that she is also 1st Baroness of Artusci and Chitarus, which are moons in Parses and Chamemi! More titles! :eek:)
-
I'd be careful with all these titles. Odelya is already not too far off of Vaari's number of titles and usually, the more titles you have, the more it sounds comical rather than impressive.
I'd also be careful with that catechism. Most Amarr Players don't look kindly on making the Amarr/Khanid look like space Catholics/Protestants or Muslims, for good reasons.
-
Kat and Odi can be such bestest friends!
-
I'd be careful with all these titles. Odelya is already not too far off of Vaari's number of titles and usually, the more titles you have, the more it sounds comical rather than impressive.
Vaari crossed my mind when I was sketching this out—but does Odelya has too many titles? She is the “Exalted Cherry Blossom”—which obviously wasn’t meant to be impressive (OOC), but of course Odelya thinks she is the one (IC). But maybe: “Her Grace Odelya of House d’Hanguest, Duchess of Palas, Lustrevik, Isendeldik, and Eystur, Holder of Various Moons in Parses and Chamemi” is indeed a bit too long to be taken seriously. I’ll think about it—maybe it is worth taking the risk. What would be the border between being realistic and bombastic? After all it is a tool that I am after to provide Odelya with a better framework to play out her torn, self-loving, fragile personality while providing a realistic (Khanid + destitute) holder background.
I'd also be careful with that catechism. Most Amarr Players don't look kindly on making the Amarr/Khanid look like space Catholics/Protestants or Muslims, for good reasons.
Could you elaborate this point? I am not entirely certain if I know what you mean.
Kat and Odi can be such bestest friends!
Kat and Odi should be the very bestest!
-
When I finally resub, I think Kala is going to really hate Odelya :D
(http://i.imgur.com/B7mu2.gif)
[spoiler]Also this:
Odelya d'Hanguest blushes > This is indeed outrageous!
Odelya d'Hanguest > Not even the Udorians in my father's kitchen talked like this!
Kalaratiri makes an exaggerated bow > Welcome to the Summit, Duchess!
Odelya d'Hanguest disconnects
[/spoiler]
-
I'd be careful with all these titles. Odelya is already not too far off of Vaari's number of titles and usually, the more titles you have, the more it sounds comical rather than impressive.
Vaari crossed my mind when I was sketching this out—but does Odelya has too many titles? She is the “Exalted Cherry Blossom”—which obviously wasn’t meant to be impressive (OOC), but of course Odelya thinks she is the one (IC). But maybe: “Her Grace Odelya of House d’Hanguest, Duchess of Palas, Lustrevik, Isendeldik, and Eystur, Holder of Various Moons in Parses and Chamemi” is indeed a bit too long to be taken seriously. I’ll think about it—maybe it is worth taking the risk. What would be the border between being realistic and bombastic? After all it is a tool that I am after to provide Odelya with a better framework to play out her torn, self-loving, fragile personality while providing a realistic (Khanid + destitute) holder background.
Kat and Odi can be such bestest friends!
Kat and Odi should be the very bestest!
[spoiler=American Attempting to Talk About Britain]On the titles, it should be noted that many lesser titled British have very excessive and long formal titles, but they are often shortened significantly for common or public use. The full title is usually used only for documentation or extreme formalities.[/spoiler]
I think it's entirely possible for you to have a long title realistically, as lordship titles tend to be. What makes Vaari comical isn't his long titles, but that he insists on using the entire thing every single chance he gets, even where a simple personal pronoun would do.
Also, yaaay! Best friends. \o/
Kat has lots of things to sell, luxurious delights to share, and stuff to talk about. D:
-
Thank you very much, Nicoletta and Katrina—you have convinced me. It is Palas and Lustrevik then, the rest (the moons!) is somewhere hidden in the Book of Records.
When I finally resub, I think Kala is going to really hate Odelya :D
[spoiler]Also this:
Odelya d'Hanguest blushes > This is indeed outrageous!
Odelya d'Hanguest > Not even the Udorians in my father's kitchen talked like this!
Kalaratiri makes an exaggerated bow > Welcome to the Summit, Duchess!
Odelya d'Hanguest disconnects
[/spoiler]
Kalaratiri, I had to laugh hard :lol:
-
To add on a bit what Nico already said, most Amarr players don't go as far as to say the Amarr faith is space Catholocism/Islam. While in old PF (might still be in PF) it boldly stated the roots of the Amarr religion stemmed from a branch of the Catholic church, that's not what it is anymore. Obviously over the many a years since the collapse of the Eve Gate, it evolved into something completely different, and you can't say it's anything mostly resembling to a specific RL religion anymore. I think that's what a lot of us Amarr/Khanid RPers see, and thus hesitant to call it space Catholocism/Islam.
However, using bits and pieces of RL religion/cultures as references to paint a better picture of the Amarr religion, that a lot of us do. I know a few of us say Persian/Arabic cultures, and I myself see things like some Egyptian, Roman, Hebrew and European Renaissance references in it. :P
One more thing, do be careful on what your character claims to be a holder of. I'm not saying this in reference to the Matari planets she claims to be a dutchess of at all. More in reference to any of the Khanid territory. As far as I know, I don't know anyone who claims to own the Palas system, so that should be okay. But I say this more so, just in case, be wary that changing what you say your character owns could potentially step on another player's RP, if said player already made a claim to such territory.
-
As there is no official Character written and compiled book of record that I am aware of that gets dragged out, I'd be amused to watch a character holder *****-fight.
Is there one?
And if not, should we not make one for lols?
-
To add on a bit what Nico already said, most Amarr players don't go as far as to say the Amarr faith is space Catholocism/Islam. While in old PF (might still be in PF) it boldly stated the roots of the Amarr religion stemmed from a branch of the Catholic church, that's not what it is anymore. Obviously over the many a years since the collapse of the Eve Gate, it evolved into something completely different, and you can't say it's anything mostly resembling to a specific RL religion anymore. I think that's what a lot of us Amarr/Khanid RPers see, and thus hesitant to call it space Catholocism/Islam.
However, using bits and pieces of RL religion/cultures as references to paint a better picture of the Amarr religion, that a lot of us do. I know a few of us say Persian/Arabic cultures, and I myself see things like some Egyptian, Roman, Hebrew and European Renaissance references in it. :P
One more thing, do be careful on what your character claims to be a holder of. I'm not saying this in reference to the Matari planets she claims to be a dutchess of at all. More in reference to any of the Khanid territory. As far as I know, I don't know anyone who claims to own the Palas system, so that should be okay. But I say this more so, just in case, be wary that changing what you say your character owns could potentially step on another player's RP, if said player already made a claim to such territory.
The Amarr religion stems per PF from the Unified Catholic Church of Mankind (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Unified_Catholic_Church). There has been much debate about what this church exactly is, but we can be quite sure that it's not the Roman Catholic Church or any other church we know now.
Most Amarr/Khanid RPer's draw on existing religions, and that is okay, but it's another thing to portray them as 'Space Catholics' or 'Space Muslims'. There are a couple of problems with this approach:
1) Where ever the Amarr religion has it's roots in the religious landscape as we know it, as Rin said: "Obviously over the many a years since the collapse of the Eve Gate, it evolved into something completely different, and you can't say it's anything mostly resembling to a specific RL religion anymore." The Amarrian religion should be recognised as her very own beast and should be acknowledged and portrayed as such. There is no reason given by PF to assume that the Amarr are 'Space Catholics' or 'Space Muslims' - quite to the contrary. Thus, portraying them as such is going against the PF.
2) Portraying the Amarr as 'Space Catholtics/Muslims' can easily hurt feelings of RL practitioners of those religions. It muddies the waters between fiction and reality and is quite easily leading to debates that cross this border - and that's something that already happens easily enough without portraying the Amarr religion in such a way.
3) It quite easily gets you into conflict with the EVE TOS. As stylizing the Amarr as 'Space Catholics/Muslims' can easily hurt religious feelings - and quite reasonably so, I might add - this can get you quickly into conflict with points 2, 3, and 7 of it. That you are roleplaying is no excuse as is stated in point 4 of the TOS.
So, while it's okay to take RL religions as an inspiration, I'd be careful not to slide into the realm that is caricature or (bad) plagiarization of RL religion. It's not only showing a lack of creativity, it is also unneccesarily taking chances to hurt people.
Typical examples I have seen in my time in EVE of going the 'Amarr are space Catholics' route include, but are not limited to: - Quoting Biblical Law as 'Scriptural Law'
- Using Christian prayers as Amarrian ones, by simply exchanging "Jesus Christ" with "Dano Gheinok".
- Employing the Psalms as typical Amarrian prayers
These are of course the most blatant things, but it's easy to take a couple of minor things that can easily add up. Of course, there are even weirder things going on, like claiming that Amarr are against science because they are religious.
In my experience most Amarr/Khanid players are thus not only hesitant to call Amarr religion space Catholocism/Islam, but they are quite averse to the idea. If for nothing else, then simply because they don't want to rehash the volatile exchange of opinions that happens IRL (mostly) between Christian Theists (mostly not Catholics, but mainly members of a variety of churches based in the US and in favour of Creationism) and equally evangelical Atheists.
-
The Amarr religion stems per PF from the Unified Catholic Church of Mankind (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Unified_Catholic_Church). There has been much debate about what this church exactly is, but we can be quite sure that it's not the Roman Catholic Church or any other church we know now.
I'm not debating that you know what you're talking about re: the Amarr Nic but where's the PF in the link you provided? As far as I can tell that Evelopedia page is player created and not really referenced to any actual PF (ie, chronicles, background, dev comments, etc).
-
The reference to the UCCM was in the old timeline.
-
The reference to the UCCM was in the old timeline.
I'm fairly sure I may have that saved somewhere. I'll check this afternoon when I get back from the doctor, and update this post if I can find it unless someone else beats me to it.
-
True, not an offical entry. The timeline (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_timeline) can be found here (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_timeline).
Look at the second entry, 3805 AD: "The Conformists, a group within the Unified Catholic Church, settles on Soekheveti."
Then, look at the Scriptures (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Scriptures) entry or Dano Gheinok (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dano_Gheinok) in the EVELopedia (both of which should be CCP controled and approved) for the relation Conformists - Amarr.
-
More porn flicks is never a bad thing.
-
Vaari is comical, because of using all of his titles, all the time.
like: "I, Vaari, (list of titles), disagree."
-
There is a huge difference between a character made only to look comical and assumed that way and a character that tries to be serious, and definitely fails completely and looks comical instead.
-
Do not speak such heresies against the Golden Mountain.
-
Rin, Nicoletta: I definitely agree, Amarr religion shouldn’t be portrait as “space Catholicism/Islam” in the sense that it is a mere emulation, however we all have some gaps to fill which prime fiction leaves. And there it is only natural to rely on “what we have”, and since many concepts (predestination, omnipotency, exegesis etc.) are issues discussed in many religions, I find it very attractive to play with them. (In my Book of Prayers I have used modified Christian prayers, yet I found it quite “Amarrish” in style and output.)
I don’t care much about the RL feelings of practitioners. I am a practitioner of some sorts myself, but we are playing an internet space ship game and the last thing I want to do is censor myself. And if we would apply 2, 3 and 7 of EVE TOS to rp, we would exchange sweets and gifts every day ;)
Thank you for all the input!
-
Because it probably isn't too clear from IGS posts, Morwen doesn't actually harbor any ill will towards Odie, she just likes heckling people who say (in her mind) really dumb things.
They'd actually probably get along fairly well in person. :P
-
Rin, Nicoletta: I definitely agree, Amarr religion shouldn’t be portrait as “space Catholicism/Islam” in the sense that it is a mere emulation, however we all have some gaps to fill which prime fiction leaves. And there it is only natural to rely on “what we have”, and since many concepts (predestination, omnipotency, exegesis etc.) are issues discussed in many religions, I find it very attractive to play with them. (In my Book of Prayers I have used modified Christian prayers, yet I found it quite “Amarrish” in style and output.)
I don’t care much about the RL feelings of practitioners. I am a practitioner of some sorts myself, but we are playing an internet space ship game and the last thing I want to do is censor myself. And if we would apply 2, 3 and 7 of EVE TOS to rp, we would exchange sweets and gifts every day ;)
Thank you for all the input!
I don't think it's the 'natural way to rely on “what we have”', if it translates to being too lazy to make something original up. That is quite clear from the way how the various questions are answered by various religions. Simply going by what some confession of the Christian Religion says is, really, quite bland and lazy.
(And to be frank I personally found your Prayer Book not very original either and a good example of 'Space Catholicism' over wide parts of it. To me it read like a Christian prayer book with a few names exchanged here and there, the theology behind those not fitting the Amarr religion in the slightest (alas I know a few things about theology) and with a few bits of PF sprinkled in. That said, I myself have had my unoriginal posts and found them quite nice at the moment, but reflection later on made me believe that they were a mistake and that I could've done better if I simply would have reflected on it before posting. So, no tears over shed water.)
As to the application of rules 2, 3 and 7 in roleplay: it doesn't mean that you Need to be nice in RP, it means that you aren't allowed to use your RP to circumvent the ban of behaviours as pointed out in these rules. There's plenty of space for us to be rude IC without being offensive OOC. So, yes, even if it's not what you want to do, there are the rules and you are supposed to play by them and that includes censoring yourself to some degree, if you want to Play EVE.
-
I don't think it's the 'natural way to rely on “what we have”', if it translates to being too lazy to make something original up. That is quite clear from the way how the various questions are answered by various religions. Simply going by what some confession of the Christian Religion says is, really, quite bland and lazy.
Maybe it is lazy, but how many people have heard of Guérard des Lauriers and his sedeprivationism thesis? I find it exciting to transfer it to another setting (Jamyl I). What annoys me more is “Space Liberalism”—in many cases I feel that the standards by which people judge and act derive from their personal (= contemporary, western) moral compass, which doesn’t really fit into a society where, according to prime fiction, Ammatar admirals are sentenced to death with their entire family enslaved.
(And to be frank I personally found your Prayer Book not very original either and a good example of 'Space Catholicism' over wide parts of it. To me it read like a Christian prayer book with a few names exchanged here and there, the theology behind those not fitting the Amarr religion in the slightest (alas I know a few things about theology) and with a few bits of PF sprinkled in. That said, I myself have had my unoriginal posts and found them quite nice at the moment, but reflection later on made me believe that they were a mistake and that I could've done better if I simply would have reflected on it before posting. So, no tears over shed water.)
The more happy I am happy that other people, like CCP Dropbear (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1388090), liked it. For sure I could have done better and I take your welcomed criticism as an invitation to improve.
As to the application of rules 2, 3 and 7 in roleplay: it doesn't mean that you Need to be nice in RP, it means that you aren't allowed to use your RP to circumvent the ban of behaviours as pointed out in these rules. There's plenty of space for us to be rude IC without being offensive OOC. So, yes, even if it's not what you want to do, there are the rules and you are supposed to play by them and that includes censoring yourself to some degree, if you want to Play EVE.
Your original point was that “Portraying the Amarr as 'Space Catholtics/Muslims' can easily hurt feelings of RL practitioners of those religions”—here I disagree.
-
I would probably use a Duchess of Palas, rather than the Duchess of Palas.
It's a relatively populated high sec system, might be aiming a bit high for a player character to claim some ownership of such a thing?
-
To be fair I do not like usual blatant parallels to catholism/islam/whateverIRL not because it can hurt the feelings of RL believers, but for other reasons.
It's not only towards the other Amarr RPers that's it's rude, but towards other RPers. It puts them into a delicate position where the boundary between RL and Eve starts to vanish heavily, where they will start to see the Amarr Church as the Catholic Church or the Islamic Religion (or whatever), and it will add a good deal of strain on their own RP when they will have to deal with it. More specifically, we have already faced a crapload of OOC/IC bleedovers coming from various players unable to make the difference between the Amarr religion and RL religions, against which they are already crusading IRL. Eventually it may be their fault to make that OOC/IC bleedovers, but by equating the Amarr religion to RL religions one makes their claims legitimate in some way and we eventually end up in an OOC war between atheists and believers instead of an IC war between two New Eden cultures. Eventually it's all the other Amarr RPers that have to deal with that, and it's not very fun. I have been rather disgusted over the years to see debates slipping into that OOC imbroglio, especially since that I try to play an (unusual, granted) believer when i'm a staunch atheist IRL. Imagine how I feel when I see other RL atheists being dicks with my character ICly for veiled but blatant OOC reasons. It's a damn mess.
I can understand that a lot of people have their own interpretations of PF, and that's what I like with Odelya (the Saudi prince analogy is rather good), but be cautious not to overdo it. It can be fun to take RL concepts and draw analogies to create something new ICly, but directly making copycats tends to make people cringe, especially since the scriptures do not point to so many similarities between RL religions and the Amarr religion. In the form, sure, but for the content ? Maybe some similarities with the old testament, but that's it. I'm not even sure that there is a clear mention of "God" in the few scriptures quotes we have (only on the more general PF). The only clear reference I have in mind is "The/Our Lord", which is rather different. There is no "at the beginning, God created..." but "The Lord bestowed upon us...". That is, one among many examples.
-
I had stated three reasons why I consider blatant parallels to catholism/islam/whateverIRL a bad thing.
1) it's unoriginal and oftentimes against the PF.
2) it can hurt practitioner's Feelings
3) it gets you easily into conflict with the TOS.
Lyn here gave a good example why it is a bad idea to muddy the Waters that Keep RP and RL seperated. The natural consequence is an " OOC war between atheists and believers instead of an IC war between two New Eden cultures", as he says. This is also why it conflicts with the TOS. You provoke OOC debates thinly veiled in RP by this.
Also, i think Silas has a good suggestion there,
-
The reference to the UCCM was in the old timeline.
True, not an offical entry. The timeline (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_timeline) can be found here (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_timeline).
Look at the second entry, 3805 AD: "The Conformists, a group within the Unified Catholic Church, settles on Soekheveti."
Then, look at the Scriptures (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Scriptures) entry or Dano Gheinok (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dano_Gheinok) in the EVELopedia (both of which should be CCP controled and approved) for the relation Conformists - Amarr.
Thanks to both of you for tracking that down - it's an interesting bit of lore I either never knew or had completely forgotten about. Was there also some reference to that church in the Amarr blurb from the original EVE intro movie?
-
Not in the old intro movie no. It started with "The first to emerge from the Dark Ages were the Amarr, a religious race blablabla"
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T84nrp08MWo
Still beautiful.
-
Eventually it's all the other Amarr RPers that have to deal with that, and it's not very fun. I have been rather disgusted over the years to see debates slipping into that OOC imbroglio, especially since that I try to play an (unusual, granted) believer when i'm a staunch atheist IRL. Imagine how I feel when I see other RL atheists being dicks with my character ICly for veiled but blatant OOC reasons. It's a damn mess.
