Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 10 Aug 2010, 10:23
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http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=09-08-10
*throws hissyfit*
Not how I imagined Amarr media to be like at all...maybe it's Gallentean cultural permutation? I mean...gah...
Given I think the writer is new, so, might cut him some slack.
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Good chron. Kinda sad.
guessing we're going to be seeing more of 'The Bloody Hand of Matar' in the future?
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http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=09-08-10
*throws hissyfit*
Not how I imagined Amarr media to be like at all...maybe it's Gallentean cultural permutation? I mean...gah...
Given I think the writer is new, so, might cut him some slack.
On the contrary I rather appreciate that Amarrian cultural values are present in a situation one doesn't easily imagine in a monolithic society such as the Amarr.
It would be dull to follow the established archetype of the Amarr to a T, so introducing a spin on what is present in their society while still maintaining the core vlaues is alright.
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I thought it was good, touching in a sad way. I'm not religious so I can't understand the belief that this man must have in his faith, but it's a terribly emotional thing.
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I liked it. Who doesn't like clowns anyway? :P
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Second opinion...
It does reveal what "everyday" Amarr might be like...or at least, the modern sectors of society. What turned me off Amarr RP (though they are my 2nd fave behind Caldari) is they came across very 'anachronistically'...and didn't seem very suiting...however, given modern behemoth nations like India and China, it fits...for these countries have a mixture of both ultra-modern areas, as well as backwater regions (which, in Amarr sense, would be the sort of places from Merely Disassembled)
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I think there is room for a lot of variation, not only in local culture etc, but in things like media too. I'm curious how the chron didn't fit your idea of Amarr media, Seri. Did you not think that the Amarr had children's shows? That they would just be sermons, or?
I'm a bit torn on the religious elements. One the one hand, they seem a little clumsy. Not all of it, but a couple of the specific lines etc. On the other, if popular media (or perhaps even just certain channels) tend to integrate the religious element, then to someone who was raise (or being raised) in that environment, it wouldn't seem odd or clumsy at all, most likely. Just imagine the theme of 'sharing' you might find on a kids program, and replace it with 'slavery' :P. Also, certain apparently religious expressions - 'Children of God' for example - might be so commonly used that they are entirely natural even if they seem stilted to a cultural outsider at first read.
I like that the host's motivations are somewhat up for debate - and may indeed be mixed. He has his duty, which is the reason he uses, but there is also potentially fear of the Theology Council. A primary point I think, which has been established before, but a bit of re-emphasis is nice, is that the Amarr - just like everyone else - see themselves as the good guys.
On the PF front, we have confirmation of the Minmatar needing to 'earn' god's favor. We also have the 'Bleeding Hearts of Matar' - is this the first time they've been mentioned?
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http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=09-08-10
*throws hissyfit*
Not how I imagined Amarr media to be like at all...maybe it's Gallentean cultural permutation? I mean...gah...
Given I think the writer is new, so, might cut him some slack.
Honestly? Come now Seri I expected a bit more open-mindedness from you.
[spoiler]The cronicle was good. Pretty damn good actually - from the fact the Matari terrorists found a pretty vulnerable spot in the Amarrian society to strike at, to the reaction of the clown and his inner struggles to make a choice, and the reaction of his ex-wife, and the entire show itself.
But most of all it was good because it helped enforce what we all knew - at the end of the day, Amarrian's are human too, mis-guided perhaps, in a society that's far less fair than anyone of us are used too, but still fundamentally a creation of the human mind. I feel many players - or atl their characters - forget this all the time, and simply assume all Amarrians are fundamentally evil and deserve to die. My own used to forget this at times, only to regret later and add more to his personal issues.[/spoiler]
Adding a more human element to the 'ebil' Empire is a very nice touch. I wanna see more of this. For all factions.
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Well I posted my second opinion there. Just my opinion of Empire was something more medieval...I mean if you compare the ACN Coronation trailer to that chron, seems a bit inconsistent.
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I think when dealing with something as large as the Empire (and it doesn't get larger, really) a certain broadness of perspective might be beneficial.
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Well I posted my second opinion there. Just my opinion of Empire was something more medieval...I mean if you compare the ACN Coronation trailer to that chron, seems a bit inconsistent.
Well, yeah -- but the chronicle depicts a children's show while the ACN was the coronation of the empress. They're entirely different things.
Compare, say, the Teletubbies to a RL coronation and then argue inconsistency.
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The Empire consists of >40 % of humanity in New Eden.
Homogenous, it is not.
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Was I the only one who thought that the Book of Reclaiming quote was rather close to Sahtogas apocrypha? As in, possibly even the same origins, but different interpretation?
And yes, "most disappointing" that a Gallente cartoon channel doesn't sound like the Senate in session.
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*throws hissyfit*
Not how I imagined Amarr media to be like at all...maybe it's Gallentean cultural permutation? I mean...gah...
Given I think the writer is new, so, might cut him some slack.
Evangelical Christian media includes Rock, Rap, even Metal music, all devoted to worship.
They make movies too. Action, Drama, Comedy. They are lame as hell, but they are there.
Children's shows with a hard religious bent just like the one portrayed in the Chron actually exist. I had to watch them when I was a kid (Ugh). Dr. Adad's show reeks of familiarity to me.
The biggest LAN party I ever went to was hosted by a Church.
Religion may try to attack cultural advancement for a while, but inevitably, it tries to harness it for it's own purposes. Otherwise, religion is rejected by the new generations.
All of this is present day stuff. Why does the fact that it would exist 30,000 years from now confuse anyone?
I can't STAND these notions that all Amarrians do all day is sit on bended knee in a chapel, sing hymns, and rape slaves.
People really do have lazy imaginations.
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I thought it was a good chronicle.
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Brought to my mind the old communist state circuses and I am inclined to view it as pretty unsurprising and entirely in keeping with Amarr culture.
A good chronicle.
Cos
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I can't STAND these notions that all Amarrians do all day is sit on bended knee in a chapel, sing hymns, and rape slaves.
People really do have lazy imaginations.
I hear ya. I tire of that too and I'm not even RP'ing an Amarrian... :roll:
I nearly wish I could say 'I feel your pain' but I don't, closest I get is supposed RP'ers constantly reffering to my char as Gallente and all the things they assume Gallente folks do. Fucking annoying that was, tbh.
The cron was, as I said, a good piece of work, and I still would like to see more like this - if we had some more examples about how wide-ranging activeties and every-day life could be in the different empires people's imagination's could have more options to chew on. That could only be a good thing, imho.
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On the other, if popular media (or perhaps even just certain channels) tend to integrate the religious element, then to someone who was raise (or being raised) in that environment, it wouldn't seem odd or clumsy at all, most likely.
Perhaps worth pointing out that Nakregde II (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Nakregde) has an Amarr Certified News Development station in orbit.
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I enjoyed it as well.
Which is odd.
The Book of Reclaiming quote... its the basic thing that children, not metaphorical Children of God as in all humanity, as in children are the true innocents.
Nothing to do with the Apocrypha quote which refers to Gods Word being in everybody.
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I found this a rather touching story of how truly and deeply committed people can be to their faiths, even if a fictional faith I RPly fight.
Too bad you can't donate isk to NPC entities or interact with them easily.
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And it also serves to really reinforce the sheer danger faith poses in a universe such as Eve's. Be it the Amarr faith or something more simple like the innate drive to annihilate said faith. I really liked this story, because it justifies roleplaying the way of thinking that you saw in Du'uma Fiisi and the murder of over three hundred thousand slaves. (Justifies roleplaying that way, not justifying murder as a tool in real life here.)
*snip* Probably better to keep RL Religion out of it. - Silver
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I thought it was exceptionally good, for reasons already posted here by others. It was well written and I enjoyed the small twists and the various forces fighting with Dr. Adad.
Plus, anything that reveals the Amarr as not just "Hey, they're the medieval Catholic Church! All of them!" is very good.
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Those of us who live (or grew up) in religious subcultures recognize the sort of thing seen here on camera. I mean, if your goal is to teach children your values, whatever those values might be, you have to make it fun for them. This isn't restricted to the Gallente or anyone else.
Still need to think about the chronicle as a whole, but I quite enjoyed it and it will darken my whole day.
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While I like the story, my issue is that a lot of people, for example, state their inclination away from Gallente RP because it is too 'samey' to RL...and this chron could easily just have the Amarr references replaced with RL ones and it'd be the exact same :P
It's less about the Amarr Empire being 'medieval' or 'Catholics in space'...I'm sure there are plenty of other theocratic monarchies across science fiction in general that don't portray that vibe, but nor are they portrayed by having Western style children's shows with a Southern baptist clown either.
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[admin]Removing off-topic exchange. Please note that the general rule on the forum is to give others the benefit of the doubt. If something is unclear to you about something someone says, instead of posting in a way that might imply they aren't being truthful, please feel free to PM them so they can clarify rather than derailing the thread.Similarly if someone asks an off-topic question that you feel you need to respond to, it can be done via PM. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me, or start a thread in the appropriate section (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?board=12.0).[/admin]
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Sorry silver.
I've PM'ed Cosmo and hopefully he will answer an clear my confusion up. That is ofc assuming I've not messed up the PM system.
Carry on folks, nothing to see here...:P
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It's less about the Amarr Empire being 'medieval' or 'Catholics in space'...I'm sure there are plenty of other theocratic monarchies across science fiction in general that don't portray that vibe, but nor are they portrayed by having Western style children's shows with a Southern baptist clown either.
Except, of course, that such shows are hardly limited to Western cultures.
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I think Seri's issues are not that he's really not getting Amarrian society so much as he's not getting the "western society" which he seems to take major issue with.
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I liked the chronicle. Made the Amarr seem far more human and something you can relate to and less like a Nation made of the Spanish Inquisition in space with lasers. Especially since I've found myself very intrigued by the Amarr Empire of late.
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I think Seri's issues are not that he's really not getting Amarrian society so much as he's not getting the "western society" which he seems to take major issue with.
My issue is that the Amarr don't have to have an evangelical clown to prove that they are not just Catholic choir boys in space.
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I thought it was incredibly cleverly written, actually. I'll sum up what I babbled about in OOC:
We know that in the Amarr Empire, religion isn't so much a practice as a way of life. