Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Ava Starfire on 11 Sep 2011, 09:44
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Ok, color me puzzled.
Based on the varying degrees of outcry over the topic, I just gotta ask... what?
Ok, so the governments of the cluster have decided to give people the power of a demigod, and then happily relinquish any right to police their actions, instead forming "CONCORD" a megapolice entity who seem to "punish" capsuleers only by destroying their ship, and ie, their crew, but who do absolutely nothing to the capsuleers themselves.
Really?
When you are a criminal, ie, have sec issues, or have standings issues, it is the enemy faction navy that attacks you, not CONCORD. That looks like theyre policing their own nations to me.
The idea that capsuleers are somehow magically immune to any and all consequences is just a bit hard to swallow... if a capsuleer lands, walks into an Amarrian "sunday school" class, and starts capping children, the local police are just gonna let them walk away, huh?
What would CONCORD actually DO to punish this person? Lower their sec status, seriously?
Game mechanics have limitations; people have to be allowed to be pirates, and gankers, or whatever, and not have their characters "taken away to jail/whatever" for doing so. That dosent mean that the RP community should take that as "how it is".
Confused. Seriously, do people think capsuleers are beyond any actual legal repercussions for their actions, beyond "Sec status"?
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Lore based this would be: Yes, they are above local jurisdiction. This is why they can only interact in a very limited way with planets ( Capsule interfaces are CONCORD controlled and don't allow more than that ) and are only allowed into special "Capsuleer" sections of stations, for example.
This is, of course, a highly cheesy way to print the limitations of game mechanics into some sort of background. Like "problems with station atmosphere" being the reason for the closed CQ door. On all stations. Everywhere.
As a roleplayer I wouldn't subscribe to the above points since interacting with other non-capsuleers is much, much more enjoyable and believable for character advancement and backgrounds.
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CCP often promotes Capsuleerdom as literal demi-god status in their advertisements. Their handling of PF reflects that this is also the case in the game: Capsuleers possess such unique social status and exponentially massive economical/political/power they are basically demi-gods.
The entire area is a massive gray zone however, as their promotion of demi-godhood quickly reaches the limit of game mechanics. Why can I not R&D my own superweapons, why can I not doomsday a planet, why can I not destroy a stargate, etcetra. Some of the Nullsec players I've RP'd with are firmly under the belief all Capsuleers everywhere are absolutely controlled by CONCORD. This is largely due to the fact that CONCORD both legitimizes player sovereignty, CONCORD has an omniscience awareness of every player owned station in existence regardless of its spatial location, and CONCORD ships can instantly obliterate anything that violates their patrolled space.
For whatever reasons you don't want to believe in that, a discordance appears in player understanding. It's not explicitly clear why Capsuleers exist as they do, and if they're even well regulated. As Desiderya mentioned about Capsuleer interfaces being controlled by CONCORD, that fits in line with the Nullsec players I mentioned about absolute control.
There is of course the whole game play mechanics vs prime fiction issue, but when either option completely wall bangs sensible logic I have to wonder what the point is to having it. Capsuleers are mercenaries that can do what they please, Capsuleers are controlled by the ultimate authority in some kind of xanatos gambit, bullshit mcguffins implying other things, etc...
tl;dr Yes, Ava. Most people outside of the roleplay community I talk with are under the impression Capsuleers have no legal problems other than security status - because it's the only thing represented in the game.
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what happens in space, stays in space.
On the ground though, people are subject to various laws. And possibly don't have the same legal protection as a normal person.
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:psyccp:
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Wasn't it in Jita 4-4 where it was suggested that security outside of capsuleer portions of stations are prone to simply killing any egger they come across - to avoid getting into the kind of clusterfvck that would arise from interacting with them like regular people?
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Wasn't it in Jita 4-4 where it was suggested that security outside of capsuleer portions of stations are prone to simply killing any egger they come across - to avoid getting into the kind of clusterfvck that would arise from interacting with them like regular people?
Yes.
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I'm not entirely sure why people stick so rigidly to game mechanics. Isn't RP in and of itself a metagame that throws game mechanics out the window? Most of our RP in bars and whatnot is not possible with the game mechanics anyway...
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It seemed to make sense to me that when a Capsuleer is outside the pod on the surface of a planet, they fall under the eyes and hands of whatever local authority there is. However, that does not mean those authorities have the right. While I believe there should be severe consequences from arresting Ava Starfire, I do agree that it should be possible. It would be one of those cases, or should have been, where as soon as she was detained, some agent of CONCORD would arrive and force the Empire into releasing her to their control or moderate any sort of legal actions.
Just because it's possible to arrest Ava on a planet, does not mean it should be done without any interference from those whose jurisdiction is being stepped on. It is quite clearly a CONCORD matter in space, which is the whole caveat here, because afaik, there is no mention in PF of Capsuleers ever going down to the surface of the planet and comitting a crime, nor of going down to a planet and being arrested for a crime.
I believe that anything can happen in a universe as big as New Eden. Different police forces will do different things. Sometimes very stupid things, like arresting a Capsuleer.
tl;dr
I think whoever pushed for Ava's arrest in the MIO should be burned at a stake for being stupid. He wrote the order, so now he has to pay the price for going too far.
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I sorta feel the same as Louella. I don't see how it would be an impossibility to detain a capsuleer once s/he is outside of the capsule either, since they wouldn't be able safely commit suicide to escape custody. Seems like the tricky part would be detaining a capsuleer in the first place.
Can't say I'm terribly familiar with the legal aspect of this, though.
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], which is the whole caveat here, because afaik, there is no mention in PF of Capsuleers ever going down to the surface of the planet and comitting a crime, nor of going down to a planet and being arrested for a crime.
Jita 4-4 states that this happens. Actually they dont arrest Capsuleers, they execute them.
Our characters "immortality" is based on a machine. Its not actually impossible to turn off a machine.
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Heh. I replied to the IGS thread, but I'm not sure I should have.
If an RPer says they're captured on a planet, then they're captured on a planet. We've had quite a few story arcs in the past about people being reckless and going to planets and being told how stupid they are for that - would all not make sense if going to planets is all pretty safe.
It gets a bit difficult when you see them flying around while they're supposedly in captivity. Or, as in my case, chatting with others on a channel as if nothing had happened. Am I supposed to ignore that? Or is it an RP hint to pick up on? If I react on it, am I being interpreted as "URDOINITRONG"? Can I expect them to "not play EVE", basically, "just" because of their RP?
It quickly becomes easier for me to just ignore the IC story than to try to interact with it and risk OOC upset.
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My reply to the IGS thread was specifically to demonstrate my character's incredulity to the story of the OP. None of it was meant as a "Your doin it wrong", because that sort of accusation is by default, an out of character accusation that breaks immersion.
Indeed, claiming that Julianus Soter's comment was invalid or 'wrong', in an out of character format, better fits the definition of the "your doin it wrong" accusation than what you reference, Ava.
Regarding the matters of prime fiction, there exists utterly no example in any news article, CCP-approved book, chronicle, or other Source that I'm aware of that references a planetary or faction police force arresting and permanently or otherwise detaining a capsuleer. CONCORD provides a carte blanche to capsuleer activities in Empire space, outside of actions towards or against other capsuleers, or that endanger the larger security of the Empires, which fund CONCORD, by supporting NPC pirate groups.
Faction police can fire on capsuleers directly at war with their respective factions, and can fine capsuleers vis-a-vis isk penalties for smuggling. That is all. They can't even touch the clone vats.
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Jita 4-4 states that this happens. Actually they dont arrest Capsuleers, they execute them.
Our characters "immortality" is based on a machine. Its not actually impossible to turn off a machine.
I specified going down to a planet, where CONCORD has very little authority. On stations (located in space, mind you), CONCORD still has authority.
Besides, I wasn't talking about being killed. I was talking about being arrested.
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I see it pretty simply.
CONCORD polices as regulates capsuleer activity.
DED - deals with criminal and civil law.
SCC - deals with financial and business law along with taxation.
The sovereign navies respond against capsuleers based on their own standings and the standings that the DED set, also known as your security status (if an egger has -5 to the Federation, DED guidelines say he's free to be fired on by the Federation Navy, SDII et cetera, they're also fired on if their overall DED security standing is low enough).
To me, Capsuleers are above territorial law, which is why they're so feared or revered by most. Outside the capsule, they're pretty much untouchable by the sovereign powers. The DED are responsible for the apprehension and processing of capsuleer criminals, hence the DED bounty system and the sec status system, and are sometimes assisted with the information from the relevant sovereign law enforcement agencies that may have intelligence on a given capsuleer. The DED do all the heavy work, and the actual physical work.
Effectively a capsuleer really has no nationality. They are loyal only to themselves, and those whom they choose to be. It doesn't make sense for me for them to fall under the jurisdiction of territorial law.
I also never really understood the whole Capsuleer slave thing... it makes NO sense at all to me whatsoever. I fail to see logically how any capsuleer can be enslaved.
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I see it pretty simply.
CONCORD polices as regulates capsuleer activity.
DED - deals with criminal and civil law.
SCC - deals with financial and business law along with taxation.
The sovereign navies respond against capsuleers based on their own standings and the standings that the DED set, also known as your security status (if an egger has -5 to the Federation, DED guidelines say he's free to be fired on by the Federation Navy, SDII et cetera, they're also fired on if their overall DED security standing is low enough).
To me, Capsuleers are above territorial law, which is why they're so feared or revered by most. Outside the capsule, they're pretty much untouchable by the sovereign powers. The DED are responsible for the apprehension and processing of capsuleer criminals, hence the DED bounty system and the sec status system, and are sometimes assisted with the information from the relevant sovereign law enforcement agencies that may have intelligence on a given capsuleer. The DED do all the heavy work, and the actual physical work.
Effectively a capsuleer really has no nationality. They are loyal only to themselves, and those whom they choose to be. It doesn't make sense for me for them to fall under the jurisdiction of territorial law.
Pretty much agree with all of this.
I also never really understood the whole Capsuleer slave thing... it makes NO sense at all to me whatsoever. I fail to see logically how any capsuleer can be enslaved.
I could think of a few reasons off the top of my head:
1) Mind control - its not unheard of in New Eden. As the captor, you'd better hope that the previous clone doesn't have any memory of your existence when their clone was last updated, or there might be some reprisal!
2) Extortion - A crafty individual has a coveted 'thing' of a capsuleer. Maybe it's a loved one such as a family member, or maybe information about a terrible secret, but its important enough to be someone's pawn until they can conjure a way out of the bargain.
3) Willing - Who knows what kind of deviants and perverts roam about in the dark-grim world of New Eden? Maybe some people like the idea of having no control...
^___^
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Jacus Roden is a capsuleer. As President, his nationality is Gallentean, and he is NOT above Federal Law. In the Human Painting, the Black Eagles attempted to detain him under federal law, with no DED intervention. yes, he is an NPC capsuleer but you point to one piece of fiction that says we can't play in a similar style, given half of RP is not bound to mechanics (such as Pc or npc)
Just sayin'
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Jacus Roden is a capsuleer. As President, his nationality is Gallentean, and he is NOT above Federal Law. In the Human Painting, the Black Eagles attempted to detain him under federal law, with no DED intervention. yes, he is an NPC capsuleer but you point to one piece of fiction that says we can't play in a similar style, given half of RP is not bound to mechanics (such as Pc or npc)
Just sayin'
I always got the impression the Black Eagles were something of a group that operated above and/or outside the law. The types of people who would break the law to enforce a political agenda for the sake of Federation security. If the Black Eagles do something, I wouldn't automatically assume it's something just anyone can do, and I wouldn't even assume it's legal. Kinda like the Spectres in Mass Effect.
