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[Makkal]

Makkal is thinking of doing a 'practical guide' for non-speakers and I wondered if anyone has tried their hand at one previously. I wouldn't want a situation where two people speaking Khanid were talking in two obviously unrelated languages.

[Silas Vitalia]

This is worth discussing!

I'd be of the opinion there really isn't much of a "Khanid" language anymore, as they were conquered a few thousand years ago on Athra, most likely forced to speak the Amarr language, and were a willing and interested part of the empire.   

I'd liken it to a 'dead' language from thousands of years ago that only a few academics still speak? The same way I doubt that that the Udorians or the Ni-Kunni are winning the battle to keep their languages alive?

When a giant hegemonic Empire conquers you, one of they first things they do is try to squash your native tongue, as we've seen through history.

I could be totally wrong though, what do you all think?

[Morwen Lagann]

I would expect that Khanid II might have tried pushing his own version of Amarrish or even the old language after the split - even if not, it's safe to assume that over the several hundred years between then and now that whatever version of the language they took with them to the Kingdom has since been adjusted enough that even if it's technically not a separate language from Amarrish, it's different enough to be given its own proper name.

[Silas Vitalia]

I would expect that Khanid II might have tried pushing his own version of Amarrish or even the old language after the split - even if not, it's safe to assume that over the several hundred years between then and now that whatever version of the language they took with them to the Kingdom has since been adjusted enough that even if it's technically not a separate language from Amarrish, it's different enough to be given its own proper name.

I think that makes more sense, maybe a 'dialiect' of Imperial Standard?  Khanid being a Royal Heir and still alive, and I'm sure most of the nobility only a generation or so removed from the Empire, maybe not -that- different... ?

Maybe upper class is still speaking good and proper Imperial standard?

I could see some -very- interesting language developments in the lower and business classes, as the constant contact with the Caldari would absolutely work its way into spoken dialects?

[Makkal]

I take it by the discussion, we don't know of any earlier work?

This is worth discussing!

I am rather glad.

I'd be of the opinion there really isn't much of a "Khanid" language anymore, as they were conquered a few thousand years ago on Athra, most likely forced to speak the Amarr language, and were a willing and interested part of the empire.   

I'd liken it to a 'dead' language from thousands of years ago that only a few academics still speak? The same way I doubt that that the Udorians or the Ni-Kunni are winning the battle to keep their languages alive?

I'm basing this off Morwen's and Odelya's posts in your thread, where they both treat it as a living language. At least living enough  that Gallentean staying in the Kingdom might pick up something she considers ‘Khanid’ and someone from the Kingdom would boast about how she only allows ‘Khanid’ on her ship.

When a giant hegemonic Empire conquers you, one of they first things they do is try to squash your native tongue, as we've seen through history.

I could be totally wrong though, what do you all think?

I don’t think the original Khanid were conquered. Rather, they converted to the Amarrian faith and helped conquer other groups. They’d enjoy a privileged minority status.

I would expect that Khanid II might have tried pushing his own version of Amarrish or even the old language after the split - even if not, it's safe to assume that over the several hundred years between then and now that whatever version of the language they took with them to the Kingdom has since been adjusted enough that even if it's technically not a separate language from Amarrish, it's different enough to be given its own proper name.

It would definitely be a language ‘rediscovered’ by the nobility of the Kingdom.

I think that makes more sense, maybe a 'dialiect' of Imperial Standard?

Dialect is a political term. It's unlikely Makkal, a separatist, would characterize a khanid language as such. Much as she rather hates the Khanid being called 'Dark Amarr.' Nor would she write a practical guide that was mostly a copypasta of Imperial Standard.

[Silver Night]

Other possibilities: Eve is big™

So, even though the 'standard' language is Amarrian (or Amarrish or whatever you call it), there may well still be local and regional dialects. The most likely to survive is more likely to be a regional dialect associated with the Khanid house rather than with the Khanid race, I would think. The latter stopped being a separate societal and (to some degree) cultural entity a long time before the former did (and continues to do).

[Horatius Caul]

I agree with Silas in that it's exceedingly unlikely that the Khanid would have maintained and utilized their original language after being subsumed by the Amarr. Sure, they weren't conquered, but even worse for their cultural heritage they were seemingly eager to join the Amarr and would probably have adopted the culture of their new masters ASAP.

That said... my main theory for why the Minmatar were able to rebel is that the Amarr didn't actually put any effort into exterminating their culture. Because the Udorian culture merged with the Amarr, the Khanid and Ni-Kunni more or less joined the Empire willingly, and the Ealur were cave-dwellers, there was never any real need to launch cultural purges of the societies that Amarr absorbed. In fact, it could be argued that the Empire's history has more counts of cosmopolitan tolerance than inquisitorial hounding. However, one of the big recurring themes of the Empire is its patience. All the Empire has to do to eradicate a culture is to conquer it and then simply stop recording its existence. The media and major archives of Amarr are controlled by those who perpetuate the core culture. A Khanid or Ni-Kunni who wanted to research the history of his race simply wouldn't find any cultural documents preserved. At most he might find census documents, historical land boundaries and genetic data. Any great treasures of culture would have been annihilated by time itself, including coherent languages.

