Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 12 Sep 2018, 14:37
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/venturebeat.com/2018/09/06/black-desert-online-creator-pearl-abyss-acquires-eve-online-maker-ccp-games-for-425-million/amp/ (https://www.google.com/amp/s/venturebeat.com/2018/09/06/black-desert-online-creator-pearl-abyss-acquires-eve-online-maker-ccp-games-for-425-million/amp/)
El oh fucking el
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Not gonna lie, looking forwards to the Hello Kitty skins.
Looking less forwards to the account-bound skins that adds a 'camo bonus' which removes you from local chat and d-scan for 39.99 a pop.
(this is, by the way, pretty much exactly an item you can buy in BDO. Massively reduces your visibility, P2W item.)
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Not sure if sarcastic, concern trolling, or just ignorant AF.
First... it's been stated by both sides that PA won't have their fingers into CCP's process to the extent needed for those kinds of changes. CCP will be making its own decisions while learning development processes from PA and sharing their own in the other direction. It's borderline concern trolling at this point. CCP's made some questionable decisions in the past w/r/t microtransactions but they aren't quite as outright retarded as people are making them out to be with all their pearl-clutching.
Second... if you're going to try to come up with some ridiculous hyperbolic example, try to at least make it a properly analogous one instead of one that falls apart at the ground floor.
Black Desert doesn't even have "local" like EVE does to begin with. It has a minimap with about 50-60 meter detection range for players and npcs. You still appear on it, you're still game to be flagged upon by other players outside of safezones. The only way to disappear from the minimap is either to literally not be there, or crouch or go prone, which, while it can be done at any time, ghillie suit or not, it restricts your motion heavily and leaves you basically defenseless—you can't escape if someone finds you like that.
The only things that the two ghillie suits do in PVP is hide your name and guild from view—and that is a toggle. Frankly, EVE's cloaking devices, as-is, are more powerful—because in Black Desert you can still see what's there and where it is. Just not who, and if you're ever not making the assumption that someone in a ghillie is more likely hostile than not, you're fooling yourself. (Also, the anonymity function is disabled during territory wars. So it's not even useful there.)
In EVE you just know they're there. You don't know what they're in. You don't know where they are. BDO doesn't really have cynos, either, so hot-drops aren't a thing. Yes, there's a guild skill called "call to gather" but it's a once a day thing, it costs money, and only the guild leader can activate it. Nobody with half a brain is gonna waste it on a PVP scrap.
The only other thing that ghillies do in Black Desert, is offer a passive bonus depending on which one you pick. One offers increased resistance to heatstroke and hypothermia, and the other adds a level to your gathering skill.
tl;dr - If you're going to talk shit, know what you're talking about first. Because speaking as someone who's played the game for the better part of the last two years, you don't have a damn clue.
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So salty. The PA business model, salty rants aside, remains firmly in the P2W category and you can buy something that'll massively reduce your visibility. CCP hasn't exactly been trustworthy in the things they've said for years now as it is, but this time they should be taken at their word, for some reason. Pearl Abyss now literally owning the company means that they can go back at their word whenever they want and can do basically whatever they want. They also forked over 425m, which means they expect to make back that money somehow. How remains to be seen, and is something people have a legitimate reason to be concerned about.
It can go any which way at this point, so you'll have to forgive those of us who take the piss out of P2W Korean grindfests, their owners, and now our Waifu Overlords. Especially given how CCP has been inching steadily closer and closer to crossing lines that shouldn't be crossed.
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It can go any which way at this point, so you'll have to forgive those of us who take the piss out of P2W Korean grindfests, their owners, and now our Waifu Overlords. Especially given how CCP has been inching steadily closer and closer to crossing lines that shouldn't be crossed.
Basically.
These companies are very good about squeezing vital money fluids out of anything at the expense of making a good game first. The current model that gives the big bucks also gives games that are generally terrible and twisted/misshapen to shoehorn in money making opportunities in-game.
I guess the dance these days is just how brazen the developers can be or get away with and how much shit players choose to eat to get their fix. Lots of very smart people out there working for these companies who know exactly what dials to push and pull to hit the right dopamine centers and get you to pay money for candy crush, or whatever version of candy crush mobile eve is going to turn into.