Yup, this. I got whacked in the face with it and it was pretty blatantly OOC bleedover, cause the convo ended up in OOC that very day/around the time of the IC incident.
That + the slavery thing makes people not even bother to *skim* Amarr PF or info because when its implied its catholicism + slaves, we're instantly stereotyped as "US Southern plantation owners" who go to Church on Sunday cause he beat some slaves to death on Saturday.
I usually make it a rule to not go all evangelist IC but often find I have to because I need to correct people - no, we don't believe in instant forgiveness, no, this isn't true, no, that isn't true, to the point of jumping into idle 'rar hate Amarr' convo in the Summit that is 100% incorrect PF in regards to the faction - esspecially when it is like, Minmatar who were reclaimed in their background in the past so logically would have had the Pax shoved down their throats, and one would sssule they therefore should know that it isn't the New Testament.
-
Go for it Odelya! Just be prepared to get called out on the apparent disconnect between your character's pronouncements and actions (and the titles) by Ana and likely other Matari loyalists. I see fun times ahead!
And no, Ana will likely not let the whole sexy holo thing die. It's way too much fun to use as a stick to beat a moralist like Odelya over the head with. ;)
-
They'd actually probably get along fairly well in person. :P
I am sure they will! ;)
I would probably use a Duchess of Palas, rather than the Duchess of Palas.
It's a relatively populated high sec system, might be aiming a bit high for a player character to claim some ownership of such a thing?
I see your point, but now it’s done and I still think it is credible and not out of the possible. Palas is not the centre of the universe, it is just a system—among thousands. And maybe it is something honorific that Odelya is called Duchess of Palas; anyway, there won’t be any unrealistic statements on her part and the main focus of her environmental rp will be her estates on Khanid Prime. Odelya doesn’t care about her holdings, her sister is in charge.
Lyn, I can see the validity of your arguments and everything that could lead to OOC/IC bleedovers should best be avoided. The point Arista mentioned has escaped my imagination so far—as a European slavery doesn’t heavily connote with Southern plantation orders. I find your arguments very understandable and will try to mind them, although I think that Odelya never has “violated” the path of PF. (And by the way “God” is clearly mentioned a few time in the scriptures.)
Go for it Odelya! Just be prepared to get called out on the apparent disconnect between your character's pronouncements and actions (and the titles) by Ana and likely other Matari loyalists. I see fun times ahead!
And no, Ana will likely not let the whole sexy holo thing die. It's way too much fun to use as a stick to beat a moralist like Odelya over the head with. ;)
I am looking forward to it! And the holoreel was much fun! I think it is always a good idea to offer a weakness that others can exploit.
-
(And by the way “God” is clearly mentioned a few time in the scriptures.)
Yes scratch what I said on this, I noticed that a few days ago too. Probably bad memories.
-
The point Arista mentioned has escaped my imagination so far—as a European slavery doesn’t heavily connote with Southern plantation orders.
I think what Arista was trying to say is that EVE's largely Western audience is more likely to take the two biggest, most 'advertised' aspects of Amarrian culture - namely, slavery and how religion runs nearly every aspect of daily life - and draw parallels to American pre-CW slavery since it is more recent and usually has a higher profile than earlier forms of slavery, and from there to religion being used to excuse anything, bad or good (the latter of which we have way too much of in the US, which only serves to reinforce the Southern Plantation connection by way of the thought process 'staying' in the US).
-
And if not US southern plantations for Europe, then radical islamism.
-
The point Arista mentioned has escaped my imagination so far—as a European slavery doesn’t heavily connote with Southern plantation orders.
I think what Arista was trying to say is that EVE's largely Western audience is more likely to take the two biggest, most 'advertised' aspects of Amarrian culture - namely, slavery and how religion runs nearly every aspect of daily life - and draw parallels to American pre-CW slavery since it is more recent and usually has a higher profile than earlier forms of slavery, and from there to religion being used to excuse anything, bad or good (the latter of which we have way too much of in the US, which only serves to reinforce the Southern Plantation connection by way of the thought process 'staying' in the US).
If Europe is pert of the Western Audience, then in fact, morwen, a lot of people won't think of Southern US plantation owners first. Doesn't really mitigate the fact that about all US Americans certainly will. They are still a fair Portion of the EVE Players. Doesn't mean, as Lyn Points out, that Europeans don't have their negative stereotypes that are evoked by such.
-
Actually, I don't think of southern plantations at all. I live in the South, and that's a wholly different image from what I get when I think of Amarr slaves.
When I think of Amarrian slavery, I think of Ancient Rome. Golden fields of wheat tended by flocks of mostly white slaves (Ealurians, which are the majority - not Minmatar), scantily clad household servants in Princess Leia bikinis, the omnipresent sound of chanting and monk-music, and roaming pairs of slaver hounds occasionally fighting each other. Despite the slavery, I always get the impression of a very "golden" society, full of riches and luster that covers the corruption and grimdark.