Personally I'd argue that any Khanid language that did exist has been absorbed into Amarrian/Amarish. One could argue that there may be efforts in the Kingdom to linguarchaeologically restore the original language, but it's important to remember that the cultural elite in the Kingdom are still True Amarr. While expressions of bloodline khanid pride may be tolerated or even encouraged to blossom to build popular morale, I don't think it would be in the interests of the royals to let it get too far. Also, King Khanid II is a progressive man, not a regressor. He'd be more likely to reform the language to be less stuffy, more modern, and more useful.

But, if we separate the Kingdom from the debate, we know that the bloodline khanid are known to be cyberknights and religious zealots. These are extremes of dedication, devotion, passion and interest. It suggests an overarching trait within the khanid race for extreme focus on the pursuit of a single field or topic. Thus it's not unreasonable to assume that there could be bloodline khanid cultural revival groups out there, even though there's no actual faction to outright support them. And because of their intense focus, it's not impossible that these revivalists may have reconstructed a modern version of the ancient khanid language.

Anyway, if you haven't looked at it already, check out the Amarrad project in my signature. It's my project to build a stuffy "Old Amarrian" language that predates the Moral Reforms, and includes fragments and traces of the absorbed Udorian, Khanid and even Takmahl languages.

[Matariki Rain]

That said... my main theory for why the Minmatar were able to rebel is that the Amarr didn't actually put any effort into exterminating their culture.

The Minmatar tattoo artists of today are forever seeking to regain the knowledge and skill that was lost to them when the Amarr, during their occupation of the Minmatar, issued an edict banning the practice.

This was a savage blow to the Minmatar, for a Minmatar’s tattoos proclaim who he is, where he came from, what he does, where he has been and what he has experienced. They represent a Minmatar's identity as well as his story. A Minmatar without his markings is not considered a Minmatar at all. Such a one would be as alien to the Minmatar as a universe without God would be to the Amarr. In this, as well as in myriad other ways, the Amarr began to erase the Minmatar’s culture and identity, converting them into more pliable slave stock.

During the millennium of enslavement, the Amarr all but eradicated the tattoo culture.

[Lyn Farel]

I like your point of view Horatius. I would never have thought about it that way.

As Mata quoted, though, it is said that the Amarrian eradicated the Minmatar culture. But did they do it passively or aggressively ? I mean, a lot of the Matari culture remained and is still used again today, which means that firstly, they did not eradicate everything. They could also have just done as Horatius said. It is enough in itself to erase a culture over time. That is what would have happened eventually if the Minmatar never rebelled.

But they rebelled and so, kept a part of their culture before it went to oblivion. In my opinion though, it would be very unlikely that no Holder, no Amarr institution, never tried to tell to their minmatar slaves that their culture is irrelevant and has to be abandonned... I would say, both were involved to a certain degree.

[Horatius Caul]

That said... my main theory for why the Minmatar were able to rebel is that the Amarr didn't actually put any effort into exterminating their culture.

The Minmatar tattoo artists of today are forever seeking to regain the knowledge and skill that was lost to them when the Amarr, during their occupation of the Minmatar, issued an edict banning the practice.

This was a savage blow to the Minmatar, for a Minmatar’s tattoos proclaim who he is, where he came from, what he does, where he has been and what he has experienced. They represent a Minmatar's identity as well as his story. A Minmatar without his markings is not considered a Minmatar at all. Such a one would be as alien to the Minmatar as a universe without God would be to the Amarr. In this, as well as in myriad other ways, the Amarr began to erase the Minmatar’s culture and identity, converting them into more pliable slave stock.

During the millennium of enslavement, the Amarr all but eradicated the tattoo culture.

Okay, they may have put some effort into it, but they had zero experience with it - especially not against a society with people that could, you know, read and write and knew science.

Also, the sheer population numbers of the Minmatar would have made them very difficult to assimilate, plus the wast swathes of new land the Amarr had to exploit after the conquest conspired to make it easier for the uprising to strike free.

[Matariki Rain]

I don't want to derail a thread about Khanid language onto Minmatar cultural history and My Least Favourite EVE Retcon, but note that the Tattoos chron was post-retcon and still confirms that Amarr intentionally tried to suppress Minmatar culture.