To each their own I guess!
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Admittedly, trading cynicism off as wisdom works fairly well in today's world, but..
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People should probably read this (https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/ccp-games-pearl-abyss-sale-eve-online-1202936322/amp/).
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My takeaway from that article is dumping money into the mobile market to get those shiny candycrush dollas.
Dropping a ton of money and completely redoing the core engine and revamping gameplay would be super rad and is long overdue; I'd be terribly excited for it, but I'll believe it when I see it.
I mean it all can sound like roses when interviewing people who are dependent on this succeeding and have personal financial stakes in it doing well, that's just PR.
Getting a ton of cash to revamp the game and spin off into other mediums and do the global domination thing would be super great, but we should be realistic that it is far more likely that it will end up in a mobile-oriented hybrid game built on a korean model.
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Admittedly, trading cynicism off as wisdom works fairly well in today's world, but..
You're right, this would be the first time in like 15 years CCP has said something was going to be super awesome and would actually be great for everybody and was a bold move forward and then it didn't pan out. My bad! :P
C'monnn :)
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It'd also be the first time people have reacted to change as if it's the end of the world and the game will be dead in a month.
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Pretty sure no one's said that, kalala. Maybe less strawmen would be appropriate?
Simple fact is, CCP has a bad track record when it comes to keeping their word and their new owners are worrisome when it comes to the models they've pursued in the past. It's hardly unreasonable to adopt a position of "yeah this might go bad. Time to make sure we're prepared."
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It'd also be the first time people have reacted to change as if it's the end of the world and the game will be dead in a month.
sick burn!
Jokes aside, I don't see how this development will do anything aside from move it further -towards- a free to play/pay for shinies model that integrates more completely with the mobile market. That's where the money is, that's where they will take this, guaranteed.
If by some chance this cash infusion is used to staff up, generate new content, and drastically stop treading water, that would be super rad.
It is not being overly cynical given the evidence that every single time CCP has spent cash and manpower resources on new things like different IP or EVE branching games they have been either canceled, mismanaged, or very unsuccessful with no legs.
Incarna
White Wolf
Dust
Valkyrie
Gunjack
Upcoming free to play pay for shinies mobile game: Eve War of Ascension will be a good measure as well.
In all seriousness I'm not sure how to view this as a net positive considering the buyer? What do you think?
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So the company stopped work on VR games and refocuses its efforts on core PC titles and initiated work on core games for the smartphone.
The company will continue to maintain, and even provide slight updates, for its existing VR titles including “Eve: Valkyrie” and “Gunjack 2.” But most of its efforts will go into a slew of in-development games like first-person “Eve Online” shooter “Project Nova,” a PC MMO and a smartphone real-time strategy games based in the “Eve” universe, and a multiplayer game for the PC based on a new IP.
if they're developing a multiplayer PC game based on a new IP, I'm kind of sceptical about lore & story development for EVE.
Suspect that the lore/story people will have a tendency to be pulled off to work on stuff for the new IP.
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That seems like a low price. :psyccp:
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As a side note, there's a part of me that finds it mildly amusing/intriguing/hopeful that CCP is about to be owned by a company that already owns an engine by which anthropomorphic rendered avatars can explore and interact.
I wonder if we'll be seeing WIS revisited at some point as a thing we might actually be able to do this time. CCP has a miserable history when it comes to things that aren't strictly EvE.
PA, on the other hand....
(Getting us that kind of access, finally, would also open up the options in a place where microtransactions have proven not only profitable but harmless: fantastic hats. CCP's approach to this has given us some nifty stuff [Octopus Red Flight Cerberus FT{psychological}W], but they've never seemed to understand the real draw. The real draw isn't "a spiffy item." The real draw is customization. Options.)
(Warframe's figured it out but good: "Sell them the skins, sure. But also, and more importantly, sell them the colors....")
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EVE is about as likely to get walking in stations because of these developments as Black Desert is likely to get spaceships.
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Agree with Jev, they aren't touching that again with a 100m pole.