U.S. Southern plantations were humid stinky farms of cotton and tobacco, ringed with spanish moss and oak trees, dirt roads, and sweaty people with a heavy drawl. Most slaves were black, and were dressed poorly if at all. It was grim, real, and pretty miserable. Hell, even living in modern times down here is miserable.
Maybe I've got rose tinted glasses, but I try pretty hard to avoid thinking of Amarr slaves anywhere near the equivalent of real slaves.
-
The point Arista mentioned has escaped my imagination so far—as a European slavery doesn’t heavily connote with Southern plantation orders.
I think what Arista was trying to say is that EVE's largely Western audience is more likely to take the two biggest, most 'advertised' aspects of Amarrian culture - namely, slavery and how religion runs nearly every aspect of daily life - and draw parallels to American pre-CW slavery since it is more recent and usually has a higher profile than earlier forms of slavery, and from there to religion being used to excuse anything, bad or good (the latter of which we have way too much of in the US, which only serves to reinforce the Southern Plantation connection by way of the thought process 'staying' in the US).
If Europe is pert of the Western Audience, then in fact, morwen, a lot of people won't think of Southern US plantation owners first. Doesn't really mitigate the fact that about all US Americans certainly will. They are still a fair Portion of the EVE Players. Doesn't mean, as Lyn Points out, that Europeans don't have their negative stereotypes that are evoked by such.
The first part of my post - "I think what Arista was trying to say is" - is the key part. I'm not making such a statement myself, just saying what it sounds like someone else was attempting to get at.
I sure as hell don't see cotton-picking pre-Civil War slavery plantations when I think of Amarrian slavery, and anyone who thinks I do probably should ask themselves how closely they've been paying attention to my posts and RP. :P
-
When I think of Amarrian slavery, I think of Ancient Rome. Golden fields of wheat tended by flocks of mostly white slaves (Ealurians, which are the majority - not Minmatar), scantily clad household servants in Princess Leia bikinis, the omnipresent sound of chanting and monk-music, and roaming pairs of slaver hounds occasionally fighting each other. Despite the slavery, I always get the impression of a very "golden" society, full of riches and luster that covers the corruption and grimdark.
Pretty much this!
-
There is a huge difference between a character made only to look comical and assumed that way and a character that tries to be serious, and definitely fails completely and looks comical instead.
'Character made to look comical' and 'character that tries to be serious' aren't mutually exclusive. Many times, Makkal has said something serious that I, the player, knew was foolish or silly.
-
Golden fields of wheat tended by flocks of mostly white slaves (Ealurians, which are the majority - not Minmatar)
Not to be a pedant, but :
The majority of slaves in the modern Empire remain of Minmatar ancestry.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Demographics
The largest of the Minmatar bloodlines in the Empire, the Brutor are also the second most populous bloodline.
The majority of Brutor in the Empire remain enslaved and make up the largest percentage of the Empire's slaves.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Amarr_Empire#Brutor
It's... Actually pretty unfortunate how much it matches the stereotype.
-
even if they are a majority, there's nothing saying that they aren't a compact majority, Gwen.
-
even if they are a majority, there's nothing saying that they aren't a compact majority, Gwen.
'fraid not. Unless you're talking about the Brutor in paticular.
While exact numbers are difficult to come by, because of the sheer number of slaves, it is estimated that between 50% and 75% of the Empire's current slave stock are Minmatar.
Pretty overwhelming majority. And, considering the majority of Minmatar bloodlines aren't white (And the one that is is explicitly said to be used for mostly technical labour instead of classic tending-the-fields stuff), well...
-
My mistake. I thought the Ealurians were the most common. Oh well.
-
My mistake. I thought the Ealurians were the most common. Oh well.
If it's any consolation, I wish you were correct.
Though also, regrettably, the Ealur are also black.
They have dark skin and dark, curly hair, but a wide range of eye colors, with lighter colors being somewhat common.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ealur
It's unfortunate how much CCP really has painted a picture of faux civil-war era slavery, at least in my mind.
-
My mistake. I thought the Ealurians were the most common. Oh well.
If it's any consolation, I wish you were correct.
Though also, regrettably, the Ealur are also black.
They have dark skin and dark, curly hair, but a wide range of eye colors, with lighter colors being somewhat common.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ealur
It's unfortunate how much CCP really has painted a picture of faux civil-war era slavery, at least in my mind.
Figures. Whatever. Have it your way, CCP!
(http://images.wikia.com/degrassi/images/9/90/Thats-racist.gif)
-
Yes, talking about the Brutor in particular. As far as I am Aware, the other Minmatar aren't black. If 50% to 75% of the slaves are Minmatar and 50% of these are Brutor, most slaves are still not black either.
Though, I agree that CCP kind'a painted a picture there thatb would remind many US people of Southern US slavery, for sure.
-
Yes, talking about the Brutor in particular. As far as I am Aware, the other Minmatar aren't black. If 50% to 75% of the slaves are Minmatar and 50% of these are Brutor, most slaves are still not black either.
Though, I agree that CCP kind'a painted a picture there thatb would remind many US people of Southern US slavery, for sure.
Starkmanir and Thukker are apparently also dark skinned. Ealurians too. So that's a pretty significant portion.
-
Starkmanir and Thukker are apparently also dark skinned. Ealurians too. So that's a pretty significant portion.
And the Krusual (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Krusual), as well, just to beat the horse a little more.
Seriously, what were they thinking?
-
I gues they were thinking about the same thing as when they designed the Caldari aesthetic as decidedly whitebread Space Nazi, or the distinctly Asian bloodlines as mystics or having a backwards caste society, or..
Really, most of the races and bloodlines at least started out as decidedly unselfconscious mash-ups of a few cultural and racial stereotypes.
-
There is a huge difference between a character made only to look comical and assumed that way and a character that tries to be serious, and definitely fails completely and looks comical instead.
'Character made to look comical' and 'character that tries to be serious' aren't mutually exclusive. Many times, Makkal has said something serious that I, the player, knew was foolish or silly.
That's a question of scale.
-
An initial sketch for the holdings of Odelya:
The d’Hanguest were given Palas VIII (a largely uninhabited oceanic world with some hotels and ships used for touristic purposes) after the realms of Khanid split from the Empire. They also lost Lustrevik as this time, as it remained Empire space. Yet Isin d’Hanguest, the Duke of Lustrevik and Baron of Palas VIII continued to call himself Duke of Lustrevik and Baron of Palas, later the order was revised and it became Duke of Palas and Lustrevik, with Lustrevik now often omitted, it was an accepted honorific title to compensate for his loss and paying for his loyalty. The family was originally a family of frontline solider (during the heyday of the Reclaiming), then admirals and officers (after the Kingdom was formed) and have now entirely evolved into bureaucrats and entrepreneurs, farming taxes, producing arms and so on. (I will provide a wiki entry for Odelya when I find the time). As a consequence I am not claiming that Odelya wields power over the lives of millions. But she is from an old and wealthy yet decaying family, spoiled and not really able to live up with her heritage, since originally she wasn’t the heir, but her older, deceased brother. She doesn’t really care for Palas or the family business (that’s what her sister does), but she certainly enjoys her wealth and family estates on Khanid Prime (mansions, gardens etc.).
-
I think that the thing that still might annoy me a little is the claim itself. It still means that her family was rather very powerful in the past, even if not now. It means that you still imprint something of a very large scale on PF history on who owns what at a cosmic scale.
I would be tempted if I were you to temper it by saying that her family was actually a contender for the titles in question. Which means others had claims as well, making all of it really murky...
-
And no, Ana will likely not let the whole sexy holo thing die. It's way too much fun to use as a stick to beat a moralist like Odelya over the head with. ;)
Please elaborate...
-
And no, Ana will likely not let the whole sexy holo thing die. It's way too much fun to use as a stick to beat a moralist like Odelya over the head with. ;)
Please elaborate...
Odelya may or may not be a pornstar. We like to believe it is the first option.
(http://i.imgur.com/U1Jq0MA.jpg)
-
I
require demand confirmed references to execute a thorough peer review of the above hypothesis.
-
I require demand confirmed references to execute a thorough peer review of the above hypothesis.
That's actually what Rodj Blake said. Many lols were had.
-
Screw Rodj. Sauce nao. NAO.
(because Anslol going after a pornstar holder is going to be funnier than Aldrith accidentlying his face with I-RED's mystery rocket fuel drink)
-
Took some digging.
Enjoy it Anslo (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=38506)
-
Took some digging.
Enjoy it Anslo (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=38506)
Can't. Stop. Laughing.
-
tl;dr someone in the family released a faked porn holoreel. It was a publicity stunt.
Edit: Okay, I misremembered. It wasn't an intentional leak, at any rate. More like "personal funtime gone horribly wrong due to shitty security systems~" :P
-
So she ISN'T a porn star?...aw man...there goes that story arc.
-
Man, I forgot how horrifying that thread got to by page 5. On page 6, things really go down hill :eek:
/thread derailed.
-
Wow from hilarity to feminism? Give me a break...almost as disappointing as not having a porno nun to chase :(
-
tl;dr someone in the family released a faked porn holoreel. It was a publicity stunt.
Well...
[Spoiler]She did make this porn movie, but it was supposed to be private... Apparently her systems were hacked and subsequently her sister used it to get rid of Odelya's claim to the holdings. This however proved impossible and now they've reconciled in a fragile peace. Morijah however acknowledges how much harm she has done to her family in general and tries to support Odelya as much as possibe. Yet she is still bitching and plotting against her behind the scenes...[/Spoiler]
Don't open the attachment if children or so are close...