As I said before, it's entirely possible that a Capsuleer walking around on the surface of the planet could be falsely arrested or kidnapped. Just because it can happen, doesn't mean it's within the law or that anything can come of it.
Besides, this RP came to a close with an ending that I deem acceptable. She was sentenced but the sentence cannot be enforced, or at least isn't being enforced.
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Effectively a capsuleer really has no nationality. They are loyal only to themselves, and those whom they choose to be. It doesn't make sense for me for them to fall under the jurisdiction of territorial law.
From the new Incarna new player experience:
Tribal sponsorhip is a longstanding tradition within the Minmatar Republic. Typically sponsorship is sought by an individual before embarking on a journey away from their tribe, or as part of a corporation's employment process. After a sometimes lengthy approval process, a Minmatar is then able to proceed with the full support of their tribal peers.
Typically, a citizen of the Republic will seek sponsorship from only their family tribe, and this is usually sufficient to last their lifetime, barring any dramatic changes. In some rare circumstances, sponsorship is granted from all of the seven tribes to particularly promising individuals.
In the unique case of the capsuleers, the seven tribes of the Republic have agreed to blanket-issue sponsorships as an attempt to encourage loyalty and cooperation.
A document representing submission to the authority of the Amarrian Empress, Jamyl Sarum.
Notably, the language surrounding capsuleer fealty has been significantly watered down, revealing that even the Amarr Empire is willing to acknowledge the reality of capsuleer freedom and autonomy.
I'm not sure whether to take these as evidence that there are ties to the various polities or as evidence that the polities want to create social-level ties where there are no legal ties. I'd kind of assumed it meant there was a bond, with citizenship, but perhaps on better terms than most people got.
I also never really understood the whole Capsuleer slave thing... it makes NO sense at all to me whatsoever. I fail to see logically how any capsuleer can be enslaved.
Yeah, well...
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Jacus Roden is a capsuleer. As President, his nationality is Gallentean, and he is NOT above Federal Law. In the Human Painting, the Black Eagles attempted to detain him under federal law, with no DED intervention. yes, he is an NPC capsuleer but you point to one piece of fiction that says we can't play in a similar style, given half of RP is not bound to mechanics (such as Pc or npc)
Just sayin'
Makes a good point.
Also the 4-4 chron made it obvious that capsuleers were not as untouchable as most would think.
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I agree with Verone, but to a certain point. If a capsuleer screws up bad enough on a planet under any authority, they will have to deal with said authorities. For example I am quite unsure that a capsuleer causing a rampage in Crystal Boulevard would get out untouched and all laughing his ass off.
Roden is a good example.
Effectively a capsuleer really has no nationality. They are loyal only to themselves, and those whom they choose to be. It doesn't make sense for me for them to fall under the jurisdiction of territorial law.
This contradicts itself to my opinion. If you are say, russian, and go fuck with people on US ground, you will be bound by their laws and fall under the jurisdiction of their authorities. Why would it be different for capsuleers ? Because they have no nationality ? That does not make any sense legal wise if they are under the legislation of CONCORD. And like IRL, when you are important enough (meaning, famous, rich, a the center of an ideological drama) like a capsuleer, there may be a lot of pressure put by DED for example to make the extradition of the said capsuleer become a reality.
Honestly Ava, I hesitated to make Lyn come in the cloister yesterday when you all discussed about that issue, but her opinion would have been quite simple : pull some strings in CONCORD/DED officials to extract Ava out of the grasp of the MIO and judge her themselves.
Main issue : we have no tools ingame to make someone lose sec status for well... "RP crimes on a planet".
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Holy crap, thanks for the replies!
For clarity, I didnt mean this in connection to the rather poorly planned and executed RP "what?" that happened over the weekend, nor do I believe there is any way, shape, or form to "enslave" a capsuleer. Is there a way to make them do what you want, via coercion, threats, extortion? Sure. Hold them indefinately? Not likely.
The reason I asked was I see this pop up in game all the time, and honestly, the responses range from "I fuel my MWD with Intaki children, deal with it, I am untouchable" to the more reasonable replies that seem prevalent here.
Are capsuleers above the law? In short, seems the answer is "no".
Can capsuleers clone when outside the pod? Seems mixed?
Can ground entities really do a whole lot to a capsuleer that dosent do something as dumb as what Ava did? Not really.
The point of it was what she did was dumb. People told her to be careful before, she didnt listen, and got a little education here. That whole mess, as far as I hope, is gone. The broader question of "What legal action can be taken against eggers?" was what i meant to ask, sorry for lack of clarity.
Ava, eating popcorn
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Hm, maybe capsuleers have no nationality and are above the laws of local authorities. But if agencies from said authorities manage to break my legs and pull me in for questioning who exactly is going to stop them?
I mean, if I answer to nobody when on top, who would fight for my rights when I am down?
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In my view, what it comes down to is the distinction between what can be done legally and what can be done practically. From a legal standpoint, the local government may not have the authority to haul in a capsuleer and hold him/her/it accountable for crimes.
From a practical standpoint, if a capsuleer is outside the pod, sending a few dozen armed men to pick them up doesn't seem like it would be that hard. This is why all of my RP characters not named Stecker travel with extensive (possibly excessive) security teams.
On the other hand, anyone taking the opportunity to abduct a capsuleer probably knows what they're doing is illegal and will avoid informing the public about it. Capsuleers are known to be unpredictable, violent, and excessively wealthy. Informing them that you've just taken one of their friends into custody with dubious or non-existant legal grounds seems like a good way to invite down the wrath of other demi-gods.
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Jacus Roden is a capsuleer. As President, his nationality is Gallentean, and he is NOT above Federal Law. In the Human Painting, the Black Eagles attempted to detain him under federal law, with no DED intervention. yes, he is an NPC capsuleer but you point to one piece of fiction that says we can't play in a similar style, given half of RP is not bound to mechanics (such as Pc or npc)
Just sayin'
The way I see it, NPC capsuleers are in a very different position to us.
As it's said in the NPE which has been pointed out in this thread, we're privately funded, with no corporate ties when we graduate successfully and become fully fledged eggers. To me the NPC "capsuleers" are those who're bound to a corporation, or sovereign state. By nature that makes them different to players.
While I agree with what people are saying, that if a capsuleer fucks up bad enough under the jurisdiction of a sovereign law enforcement agency, then they should be perfectly able to take them down or take them into custody, I would think that given the sheer power and influence an egger has, they'd want to be saying "fuck this shit" and handing the capsuleer over to the DED as soon as humanly possible to avoid red tape and bullshit.
As for capsuleers being untouchable, not at all. The way I see it is basically that in general terms an egger is above common law and governed by the DED. Once outside the range of their large scale operations and patrols however, say in deep lowsec or 0.0, then they're just as venerable as anyone else and only the fear of them is what generally keeps them out of trouble, unless some crazy bastard comes along.
With regards to nationality, I don't even bring real world earth politics into my train of thought when I'm considering how factions and corporations would react, or how the laws would be structured. Frankly, we're talking 21 millennia from now, where the human race has evolved so drastically that it has a completely different set of moral values and for a percentage of the population death is pretty much an inconvenience baring any major failure of the technology they're using, which is a slim chance at best. It's a totally different situation and current world legal policies really have no place in it.
Trying to compare a modern day country in terms of political policy, to a sovereign entity 21 thousand years from now that spans multiple star systems, multiple constellations and contains tens of trillions of people on hundreds of worlds is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.
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Trying to compare a modern day country in terms of political policy, to a sovereign entity 21 thousand years from now that spans multiple star systems, multiple constellations and contains tens of trillions of people on hundreds of worlds is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.
Kind of yes and kind of no, in my view.
In theory, yes. In reality future cultures would most likely be very, very different.
EVE, however, isn't really an attempt to create those future cultures. It's an extension of a range of current-world cultures and current-world-fiction tropes, as filtered through the eyes of a bunch of Icelandic game designers writing for a largely North American and European audience. Portions of the EVE-world have been incongruous or downright quaint because they show their real-world roots so strongly. So, in practice I think EVE is more a warped mirror of us than a real attempt at future cultures.
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We already had that discussion somewhere on these forum I dont remember where... Well, IRL comparisons are good for realism or coherence, to have common references, images, to check if something is credible, etc. But they are bad when they start to be reproduced integraly in the world of Eve.
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Dumb Ava... Y U so stoopid!
Anyway, I had fun with the little bit of RP this sparked for Aldy. It's always fun to yell at Minmatar and kick them out the door because you don't want to deal with them, even as a slave. Fun stuff!
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Here is how I have played this stuff works in the past:
Visiting international areas of stations
Stations where capsuleers can dock have an "international" supposedly "neutral" area for capsuleers and other visitors. It is supposedly under CONCORD authority, but in practice CONCORD can and does get law enforcement and maintenance help from locals in various degrees. (An Amarr station might have slave janitors, for example)
In addition to ship hangars and corporate offices, this area houses business catering to foreign visitors, varying from bars, cafes and hotels to repairshops and reprocessing services.
This is where visiting capsuleers are generally expected to spend their time. A capsuleer docking on an enemy station and unpodding but staying on this international area is generally fairly safe, as long as they stay out of trouble.
Visiting the parts of a station that are under a nation's sovreignty
With the exception of the the international area, most of a station is under the owning nation's sovreignty, and there national laws apply. There are checks and customs offices between the two areas, so one can for example get caught drug trafficking if trying to smuggle some personal hangar stores out of the international area.
A capsuleer in good standing with a faction can generally visit safely. (Although having some personal security can be advisable, as would be normal for baselining celebrities) A criminal is a criminal, and an outlaw is an outlaw. That said, especially in low or null sec the locals might not care that much about where one comes from, as long as the capsuleer is not nosy and his money is good. ;)
I play that the capsuleer legal status in areas of national sovreignty is somewhat unclear, and that theoretically a capsuleer can possibly demand for CONCORD intervention if arrested. However, Eve world is clearly a quite dark and corrupted place, and so I imagine theoretical rights and practical rights can differ a lot - demads for CONCORD intervention might "get passed on in due time and with due process" depending on the pleasure of the local authorities doing the arresting. Jita 4-4 chronicle also suggests that "Oops, my gun went off accidentally! How sad!" might be what happens often when local authorities feel like stopping a capsuleer but not like dealing with the associated mess.
And finally, even should such extradition demands to CONCORD make it thorough, I expect CONCORD won't be very keen to strain national relations by forcibly extracting some Don't-you-know-who-I-am?!? who just had to insist on leaving the designated safe areas and then proceed to getting themselves in trouble with local law. I figure they will most likely file a query by proper channels, and then accept the answer they get at face value. ("Oh, you don't know where he is? Tell us if you find out, please. Thank you for your time, and pleasure doing business with you!")
I am under the impression major part (if not all) of CONCORD funding comes from the four nations, and CONCORD has not exactly given the impression of being overly concerned over the fate of any single individual capsuleer.
I personally figure the most efficient (and likely safest for the prisoner) way of extraditing such a detained capsuleer would be hefty bribes to everybody even remotely involved - CONCORD officials, detaining local law enforcement etc. Everybody gains something, and if something illegal might have happened, nobody has the motive to go dig it up again.
Visiting planets
I expect CONCORD generally has very little authority over what goes on on planets.
I have played that capsuleer comms implants do not work from planets to space - one needs access to other communication equipment.
This means a capsuleer on enemy planet would be effectively stranded. Too bad for them.
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Are capsuleers above the law? In short, seems the answer is "no".