You'll get whatever Dust fps sequel/whatever they are going to vomit up, and you'll pay for super hardcore space merc armor but CCP has 0 interest in capsuleers hanging out with snazzy clothes playing checkers in station.
Which is ridiculous because all 100 of us RPers would have kept the company funded for 30 years if they were charging for fancy dresses and space hats to hang out with other avatars :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Doesn't sound like much of a cash cow to me, compared to the far lower effort requirement of just releasing various Hello Kitty PUNK STYLE skins etc to us current whales. I'll fork over the dosh, just don't waste all that time and money on space leg bullshit. Real RP happens in space.
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A few points:
The old guard are majority shareholders. My impression is many of them have been waiting a long time for this day. To them, this is like a payday decades in the making, and it's hard to imagine they'd refuse out of concerns for the health of the game post-acquisition. I've no idea about exact numbers, but fairly confident many if not all majority shareholders will be made millionaires after this. If you'd been working on EVE since 1999, you'd probably feel entitled to sell out, too. I don't really blame them.
Although I read about performance-based incentives and the like to retain that old guard guard and studio talent more generally, it's still possible some will move on once the acquisition completes, which could have its own implications. The idea of performance-based incentives is potentially problematic in its own way, too.
Even for some regular employees this same dynamic is true. After a certain amount of time at CCP you can start buying shares, and many employees have bought as much as possible, as often as possible. They may care more about getting a return on that money than they do about the health of the game, and/or may move on after the acquisition having made a tidy sum.
For my own part I only stand to profit off the 50 shares they gave all employees as part of a Christmas gift one year. Many of the reasons I became disillusioned with CCP stem from their long-term shift towards a more corporate approach - a move I believe was ultimately driven by a desire to cash out someday, as they have here. I'd feel guilty about taking that money, given all that, but I'm going to use it to fund an environment/sustainability project here at uni, so meh! :D
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A few points:
The old guard are majority shareholders. My impression is many of them have been waiting a long time for this day. To them, this is like a payday decades in the making, and it's hard to imagine they'd refuse out of concerns for the health of the game post-acquisition. I've no idea about exact numbers, but fairly confident many if not all majority shareholders will be made millionaires after this. If you'd been working on EVE since 1999, you'd probably feel entitled to sell out, too. I don't really blame them.
Although I read about performance-based incentives and the like to retain that old guard guard and studio talent more generally, it's still possible some will move on once the acquisition completes, which could have its own implications. The idea of performance-based incentives is potentially problematic in its own way, too.
Even for some regular employees this same dynamic is true. After a certain amount of time at CCP you can start buying shares, and many employees have bought as much as possible, as often as possible. They may care more about getting a return on that money than they do about the health of the game, and/or may move on after the acquisition having made a tidy sum.
For my own part I only stand to profit off the 50 shares they gave all employees as part of a Christmas gift one year. Many of the reasons I became disillusioned with CCP stem from their long-term shift towards a more corporate approach - a move I believe was ultimately driven by a desire to cash out someday, as they have here. I'd feel guilty about taking that money, given all that, but I'm going to use it to fund an environment/sustainability project here at uni, so meh! :D
Don't feel guilty in the slightest, cash the fuck out and set sail :P
We should just all be realistic about what's going on is all. Painting this as some sort of great positive thing for the game going forward and anything other than them getting paid and hitting the eject button would be silly :P
If it's going to sink, better to make some $$ on the way out the door yea? :bear:
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Are the details of the Sale and Purchase Agreement public knowledge? I got around to reading the performance incentives and they're quite spicy, essentially attaching big time monetary reward to some very short term financial milestones. Not sure how congruous a "quarterly capitalism" approach is going to be.
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The effectively 'half now, half later' nature of the performance incentives is known, but the actual qualifying milestones themselves are not as far as I am aware.
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Take this with a grain of salt coz I dunno legalese, but it looks like it's split into 3 payments: one upfront, two in consecutive years. Each roughly the same size (upfront is slightly larger). Each of the two performance-based payouts are tied to annual profits through to 2020 (if profits don't exceed X amount then no payout is given). So you may have ~2 years of some of the majority shareholders (arguably the most powerful people in the company) relentlessly pushing profit above other considerations, in orer to almost triple the value of their stocks.
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Take this with a grain of salt coz I dunno legalese, but it looks like it's split into 3 payments: one upfront, two in consecutive years. Each roughly the same size (upfront is slightly larger). Each of the two performance-based payouts are tied to annual profits through to 2020 (if profits don't exceed X amount then no payout is given). So you may have ~2 years of some of the majority shareholders (arguably the most powerful people in the company) relentlessly pushing profit above other considerations, in orer to almost triple the value of their stocks.
So how much PLEX do they have to buy? :lol:
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Devblog (https://www.eveonline.com/article/pjblu1/war-declaration-changes-the-war-adjacent-to-christmas) detailing the next step in desperately trying to up temporary sub numbers by appealing to the cowards and whiny bears. Now highsec is to be perfectly safe and the majority of the RP community can run and hide from the consequences of their choices.
Fuck CCP, the fuckin' pussies. HTFU my entire ass.
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Not really sure this is the thread for it, but...
The wardecs system needed changing drastically. As a self-professed stopgap measure by CCP, I am ok with this. I say this as someone who quite often uses wars for content.
I forget the exact numbers, but something like 70% of all wars are declared by three alliances. The player retention numbers on corps that get wardecced are horrible. To quote the last CSM minutes, "These numbers would justify removing wardecs entirely, today."
In terms of day-to-day operations in highsec, more or less nothing has changed. Highsec is not perfectly safe. Suicide ganking is still an option. Any corp owning so much as a POCO can be decced.
The kind of RPer who "runs and hides from consequences" was already doing that, either by corp hopping or just not undocking. The only difference now is they can't be locked into a perma-war which makes it even more unlikely they would undock.
Obviously we'll have to wait and see, but I actually hope this will lead to an increase in fights during wars, as "defenders" will be able to go hunting for "attackers" structures in hope of ending the war, as well as providing a set end to a war once an attacker has killed all the defender's structures.
I know I won't be able to convince you that this is anything but CCP pandering to "carebears and cowards", but I do believe this will be a positive change. I've been a part of a new-player corp that got stuck under a perma-dec by a small but high sp group with lots of alts, and I cannot overstate just how much it sucks. That situation has likely done more damage to new player retention over the last decade and a half than any other factor. Just remember that this is not a personal attack on you or your playstyle, things always change and players always adapt.
On a personal note, I really, honestly suggest taking a break from Eve for a while Miz. Maybe till new year or something. I haven't seen a positive comment from you about the game, its Devs, its players, or really anything else Eve related since I can't even remember when. You're clearly not enjoying it. In fact it seems to be actively harmful to your emotional state. I know we haven't always got on, but I hope you'll take what I'm saying as sincere and consider it.
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I chose this thread because it's getting pretty clear CCP isn't doing fuck all anymore that isn't a desperate attempt to push subcounts for Korean Bonus Money.
Yes, the wardec system desperately needed changes, there can be absolutely no doubt about that. The problem is that CCP has quite literally never introduced a "stopgap measure" that didn't end up being the final, abandoned and permanent fixture while they fucked off to do something else in the most half-arsed way possible. This isn't just being negative, this is objective fuckin' fact about their development of damn near anything for a very long time now.
And yes, we're all aware that player retention in highsec was a serious issue but I have yet to see even the slightest proof that wardecs were the actual cause. There has been no data gathered on the causes for it. Say it with me now: Correlation is not causation. Want to know where my money is on this subject? The wardec isn't the cause, it's the catalyst. It's what makes the actual issue come to the fore: Highsec gameplay just isn't actually fun. If it was, then people'd stick their heads back out when the wardecs were over. The only reason why they'd stay away once it's over is if there's no real reason to return. A week not playing turning permanent is something that happens if it just makes them realize they don't actually miss it enough to come back to it. They're free of it now. Distance is supposed to make the heart grow fonder, not duller. When it grows duller... yeah, maybe they should stay away. They weren't having fun to begin with.
Which means, this doesn't solve the wardec issue at all. Quite the contrary, it will just hide the real problem further by reducing the mechanics which can peel back the illusions crafted by Investment Fallacies and Progress Addiction, which hides that the real problem and solution is that highsec gameplay needs drastic revamps and changes.