On a more important matter, today I've starting typing the wiki entry for Odelya, and I want to finish it soon (man, I have PhD thesis to write!), input is very welcome:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Odelya_d%27Hanguest_(Character) (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Odelya_d%27Hanguest_(Character))
I think that the thing that still might annoy me a little is the claim itself. It still means that her family was rather very powerful in the past, even if not now. It means that you still imprint something of a very large scale on PF history on who owns what at a cosmic scale.
I would be tempted if I were you to temper it by saying that her family was actually a contender for the titles in question. Which means others had claims as well, making all of it really murky...
I really like that suggestion, Lyn, and have included it—although no such thing for Palas VIII. I want my own share of Paris Hilton: Leaked sex tapes, hotels, being a heiress... 8) :twisted:
-
(because Anslol going after a pornstar holder is going to be funnier than Aldrith accidentlying his face with I-RED's mystery rocket fuel drink)
Hahahaha!
-
Note To Self: Arrange 'Deep Negotiations' with the Kingdom, post haste!
-
Screw you I called dibs.
-
Neither of you even have experience with Khanid women. :P
This is going to be like watching a pack of retards trying to hump a doorknob, as Falcon used to be fond of saying.... >.>
-
WE'LL TAKE THIS ON, LIKE WE ALWAYS TAKE THINGS ON.
AFTER TWO PINTS OF LAGER AND A PACKET A CRISPS.
-
I hereby withdraw from this campaign, citing fundraising difficulties. I wish Candidate Anslol the best of lick!
.. I mean, luck.
-
Clear comms please! ;)
-
Note To Self: Arrange 'Deep Negotiations' with the Kingdom, post haste!
How deep ?
-
I humbly accept this concession from Kat and accept the position of President of the Odelya Legs-fo-Days Confederation.
-
Bio (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Odelya_d%27Hanguest_(Character)) finished. Your input is, as always, very welcome.
And Anslo should set Odelya to blue, if he wants to be successful!
-
Well if she wasn't so pompous he might!
Note to Readers: Better chance of hell freezing over than Odelya chilling out ................\o)
-
The holdings are coming into shape:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Duchy_of_Palas
Input, ideas, criticisms are welcome as always! :bear:
-
Why the porphorygenita (born in the purple)? Isn't that a *bit* high of a title for a duchess?
The hyperprotopansebastos "high best all honored" seems somewhat reasonable as an inflated title for an old dukedom and is a reasonable riff on the Komnenian model of titulature but the born in the purple room was a pretty exclusive title on the byzantine model.
I guess that since (As far as I know) there is no imperial purple for Amarr, it could be made a d'Hansguest tradition and just mean the ducal heir born while the parent was holder. The D'Hansguest colors would probably need to involve Porphory with that route.
-
I know Odelya has made no friends during her last actions. Now—that my PhD is nearing completion—I want to come back to EVE and RP with limited time.
While I like being Cersei Lannister I could also imagine to make Odelya less quarrelling. I would be interested: What did you like about Odelya’s prior RP?
Why the porphorygenita (born in the purple)? Isn't that a *bit* high of a title for a duchess?
The hyperprotopansebastos "high best all honored" seems somewhat reasonable as an inflated title for an old dukedom and is a reasonable riff on the Komnenian model of titulature but the born in the purple room was a pretty exclusive title on the byzantine model.
I guess that since (As far as I know) there is no imperial purple for Amarr, it could be made a d'Hansguest tradition and just mean the ducal heir born while the parent was holder. The D'Hansguest colors would probably need to involve Porphory with that route.
Exactly, I imagined it to be a d'Hanguest tradition that (just coincidentally!) fits to Odelya's habit of self-aggrandisement.
-
Saw your post on IGS! Welcome back to RP :) I look forward to the future adventures of the Lady Odelya.
-
Saw your post on IGS! Welcome back to RP :) I look forward to the future adventures of the Lady Odelya.
Thanks a lot! :bear:
-
Welp. You might have wanted to be less quarrelling... but that doesn't stop other people from quarrelling with you. :D
As for what I liked with RP with Odelya? Quarrelling. <.<
-
I like quarrelling with Samira. Your portrayal feels very convincing and “true to life.” Odelya cannot stop quarrelling; she is used to get everything she wants, but really lacked a strong hand in her education. She is a deeply hedonistic person, who is torn between zealously believing what she argues for and serious doubt about all of it—which makes her even more aggressive to the part she looses self-control (and hires mercenaries).
What I hope is that my arguments against to current (and apparently set) order of Amarr don’t get too “modernistic” and too “rational.” After all she holds most core values (the Reclaiming, chosen people, slavery etc.) to be true.