Can capsuleers clone when outside the pod? Seems mixed?
Can ground entities really do a whole lot to a capsuleer that dosent do something as dumb as what Ava did? Not really.
My take on these:
Capsuleers are not above the law, but getting a capsuleer to answer for their crimes can be quite hard unless the capsuleer does something stupid or wants to be caught. All they need to do is stay in space and on the international areas of the stations.
Capsuleers can't clone outside the pod. (I know different people play this in various ways. The people I mostly play with generally play that backup clones do not exist or at least are not available to average capsuleers. CCP has said they intend to clarify this in the future.)
I am not familiar with the details of "Ava arrest" storyline so no comment about it. :)
I have played Minmatar capsuleers on Amarr planets can get arrested, implants surgically removed, enslaved and killed (and so on) with only somewhat weightier pretexts than non-capsuleer Minmatar on those planets. It might (or might not) be borderline illegal, but who will stop them? The Speakers of Truth?
Of course the press will make noise if they learn of it. Amarr press will likely approve: "A terrorist converted and now willingly serving God!". Minmatar press will disapprove: "Freedom fighter wrongfully detained!". CONCORD might go: "Oops. Well, she doesn't have implants any more. Not a capsuleer, not our problem."
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I expect CONCORD generally has very little authority over what goes on on planets.
Maybe. But there is this (emphasis mine):
The DED’s jurisdiction is limited to space and this has often put severe limits on their operations. However, in recent years, the DED has increasingly been authorized to operate in stations and on planets, and the result is a much more effective fight against organized crime. But even if the DED is getting more and more efficient in dealing with criminals within empire borders, they have yet to gain any significant foothold in the outer regions where empire presence is almost non-existent. Also, the power of DED, and in fact the whole of CONCORD, differs widely between the various empires, or even between different regions of any one empire, as local governments or magnates often oppose strong DED presence for one reason or another.
To me this says two things: 1. DED tries to do its job wherever capsuleers may go, and are slowly gaining the ability to do so, but, 2. the local governments still resist such intrusions (maybe) because they already have their own police forces available. This might be akin to a city police force having to put up with the FBI coming in to "take over the investigation".
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Are capsuleers above the law? In short, seems the answer is "no".
Can capsuleers clone when outside the pod? Seems mixed?
Can ground entities really do a whole lot to a capsuleer that dosent do something as dumb as what Ava did? Not really.
My take on these:
Capsuleers are not above the law, but getting a capsuleer to answer for their crimes can be quite hard unless the capsuleer does something stupid or wants to be caught. All they need to do is stay in space and on the international areas of the stations.
Capsuleers can't clone outside the pod. (I know different people play this in various ways. The people I mostly play with generally play that backup clones do not exist or at least are not available to average capsuleers. CCP has said they intend to clarify this in the future.)
I am not familiar with the details of "Ava arrest" storyline so no comment about it. :)
I have played Minmatar capsuleers on Amarr planets can get arrested, implants surgically removed, enslaved and killed (and so on) with only somewhat weightier pretexts than non-capsuleer Minmatar on those planets. It might (or might not) be borderline illegal, but who will stop them? The Speakers of Truth?
Of course the press will make noise if they learn of it. Amarr press will likely approve: "A terrorist converted and now willingly serving God!". Minmatar press will disapprove: "Freedom fighter wrongfully detained!". CONCORD might go: "Oops. Well, she doesn't have implants any more. Not a capsuleer, not our problem."
I rather liked both your posts Isobel, the only difference of opinion we'd have would be the cloning outside the pod thing. I know the 'softclone' thing tends to be a point of contention. Among Rpers, but it definitely makes me feel more comfortable to have that safety net, because I feel like I can let something happen to the character without getting all butthurt OOCly. I try to keep it balanced though, when a softclone is activated, you lose all your memories up until the last time you backed up the softclone (which would be the last time you updated you clone in station) Unless you can get the memorycell from your old body, at which point, you could have all your memories back.
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Just my two pennies:
Planetside, CONCORD can't do jack to protect you, for a few simple reasons.
1) CONCORD is a space based entity, it does not posses vast reserves of ground troops, just a handful of shipboard marines.
2) Therefore, when capsuleer matters go planetside, they can spout rhetoric, and do the diplomatic thing, but they cant really bring the empires to heel because they simply lack military power.
3) When capsuleers go planetside (and they do go planetside, regardless of anyones protesting about how we're demi-gods and dont need to) they do not wander around with massive neon signs that say "HELLO! MASS MURDERING DEMI-GOD CAPSULEER HERE!". Why, because they'd get lynched, kidnapped or whatever. i.e. they do not wander around flashing CONCORD protection documents or anything to give away who they are.
4) There are definitely more important things to the empires than obeying CONCORD directives. If they want a capsuleer badly enough, they will go and take them when the opportunity arises.
So in this instance, i.e. a high profile member of the opposing militia coming down to the planet, I think its perfectly reasonable to say that the empire would be all "screw you CONCORD" at this point.
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Also consider what would happen if local law enforcement just let everyone who said "whoah, did you know I'm a capsuleer" off the hook?
Since we're a few hundred thousand among hundreds of billions, The law enforcement is bound to be a tad sceptical when someone tries to claim immunity due to being a capsuleer
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See, I agree with N'maro here mostly. I've always sort of pictured it like the various branches of law enforcement here in the US.
You have the city police which only have jurisdiction to arrest, give citations and patrol around the city.
You have the State Troopers which have the above jurisdictions throughout the state, enforcing the local laws.
Then you have federal agencies that sort of operate on a 'special clearance' level and can intervene with either of the above jurisdictions in matters that pertain to them, such as the FBI, the Secret Service, etc.
CONCORD in this case would essentially leave jurisdiction matters on planets to the local governments of those planets/empires. And unless they stepped in, flashed their 'special clearance' badges and took the capsuleer into their own custody, the local government does whatever it wants to.