You want to fix the wardecs? Make undocking and playing during them something desirable. Something you'll want to do. Incentivize taking a little risk to end the wars faster, incentivize activity and incentivize engaging in gameplay to achieve goals (whether the goal is ending the dec or not) etc etc. There's been page up and page down written on actual workable solutions to this and none of the viable ones have something as fucking mindblowingly retarded as tying it to fucking structures in them. I'm not going to sit down and rewrite it all yet again, but I can tell you that the solutions that were viable weren't about fucking over content, they were about creating more gameplay and giving wardec victims counterplay options.
Highsec is now perfectly safe for anyone with a brainstem. "But but suicide ganking" is nonsense, because it'll never be sustainable. You can't impose any kind of worthwhile consequence for action through suicide ganking, and if it was... do you really think the bears in question would be any less cryin' if someone decided to keep hunting their miners, missioners and haulers with neutral alt suiciders? This is an improvement over having flashy wartargets blatantly visible in all the shared RP channels and local whenever they're active? I mean, I can easily run eight constantly cycling suicider characters. It wouldn't even be difficult, just more work. I can afford permarunning a whole lot of wars, so funding highly insurable Tornados and Gankalysts, especially with neutral looter/salvagers in my back pocket wouldn't exactly be onerous. It isn't good RP though, is it? It's not consequences for actions, or IC conflicts. It's just ganking. Ganking that can't be countered either, unlike WTs.
As for trying to marginalize my views with concern trolling, I don't particularly appreciate it much, no. I am in all likelihood on a break as we speak, especially since now RP has basically been turned completely fucking worthless since there's no way left to impose consequences for actions, and thus effectively there aren't any consequences for any choices or actions, and thus RP is fuckin' worthless.
As for you not having seen positive comments... well, that's on you. The fact that you choose to ignore them and only focus on the negative is not my problem.
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I'm sorry if you think I'm "concern trolling", because I'm genuinely not. I'm glad to hear you're taking a break, I think it will honestly be something positive for you, and I wish you the best.
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Do we know a few numbers for CCP?
What % of their playerbase lives/works/dies in Highsec
What % of their playerbase does the low/null pew pew
Which of these groups provide more income to CCP? Is it an army of casual high sec folks that dont pvp or is it a bunch of null folks buying plex and the like?
If they are getting most of their money and subs from high sec carebear types this will explain things, and if their korean bonus money is based on pure sub numbers then them taking the most direct possible action to boost those also makes sense.
At one point early on for me I too ran a revolving door wardec farm on carebear corps for ransom purposes, it was good income and you'd honestly get most of your isk without having to fire a shot, or maybe after exploding a few ships. I do not think it was healthy for CCP retention, that's certainly true.
There's got to be a balance somewhere between 'you are immune from wardecs' and 'no one is ever going to help you, even on day one, even vs someone many times your experience level'
Their proposed solution seems overly draconian and Miz's suspicions ring a bit true to me as well, but I'm pretty far removed from feeling heated about any of it either way, not being subbed and all.
The problem is CCP's image and marketing is often built around 'you will get fucked up and you have the freedom to fuck other people up and we won't get in the way' versus the reality that that is a scary pool for new players to jump into.
I might do something like, newer players and corps are perhaps restricted from certain activities, mods, fits, missions, whatever, until they -choose- to activate full vulnerability and join the rest of the capsuleers. Maybe they face some huge tax burden or frankly can't get standings increased or -whatever- that would eliminate it being financially useful to use them as alts, until they feel they are ready to become vulnerable and step into the pool.
A 'tiered' system with 2 or 3 steps versus all or nothing might be useful.
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Last time the numbers were mentioned, something like 65% of all characters are in highsec. How that translates to accounts/players I am not sure.
Then nullsec, then lowsec, then wormholes. Although these days the balance may have shifted slightly between low/wormholes.
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Has the sky fallen yet?
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Has the sky fallen yet?
Nothing's noticeably changed yet. But the same people who complain about everything are still complaining about whatever twitches.
So yeah, nothing's changed.
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Nothing's noticeably changed except for several recent events and changes where CCP is desperately trying to boost active player numbers and subcounts for some of that delicious Korean bonus dick, you mean? Significant changes to highsec safety, more blatant log-in bait etc? The sky is starting to crack and split, yes.
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I still don't understand why people are so opposed to CCP making money. My god, it's almost like they're a business.
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You are perfectly aware that literally no one has complained about CCP making money. There isn't a soul on these boards that have or ever would be opposed to that. Why do you feel the need to twist things that way, with that kind of strawman?
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CCP is desperately trying to boost active player numbers and subcounts for some of that delicious Korean bonus dick
I am strawman-ing so hard right now.
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Correct, you very much are. Quite literally no one has complained about CCP making or wanting to make money. It's the means they have decided to utilize with that goal in mind that is the issue, and you know that quite well. Not only a strawman, but quite a disingenuous one at that.
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So is your problem with the ends or the means?
I'm genuinely curious because your posting seems to be attacking both. You're angry at the changes CCP have made to the game in order to try and boost subscriber numbers. CCP have made these changes (partly) because they need good financial metrics in order to get their bonuses from PA.
Would you be less angry if CCP had made these changes without PA in the picture?
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Why would I give a fuck if CCP earns money or gets to gargle Korean Bonus Dick? My posting is clear as glass: The shit they pull in order to suckle on that dick is the problem. The motivation for the shit changes being greed rather than just incompetence does add a layer of 'fuck you' to it all, but again: Literally no one, no one has complained about anyone making money. What we have seen though from CCP are several changes and priority shifts that are so blatantly targeted towards short term numbers bloat rather than healthy game changes, and that is what's earning complaints.
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It might be that there are short term vs long term ways to generate growth?
I don't want to speak too much for Miz but I imagine they are upset at the sort of zany game changes designed to prime the pump short term for specific cash reasons rather than spending time and energy to fix long term growth issues and ensure stability in the future?
It's sort of like when a private equity firm buys into a company and squeezes it dry for its delicious assets and then pays themselves massive bonuses and ejects before the withered husk dies completely, leaving everyone else in the lurch.
Ta-Da!
:P
By the by I certainly don't think the sky is falling I'm more interested in an academic sense; I don't think any of the recent actions or mergers / sellouts whatever are much different than the path things have been on for years. More of a steady slow drip than a sudden jump off a cliff, if that makes sense.
This is all super interesting and complicated, how do you keep something interesting and busy for TEN + years? How and when do you shake it up? Do you appeal more to your loyal base or do you pillage and try for new blood who are interested in very different methods of playing and time expenditure? EVE has a particular problem where super old super rich people have a lot of vested interest in not having their shit fucked with in any major way. Big changes to any of the underlying game systems that cut out their in game power in any way are big no no's for them. Very difficult stuff.
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Also in all seriousness if this thread isn't interesting or relevant to someone it might be more constructive to maybe just not read it or post snarky replies? I really don't see the point aside from shit stirring
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I think a lot of the back-and-forth is due to disagreement over whether or to what degree the sky is falling.
In a general way, so long as EVE doesn't lose core elements of its identity, then efforts to increase retention or to promote activity are generally good practice. The source of the income-- whether PA, consumers, or historically other investors --doesn't really matter.
With the winter events, there's some stuff that's certainly aimed toward a revenue boost, but it's not exactly wringing the rag for every drop. The historical Christmas gifts are tied with logging in (I think that's happened before, so whatev; login bonuses aren't the devil); one of the gifts allows people to inject SP without loss of efficiency for a limited number of pokes (new, definitely is aimed at boosting the SP market, but doesn't materially change existing abilities); lastly, the log-in event has rewards for both alphas and omegas, and alphas that upgrade to omega can then get the omega rewards also. Aside from a bit of SP, most of the event rewards are aesthetic or small quantities of ammunition.
So, the usual holiday stuff has a new wrapper, and it's aimed at encouraging people to log in, subscribe, etc.
