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[Lyn Farel]

Hello,

I am really wondering what kind of scale in isk you would put on the value of the domain of a minor Holder ? How much isk would it be worth (knowing that isk are colossal amounts of currencies) ? From what amount to what amount could it vary ? For example, a remote little property in a remote region ? A big property in a remote region ? A small property in a central system ? A large one ?

Would like to have feelings on this.

[Mitara Newelle]

That's a tough one to figure.  There's no relation of ISK to baseliner currency that I know of.  It would be interesting to know though.

[Vincent Pryce]

IIRC it was stated somewhere that 10k isk is the yearly salary of lowerclass baseliner. Wish I could remember the source.

[Lyn Farel]

Well, thats a start.

I could take that salary into account and deduct out of it an average price if I compare it to the price of say... an island IRL. Looks like small ones start at 2-5M $. Considering here its still a bigger holding, it could escalate to, say, 100M $ respectable island, or archipelago, in a remote region ? Then, 10k isk per year for a lowerclass could be worth more or less the same in $ at least in standard western countries (not the richest though).

Though 50-100M isk is still a lot, even if it seems reasonable for a little domain (not that little though, a respectable amount of lands, but very remote and quite derelict). After all if I am asking this is also because I am simulating the sale for basically an IC location. So I feel like scamming people out of it. :p

[Katrina Oniseki]

I heard a much lower quite, Vincent. Something like a couple hundred ISK can retire a baseliner.

[Morwen Lagann]

Could poke around on the interwebs a bit, but I would imagine it varies from planet to planet regardless of the numbers given - and that assumes that those planets have a single currency to exchange with, which I don't imagine would be the case everywhere.

[lallara zhuul]

I doubt that a trading for a domain is as easy as giving someone cash for it.

I think that only in the Empire and the Republic there could be a chance for a private individual to acquire domain from the government, even then there would be strings attached.

In the feudal society of the Empire there would be the subservience to your feudal lord, and even then if you displeased your superiors you would lose the domain that you hold.
In the republic the domain would probably be given to you as a caretaker for that domain, but in the end the Tribe would own it.

In the State and the Federation things would be different as well.
The government would want constant income from that domain to their coffers, hence they would only give them to corporations that actually pay taxes and are dedicated to developing the domain in an economic way so that it will start giving more and more income to the government.
Basically in this case the building of infrastructure and means of generating income is given to a separate entity within the structure of the society that will take the risks in the short term but will give the same income in the long term.

I guess what I am aiming at, is that you can buy a worthless piece of rock for a shitload of cash and put up a small station there, but you would have to pay the governmental institutions to have their own lackeys looking over your shoulder all the time.

If you want your own Playboy mansion of neverending debauchery where everything goes, you go to 0.0

Which has its own problems, warlords, raiders and all that jazz.

[Akrasjel Lanate]

You can have a whole planet for FREE... just go to WH space and find one what fits you. 

[Lyn Farel]

I heard a much lower quite, Vincent. Something like a couple hundred ISK can retire a baseliner.

It rings a bell for me too...

Could poke around on the interwebs a bit, but I would imagine it varies from planet to planet regardless of the numbers given - and that assumes that those planets have a single currency to exchange with, which I don't imagine would be the case everywhere.

Well here it is still a Holder's property, so it is probably falling under the care of the highest administrative authorities (here, the Ammatar Consulate). They could even just accept isk, and not a local currency. Why I am basing it on currencies vs isk is to get the value of the land, which is, after all, not tied to CONCORD, corporations, and iskies, but to the very mortal human world (a whole different scale of money).

I doubt that a trading for a domain is as easy as giving someone cash for it.

I think that only in the Empire and the Republic there could be a chance for a private individual to acquire domain from the government, even then there would be strings attached.

In the feudal society of the Empire there would be the subservience to your feudal lord, and even then if you displeased your superiors you would lose the domain that you hold.
In the republic the domain would probably be given to you as a caretaker for that domain, but in the end the Tribe would own it.

In the State and the Federation things would be different as well.
The government would want constant income from that domain to their coffers, hence they would only give them to corporations that actually pay taxes and are dedicated to developing the domain in an economic way so that it will start giving more and more income to the government.
Basically in this case the building of infrastructure and means of generating income is given to a separate entity within the structure of the society that will take the risks in the short term but will give the same income in the long term.

I guess what I am aiming at, is that you can buy a worthless piece of rock for a shitload of cash and put up a small station there, but you would have to pay the governmental institutions to have their own lackeys looking over your shoulder all the time.

If you want your own Playboy mansion of neverending debauchery where everything goes, you go to 0.0

Which has its own problems, warlords, raiders and all that jazz.

Yes, in that case, a little particular, the Holder family is coming to its end. Thus, I suppose, the holdings get under the care of the ruling entity (here, the Ammatar Consulate).

My reasoning beforehand was that they have 2 solutions :

- Keep it for themselves (even if here its not really interesting for them).
- To entrust a new Holder to rule over said holdings.

Of course, in the second case, the new owner would have to pay, and you are right, would also have to get the approval of the ruling body.

[Louella Dougans]

some minor holders, only have a small space station. about size of a POS. No planetary estates at all.

So, possibly, for a minor holder, it'd be the isk-equivalent of 500M isk and up, maybe.

[Lyn Farel]

Mhh yes but a POS costs A LOT of money. They can not do much with a POS themselves like they can with a proper piece of land (exploitation of said lands), but it costs a lot. At the opposite of a remote bit of land ?

[lallara zhuul]

Even a POS needs upkeep.

Just about any situation where you are a ruler of even a small caravan of people, it will cost you unless those people somehow create income. Especially if you have to build the caravan, educate the people, kiss up to the right people to get the rights to operate the caravan in their area of influence, not to even mention the medical bills, getting them to the doctor, having children, raising them at loss for sixteen years...

Capsuleers exist in a bubble for a reason.

They would not have time to fly in space if they would have to actually take care of anything.

[Horatius Caul]

I think you need to define a lot of concepts before you can reach a conclusion in a discussion like this.

First of all, what is a Holder? Do you have to hold land to be a holder? If yes, how much land? How does a one acquire a holding?

Secondly, what is a domain? How large does one have to be to qualify as a holding and give feudal status? What laws apply to their declaration and distribution?


The solution that makes the most sense to me would be that holdings and domains are strictly defined by law. The domain of the Sarum Region is strictly measured, as is the sphere of Mekhios and the districts on the face of that planet. The same would go for every world in the Empire. What this means is that the creation of new holdings would probably be quite uncommon and would likely require a small legion of imperial surveyors and officials.

All of these holdings or domains would be occupied. A holder of certain stature owning several domains could probably appoint other holders to those estates to serve under him and pay him taxes - which he in turn pay a share of to his lords in turn.

What this would mean is that it wouldn't really be feasible to buy a legal domain. You could approach an existing noble with significant assets and petition them for rights to land, which might include a fee - but that fee would vary greatly from case to case depending on the value of the land, the perceived financial security of the holder-to-be, up-front fees, and other services the new holder could supply.

Thus the cost of a small island on an unpopulated frontier world held by a noble who's a personal friend of the holder-to-be (and who really needs to strike a good deal so that he can benefit from the new holder's significant trade network, and also eliminate those gambling debts and compromising photographs...) could be next to nothing; while the cost of a small continent on a core world with billions living on it, to a buyer with terrible negotiation skills, who is also notorious for being rich yet completely incapable of keeping his assets, having to petition the Emperor Family itself for the land grant... well, he'd have to produce the domain's weight in diamond.

tl;dr: the question is meaningless because any single answer would be grabbed entirely from thin air.

PS: POS rights are carried by Starbase Charters, which would stand outside the general hierarchic structure of the Empire - probably issued directly by the Emperor Family itself and including no oaths of fealty or feud.

[lallara zhuul]

In a feudal society, at least in the medieval times, only those that were part of the feudal system of oaths of fealthy and bound by them, could own land.

Buying rights to use land, like non-Amarrian buying mining rights to areas is completely feasible.

For a capsuleer to actually own land as a Holder.

Pretty much impossible.

Two things pop into mind.

Being a Holder is a full time job, being a Capsuleer is a full time job.
Giving someone that can only do the job half arsed would reflect back on the liege lord in the hierarchy of things.

Second one being the Holders oath, which requires you to have purity of mind and body.

[Horatius Caul]

Second one being the Holders oath, which requires you to have purity of mind and body.

The Godflesh laws don't seem to apply to holders in general though. However, I suppose it could be argued that a lot of Amarr Holders are potentially in line for the seat of an heir, even if it would take ten thousand deaths to get to that point.

EDIT: also, arguing that Capsuleers can't be holders because they couldn't be 100% dedicated to the task makes little sense to me. Surely there have been houses out there that have been held by completely incompetent or decadent nobles who left the running of their estate to stewards and courtiers? Couldn't a Capsuleer giving 10% of his attention to the running of a house be better than a spoiled brat?