And I really don't see CONCORD going out of its way to intervene on a capsuleer's behalf unless it's something extremely important or they're paid off.
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Also consider what would happen if local law enforcement just let everyone who said "whoah, did you know I'm a capsuleer" off the hook?
Since we're a few hundred thousand among hundreds of billions, The law enforcement is bound to be a tad sceptical when someone tries to claim immunity due to being a capsuleer
The implant jacks on your back tend to lend a bit more credibility to your claim.
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Also consider what would happen if local law enforcement just let everyone who said "whoah, did you know I'm a capsuleer" off the hook?
Since we're a few hundred thousand among hundreds of billions, The law enforcement is bound to be a tad sceptical when someone tries to claim immunity due to being a capsuleer
The implant jacks on your back tend to lend a bit more credibility to your claim.
In an age where every man and his dog seems to have access to implants, not to mention half decent cosmetic surgery, I'd still say the average overworked, underpaid officer of the law isnt going to stop around to have an "are you who you say you are debate". Plus, by dint of the fact you're needing to prove you're a capsuleer, we can presume you've broken the law, therefore it doesnt really matter if you're a capsuleer, becuase you're out of pod and have broken the law.
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I suspect when they run your ID, capsuleer shows up. I also see CONCORD as having jurisdiction over eggers and most locals would want nothing to do with it.
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Again, billions of people in each Empire, it is highly unlikely that anywhere other than heavily populous have access to a sophisticated database containing that much detail.
Also, would they really run ID checks outside of urban centres? I mean perhaps in the state where things are more compacted, or in the fed where things are high tech, but really, how high tech and thorough do you expect the Republic or Empire's version of the local "bobby" or state trooper to be? Considering there are many backwater areas as well where the only manifestation of the law might be some corrupt local magistrate with no care to ask who you are.
Plus its not like they have instant access to CONCORD databases.
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Memorycell?
wat?
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Also consider what would happen if local law enforcement just let everyone who said "whoah, did you know I'm a capsuleer" off the hook?
Since we're a few hundred thousand among hundreds of billions, The law enforcement is bound to be a tad sceptical when someone tries to claim immunity due to being a capsuleer
The implant jacks on your back tend to lend a bit more credibility to your claim.
In an age where every man and his dog seems to have access to implants, not to mention half decent cosmetic surgery, I'd still say the average overworked, underpaid officer of the law isnt going to stop around to have an "are you who you say you are debate". Plus, by dint of the fact you're needing to prove you're a capsuleer, we can presume you've broken the law, therefore it doesnt really matter if you're a capsuleer, becuase you're out of pod and have broken the law.
Capsuleer implants are pretty distinctive and tend to stand out from anything else on the market. Just sayin'.
:)
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3) When capsuleers go planetside (and they do go planetside, regardless of anyones protesting about how we're demi-gods and dont need to) [....]
Do you have any evidence of this, or is this an assertion of your own?
Serious question. I play that Mata spends time with her kin planetside, but there are times when I read what comes out of CCP and think that that's not what they intend.
(I gave an only-half-joking list of reasons why we might not interact with planets (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2249.msg29931#msg29931) a while back, and expanded on that later (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2249.msg30595#msg30595).)
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When you get arrested, even in small town nowhere USA, law enforcement runs ID. It is beyond ludicrous to think that there is FTL comms and instantaneous travel across light years, and flash copying of neural pathways, but no database to run an ID through. That's silly.
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When you get arrested, even in small town nowhere USA, law enforcement runs ID. It is beyond ludicrous to think that there is FTL comms and instantaneous travel across light years, and flash copying of neural pathways, but no database to run an ID through. That's silly.
Oke doke, lets do some simple number crunching.
In the US there are 300 million + people. These people are spread out over 50 states and counties within the states, creating at least 3 different stages of administration. Worldwide, there are 6 Billion + humans spread across approximately 190 countries. This create the first issue, while you in the US have these national databases, effective police and keep files on citizens, do they even come close to this in place like Madagascar? Law enforcement there is as corrupt as it gets, and administration is beyond chaos. On a highly populated terrestrial planet, maybe you'd get the US style treatment, but on some backwater rock with some local idiot as the law?
Now lets consider the world of EVE. Instead of 6 billion, you're dealing with Hundreds of billions, most residing in four empires, each of which inhabits hundreds of planets, on each planet, depending on population, there would be regions, sub-regions, districts, housing any number of people. The numbers alone make a single database for each empire simply impractical. At most, for non-capsuleers you'd have a regional database in the most populous regions. Perhaps a single database for the most wanted, but not for every local with a DUI. Certainly for capsuleers, this database would be separate, i.e. not on the standard checklist for law enforcement. Even with the advanced tech, the sheer numbers make keeping tabs on ALL citizens impractical and unlikely. CONCORD, yes because theres only a few thousand of us.
I mean, this is a world where humanity is spread over every planet from massive industiral worlds of billions to worlds with settlements of just a few hundred. Its simply not possible equate it to the world we live in now. There are links, but nothing to equate with.
It is beyond ludicrous to think that our models of government and law enforcement could possibly work over an area as massive and diverse as EVE. On single planets, maybe. Solar sytems at a stretch. But over a whole Empire? That's silly.
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Also consider what would happen if local law enforcement just let everyone who said "whoah, did you know I'm a capsuleer" off the hook?
Since we're a few hundred thousand among hundreds of billions, The law enforcement is bound to be a tad sceptical when someone tries to claim immunity due to being a capsuleer
The implant jacks on your back tend to lend a bit more credibility to your claim.
In an age where every man and his dog seems to have access to implants, not to mention half decent cosmetic surgery, I'd still say the average overworked, underpaid officer of the law isnt going to stop around to have an "are you who you say you are debate". Plus, by dint of the fact you're needing to prove you're a capsuleer, we can presume you've broken the law, therefore it doesnt really matter if you're a capsuleer, becuase you're out of pod and have broken the law.