While we can certainly discuss the virtues of SP selling, my view is that so long as it's a 'pay money for convenience' thing instead of a 'pay money for an insurmountable advantage' thing, then meh. Whatev. The current Rorqual locusting in Delve is more of an issue for long-term game balance than SP selling. ;p
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Alternatively, there's just something to be said about baited hooks that some parties just can't resist biting. #gottem
I've been keeping an eye on things and haven't really noticed anything 'off' from the sidelines, though I will admit the "just log in to get free shit" event that started today had an eyebrow raised slightly—if only because BDO has attendance rewards. And then it promptly went back down when I remembered that EVE has done similar things before for the holiday season.
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Pretty much, Morlag. Log-in rewards are a thing in the industry, and not really nefarious. If anything, it's just using the customary holiday presents to incentivize behavior.
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Log-in rewards aren't nefarious? Just because something is ubiquitous doesn't make it any less manipulative and coaxing more log-ins through attendance rewards rather than making the actual game worth logging in to regardless of 'rewards' is pretty indicative of where the priorities are. A hint: Not quality, consumer benefits or long-term health of the game.
They're outright designed to tickle the addiction mechanics in people's brains, and that sort of callous manipulation leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
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Log-in rewards aren't nefarious? Just because something is ubiquitous doesn't make it any less manipulative and coaxing more log-ins through attendance rewards rather than making the actual game worth logging in to regardless of 'rewards' is pretty indicative of where the priorities are. A hint: Not quality, consumer benefits or long-term health of the game.
They're outright designed to tickle the addiction mechanics in people's brains, and that sort of callous manipulation leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
You mean the event they've had going for years? (http://evefights.com/eve-online-13-days-of-ccp-goodies/)
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No. I'm talking about the log-in rewards they only recently started doing. The event freebies never tried to manipulate you like these things.
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Pretty much. Like the idea of daily quests, their whole purpose is encouraging addictive habits. It might be industry standard at this point, but that doesn't change what they're designed to do.
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Players who log in are more likely to stay logged in and play the game than players who don't log in. Encouraging them to log in is just common sense. A small number of time limited login rewards a few times a year does not strike me as an "addictive" practice.
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But i NEEEEEED my fireworks!!!!!
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A small number of time limited login rewards a few times a year does not strike me as an "addictive" practice.
It's quite literally designed to be an addictive mechanic. It's the reason log-in incentive mechanics exist in the first place, because they trigger the same Pavlovian bullshit most consistent reward mechanics do. "Click the butan! Click play! GOOD BOY! Have some SP/Fireworks/literally anything/shit in your hands and clap." It doesn't matter how simplistic it might feel or how above it you feel you are, these are very simple mechanics that quite simply work and that is why they're used.
It's manipulation, no ifs or buts about it. You might feel it's acceptable manipulation, but I'm not particularly into that kind of bullshit because anyone who feels like manipulating their customers is the right thing to do have already taken the first step towards moral and ethical failure: Thinking of and treating people as things (subcounts, activity numbers, etc etc).
"Encouraging them to log in" is perfectly fine... if you do it by making the act of logging in rewarding without being manipulative shitlers abusing addiction mechanics to do so. Make the game worth logging in to without the skinner boxes, the manipulation and the bullshit and voila. No one sane would have even the slightest problem here, but hey...
... that'd require them to put in more than the absolute minimum amount of effort, so that'll never happen.
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But we're not talking loot boxes, slots, or any other sort of gambling. I mean, I guess I understand not wanting to be 'tricked,' but providing incentive for certain behavior (logging in, engaging with events, etc) is something that seems like it's honestly best practice, and not really something to moralize about.
Certainly, CCP should also be working on improving gameplay, but this seems like low-hanging fruit, something to increase activity levels. That it'll happen to also be live when they've got a new and possibly fairly complicated, pretty seasonal event going online seems fair.
I guess I just don't see how the sky is falling with this campaign.
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The whole purpose is to get players to log in, undock, and interact with each other in some fashion.
Providing an incentive to log in (free stuff!) puts players in a spot where their next decision is whether to undock or not.
Providing an incentive to undock (time-sensitive event goodies in exchange for low-effort in-space activity) then puts players in the position to interact or compete with others, which is kind of the point of an MMO.