-- We don't know to what extent, if any, the neoTraditional Matari cultures are continuations/revivals of "old" customs, vs new cultures created within the last 150 years by newly-free Matari trying to make clans and tribes and rituals and a state "as they ought to be for our people". I tend to assume the latter, even about things that are claimed as having a long tradition: that's the spin you put on things, intentionally or not. Since the retcon it's perfectly plausible to assume the former as well.

-- Amar(r)ish is the language of the Minmatar slave population, and I believe it's the most-spoken language in the cluster. I'm in a cafe, without a keyboard, though, so no links from me this time.

-- Basically, I think that while it might be possible for some sort of old pre-Khanid language to have survived in a ritual context, I'd strongly expect Amarrish to be the language of Khanid. "Khanid" is an Amarrian word, the apparently beloved noble house is Amarrian, the Cyber Knights adopted Amarrian cyber tech in pursuit of their warrior traditions, the Unionists were unhappy about the split from Amarr, and the Zealots were Amarrian religionists... I see lots of pulls toward Amar(r)ish, especially in a religion which seems to be grounded in untranslated scriptures.

[Horatius Caul]

I agree with all your points.

My Minmatar comment stemmed from some rationalization work done a while back. It served to explain how the Minnies could be successfully enslaved for 700 years and still have the cultural unity to rise up and re-form their tribes. What I arrived at was that the Amarr simply didn't know how to Reclaim another advanced society. The idea that an absorbed populace could rise up was, in many ways, an out of context problem.

[Publius Valerius]

As for Khanid the bloodline.... I think, Tony G had in Templar one a line form a characktrer. * Pubius looks in it. Tatiana Czar, explains here surname to Mordu, as Khanid form an old commoners dialect. So I think, most likely the old dialect/language is dead, just some academic will speak it.

[Ken]

If someone attempts the creation of a language or dialect, may I humbly request a Khanid word for "gravy".

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I'm with Matariki on the question whether the Amarr tried to eradicate numerous aspects of Matari culture. Though having said this, I also think Horatius has a point when he claims that the Amarr seem to have had little experience in eradicating an entire culture. I'm with him indeed when he says "In fact, it could be argued that the Empire's history has more counts of cosmopolitan tolerance than inquisitorial hounding."

So, I honestly think that the Amarr failed to assimilate the Matari exactly because they tried to eradicate the Matari culture (or at least certain aspects of it) rather than trusting in their culture being that superior that in good time it will supersede most of the tribal culture. Though, I think the Amarr had maybe some good reasons to assume that this wouldn't work so easily with the Matari: Probably the differences between the two were (perceived to be) too big for gradual assimilation of the Matari into the Amarrian culture. Then there was the fact that the Matari were not one world to conquer but several and that the Amarr seem to have turned quite greedy when having so many slaves at their doorstep.

May this be as it is, I would guess that the original Khanid language is still known within the Empire, though probably something of a relic, as the Amarrian language serves undoubtedly as lingua franca within the Empire. Still, I'd expect that some groups within the Khanid ethnicity are proud of their heritage and cultivate it. For one thing, the Khanid joined the Empire more or less freely because they converted to the Amarrian religion. Such a thing doesn't happen without some effort from the religious caste in question and as has been proven again and again in history, that most often comes with thorough study of the language of those that shall be turned to the religion. Thus, Amarrian clergy will probably have made an effort to study, document and learn the Khanid language in order to bring them into the fold (and thus win them over as allies to the Empire, something that seems to have been crucial for the Amarr to win against the Udorians and Assiminans).

Also, as the Khanid tend to form fanatic religous groups with weird (by imperial standards) teachings, I'd assume that at least some of their religous texts are preserved in Khanid and still used in that language, the same goes for church songs and the stuff, as we know that the Amarrian religion is split into different churches and churches into sub-churches that cater to the needs of their respective groups. (See: Ammatar church or the Ni-Kunni within the Amarrian orthodox church.)

Above and beyond this, the Khanid tongue might have some practical purposes that might merit its survival through the millennia. Mostly for some way of encrypting what one is communicating in one way or the other it might have had it's uses, be that on the battlefield (Like the US used Navajo code talkers in WWII) or when those few Khanid that were elevated to holder status used it to keep an upper hand in dealings with holders of Amarrian ethnicity.  (For similar reasons I'd expect Ni-Kunni merchants to have some love for their mother tongue, and they didn't endure a long time of slavery at all.)

Also, we don't really know whether the term 'Khanid' is originally from the Khanid or the Amarrian language, just that the Amarr christened the - back then still ethnically Khanid - ruling family of the ethnic Khanid thusly. I'd suspect it to be an Amarrian flection of an originally Khanid root "Khan".

As for the Udorians - and the inhabitants of Assimia - I guess they never had a language entirely distinct from the Amarrian tongue, as the Amarr seem to be actually a subgroup of the Udorian/Assimian group.