Capsuleer implants are pretty distinctive and tend to stand out from anything else on the market. Just sayin'.
:)
Mostly I meant someone could graft some metal that looks like the capsule jacks on to you, and security would be none the wiser. Plus, not all law enforcement would be polite enough to give you a neck inspection prior to putting you in a cell.
Fair point though, on a more advanced planet that would lead to your release pretty sharpish. Whenever they do a medical test, anyway.
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3) When capsuleers go planetside (and they do go planetside, regardless of anyones protesting about how we're demi-gods and dont need to) [....]
Do you have any evidence of this, or is this an assertion of your own?
Serious question. I play that Mata spends time with her kin planetside, but there are times when I read what comes out of CCP and think that that's not what they intend.
(I gave an only-half-joking list of reasons why we might not interact with planets (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2249.msg29931#msg29931) a while back, and expanded on that later (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2249.msg30595#msg30595).)
Mostly just simple deduction and established precedent really.
Granted, release of WiS and Dust 514 probably muddles up a good deal. For instance, we're supposed to be able to knock about with Dust Mercs on "war barges" or stations, so wouldnt we be getting all the planetside bugs? Of course not, theres probably a decon camber. But doesnt that mean it wont work in reverse too? If Dust players can come stationside, what is preventing us from going planetside? Plus theres the masive technology plothole device which can be whipped out here, i.e. would planet atmospheres be so lethal considering the type of medical services available to capsuleers?
Plus if we really cant go planetside, this buggers up a whole lot of peoples RP.
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Mostly just simple deduction and established precedent really.
Deduction from what? Precedent in character roleplay or in prime fiction?
Plus if we really cant go planetside, this buggers up a whole lot of peoples RP.
Correct. That is, however, not an argument.
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I guess I figured if the technology existed to scan hulls from a distance of miles, and clone to the extent that they do, keeping a database of hundreds of billions of people, even trillions, would be pretty easy. I am weird that way.
As for all this other stuff about planetside interaction, dunno. I hope it isn't impossible, b/c most of the RP-ers I know have been planetside a lot. I can't think of any reason not to.
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It seems to me that if the Amarrian government had the opportunity to get a hold of me when I'm away from my pod and not in the capsuleer-only section of a station, they would take fullest advantage of it. They might not run around announcing it to the cluster, but if they could knock me off or lock me up quietly, I'm sure they would. It addition to the punishment they currently serve out to us, CONCORD is really a method to keep the capsuleer population in check. Say the Amarr arrest me. Matarki and Miz come racing to my rescue with their hair on fire (cause it's scary). As soon as they open fire on the MoIO station where I'm being held, BAM! Concordoken. Thus protecting the Empire from the evil capsuleer, regardless of their (the emipres) actions. Even the Elder Fleet had to disable Concord before they could attack.
Now, to look at it from another side of the same coin. It also seems logical that if the Republic Security Services brought me in for questioning, I would be perfectly willing to accept that. I fight for the Republic, and I can be reasonably sure they're not going to "bite the hand that feeds them", as it were. I even RP'd something similar a while back, with the RSS impounding my hangar and confining me to my quarters (and forcing me to stare at the door... :P).
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According to PF, ungifted people are very intimidated by capsuleers due to their rarity and demigodness. They do encounter each other. Planetary authorities can be just as intimidated as all the rest.
As for going to planets, Kazzzi owns one in capsuleer sov space. He goes to it all the time and is starting a colony of renegade Amarrians. Concord isn't stopping him. I feel that a lot of stuff that people do outside game mechanics is often wrongly considered godmoding, but in Kazzzi's case it might really be godmoding since he may very well start his own religion. :lol:
I feel that it is time to get rid of Concord and just let each Empire take over their own police duties. Concord has too much of the feel that you get when a DM kills your character for traveling too far off the plotline.
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According to PF, ungifted people are very intimidated by capsuleers due to their rarity and demigodness. They do encounter each other. Planetary authorities can be just as intimidated as all the rest.
As for going to planets, Kazzzi owns one in capsuleer sov space. He goes to it all the time and is starting a colony of renegade Amarrians. Concord isn't stopping him. I feel that a lot of stuff that people do outside game mechanics is often wrongly considered godmoding, but in Kazzzi's case it might really be godmoding since he may very well start his own religion. :lol:
I feel that it is time to get rid of Concord and just let each Empire take over their own police duties. Concord has too much of the feel that you get when a DM kills your character for traveling too far off the plotline.
The thing about Concord is it provides some sort of logic for why pilots from otherwise hostile nations can fly into enemy space and dock at enemy stations (assuming faction standings with the relevant faction aren't nuked). Of course where it gets weird is faction warfare. Where you can dock at enemy militia and fleet/navy stations for some odd reason, as opposed to having their sentries open up on you. But FW is full of immersion killing little details like this.
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The thing about Concord is it provides some sort of logic for why pilots from otherwise hostile nations can fly into enemy space and dock at enemy stations (assuming faction standings with the relevant faction aren't nuked).
Docking rights based on standings would be awesome, but CCP is usually afraid to touch the archaic hieroglyphics used for standings coding.
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The thing about Concord is it provides some sort of logic for why pilots from otherwise hostile nations can fly into enemy space and dock at enemy stations (assuming faction standings with the relevant faction aren't nuked).
Docking rights based on standings would be awesome, but CCP is usually afraid to touch the archaic hieroglyphics used for standings coding.
The trouble with completely locking someone out of an enemy station is that if a person wants to change sides how do they work standings back to the point where they aren't persona non grata?
Kinda odd that enemies of the state can board military stations though. For all that we are tooling around in warships that sort of thing should be a privilege of folks that a faction (or at least the corp in question) feels it can trust implicitly.
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CCP does not want to affect the gameplay for players outside of FW, so if any docking right stuff would happen, it would be about FW participants only.
There were thoughts about that in the beginning of FW. The "more likely" idea was to simply disable all services in a station for a member of an enemy faction. Haven't heard anything about that anymore, though.
CCP hints and implications have it that FW will be looked at when low-sec is being reworked sometime next year (winter?). *crossesfingers*
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The thing about Concord is it provides some sort of logic for why pilots from otherwise hostile nations can fly into enemy space and dock at enemy stations (assuming faction standings with the relevant faction aren't nuked).
Docking rights based on standings would be awesome, but CCP is usually afraid to touch the archaic hieroglyphics used for standings coding.
The trouble with completely locking someone out of an enemy station is that if a person wants to change sides how do they work standings back to the point where they aren't persona non grata?
Kinda odd that enemies of the state can board military stations though. For all that we are tooling around in warships that sort of thing should be a privilege of folks that a faction (or at least the corp in question) feels it can trust implicitly.
lowsec stations? there's no faction police in lowsec either, so being able to dock at enemy faction lowsec stations would allow working up standings.
militia stations would be exception, probably, except in occupied systems. e.g. enemies of gallente shouldn't be able to dock in FDU stations. possibly even extend so that you have to be FDU to dock in FDU stations. but if the STPRO occupy a federation system, then they can dock at the FDU station in it.
but then again, there's ideas about the principle of a sandbox, i.e. a player can do what they want. But then again, it's a sandbox with borders and some rules.
it's a bit of a mess really :s
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Also consider what would happen if local law enforcement just let everyone who said "whoah, did you know I'm a capsuleer" off the hook?
Since we're a few hundred thousand among hundreds of billions, The law enforcement is bound to be a tad sceptical when someone tries to claim immunity due to being a capsuleer
The implant jacks on your back tend to lend a bit more credibility to your claim.
In an age where every man and his dog seems to have access to implants, not to mention half decent cosmetic surgery, I'd still say the average overworked, underpaid officer of the law isnt going to stop around to have an "are you who you say you are debate". Plus, by dint of the fact you're needing to prove you're a capsuleer, we can presume you've broken the law, therefore it doesnt really matter if you're a capsuleer, becuase you're out of pod and have broken the law.
Capsuleer implants are pretty distinctive and tend to stand out from anything else on the market. Just sayin'.
:)
Mostly I meant someone could graft some metal that looks like the capsule jacks on to you, and security would be none the wiser. Plus, not all law enforcement would be polite enough to give you a neck inspection prior to putting you in a cell.
Fair point though, on a more advanced planet that would lead to your release pretty sharpish. Whenever they do a medical test, anyway.
I should imagine that given the level of security scanning we have now, 20 millennia into the future there are probably handheld devices as common as a cellphone for taking full biometric scans of an individual.
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Also consider what would happen if local law enforcement just let everyone who said "whoah, did you know I'm a capsuleer" off the hook?
Since we're a few hundred thousand among hundreds of billions, The law enforcement is bound to be a tad sceptical when someone tries to claim immunity due to being a capsuleer
The implant jacks on your back tend to lend a bit more credibility to your claim.
In an age where every man and his dog seems to have access to implants, not to mention half decent cosmetic surgery, I'd still say the average overworked, underpaid officer of the law isnt going to stop around to have an "are you who you say you are debate". Plus, by dint of the fact you're needing to prove you're a capsuleer, we can presume you've broken the law, therefore it doesnt really matter if you're a capsuleer, becuase you're out of pod and have broken the law.
Capsuleer implants are pretty distinctive and tend to stand out from anything else on the market. Just sayin'.
:)
Mostly I meant someone could graft some metal that looks like the capsule jacks on to you, and security would be none the wiser. Plus, not all law enforcement would be polite enough to give you a neck inspection prior to putting you in a cell.
Fair point though, on a more advanced planet that would lead to your release pretty sharpish. Whenever they do a medical test, anyway.
I should imagine that given the level of security scanning we have now, 20 millennia into the future there are probably handheld devices as common as a cellphone for taking full biometric scans of an individual.
Doesn't The Burning Life specifically mention something of that nature early on in the book? Security key-cards that biometrically scan the user to identify if they're legal or not.
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Doesn't The Burning Life specifically mention something of that nature early on in the book? Security key-cards that biometrically scan the user to identify if they're legal or not.
I think that's rather late in the book, during the 'infiltration'.
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Doesn't The Burning Life specifically mention something of that nature early on in the book? Security key-cards that biometrically scan the user to identify if they're legal or not.
I think that's rather late in the book, during the 'infiltration'.
How did that go? Kind of skint atm so cant buy it.
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My main problem with this technology argument is that everyone seems to take a view that technology simplifies everything. In reality, excuse poor metaphor, human development in technology is like a growing tree, it branches outwards. Any new tech is bound to have issues all around it.
*grumblegrumblegrumble
But anyhow, my other point, which I think is the more relevent is that law enforcement and government is massively varied across the cluster. We cant make blanket statements about the entire cluster regarding this.
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How did that go? Kind of skint atm so cant buy it.
MAJOR BOOK SPOILERS BELOW.
Well at the end of The Burning Life;
[spoiler]The two main characters team up and infiltrate their way through the highest security sections of a station all the way to the Capsuleer's section, first using one of the main character's credentials as a mission agent, then posing as repair people that work in the capsule room.
As they got higher, they were scanned dozens of times before even getting to the actual guard checkpoints. On a full size station in the highest security sections though, this is to be expected.[/spoiler]
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But anyhow, my other point, which I think is the more relevent is that law enforcement and government is massively varied across the cluster. We cant make blanket statements about the entire cluster regarding this.
Oh, I agree completely in that respect. I'm sure that in terrible backwater places the security amounts to a couple of guys on stag at the gatehouse smoking a crack pipe with a couple of angry hounds tied up on leashes beside them.