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And none of that changes that the means in question, daily log-in rewards, remain manipulative addiction mechanics. It really doesn't matter how harmless anyone makes it out to be, it is still manipulative addiction mechanics. There's absolutely no way around it. There's no rewriting it, no different interpretation of it. It's the simplest unalloyed fact: It is manipulation and it is designed to cause addiction mechanics to trigger in your brain. Designed to.
You don't design that sort of thing by accident. They sat down and they decided they needed a way to manipulate their users. They worked it out and implemented it.
Of course it's not the sky falling, but it's yet another drop. Among other drops. And more drops. And more drops. Cups overfloweth eventually, and this is one of those hundreds of little things that show more and more that CCP are putting pretty much all their efforts entirely into short-term boosting for a short-term pay off and gives exactly zero fucks about the long-term health of the game because they're going to bail out as soon as it all runs out of steam.
Trivializing this pattern does no one any favors.
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What Mizhara says. That being said, most MMO mechanics are designed with the same idea in mind. Making things super grind heavy for example is also all about exploiting addictive tendencies. MMO developers want players to stick around and pay for subscriptions, so the devs tend to incorporate time-wasting activities with a carrot always dangling over the next little hill in order to keep their customers hooked.
Hell, EVE was doing this even before these login events. Skill queue caps were the original means. Similar idea: By making people have shorter queues, they'd need to log in to update them. Once logged in, they might play more. Once playing more, they might subscribe, and subscription means money.
It's not necessarily bad by itself, mind. But it is designed for that purpose, whether or not you see it as a problem. Same thing with daily quests, or BD's daily logins, or the Agency events, etc. And it can be an issue when you start feeling forced to do it because the rewards are sweet enough (that's the addiction part. You might not want to log in, but oh there's that reward and I really should get it. This is especially prevalent with daily quests. You quickly come to despise them... but you feel obliged to do them anyway). But what I see it more as a sign of is EVE drifting away from its sandbox nature. Sandboxes tend to encourage people to login by giving people the tools to create their own content. Constant content infusion (always an Agency event around the corner, ever more new ships, etc) and login tricks like reward weekends and so on make EVE feel like it's looking to linear games for inspiration. That's a little concerning - though, mind, of all the shit CCP has been doing, minor marketing things like this are probably the least egregious to me.
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of all the shit CCP has been doing, minor marketing things like this are probably the least egregious to me.
Well yes, it's hardly the worst thing. The subject was just raised and trivialized. But what Samira says, most of it.
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Yes agree with Samira.
EVE is also operating in a very crowded game space right now where shorter-term, addiction oriented freemium multiplayer games are eating their lunch.
Their reaction to these competitors seems to be over the years to start tilting towards these sorts of freemium models, where you can pay $$ for things to instantly satiate a need. Pay for ISK, pay for vanity items, pay for skills, whatever, just like the rest of the industry.
I happen to think it's shit, but I've been thinking this since the first time Halo or whatever tried to sell me a map pack on xbox live after I had already purchased a supposedly 'full' game. I'm old enough to have cut my teeth on a 'pay once up front and get it all' model for all of my gaming starting with 5 1/2" floppy disks. The industry thinks otherwise and that ship has long sailed for 90% of mass market games out there.
I feel it would be a much richer experience if everyone were on the same playing field paying the same subscription fee and nothing else to be provided a big sandbox that was left well enough alone, but I don't know if that model can even work for anything right now.
There's so much fundamentally wrong with the economy in the game and isk fountains that this stuff is all more philosophical anyway.
Back to the OP though it seems the moves towards freemium design ques are increasing. It's a slow drip until it isn't.
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At least EVE isn't as bad as the latest from Capcom lollll https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/12/12/street-fighter-v-adds-adverts/
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I see Dr. Zaius is now a selectable character in SFV, wow. :lol:
For real tho, I won't miss video games.
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One wonders why some people continue playing, if everything is so distasteful to them.
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At least I got one of these electric log splitters in time (https://www.villagevoice.com/best-electric-log-splitters/) and EVE isn't as bad as the latest from Capcom lollll https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/12/12/street-fighter-v-adds-adverts/
Lord have mercy. I guess we're just $ signs to them and nothing else. This is what happens when the marketing departments start running companies.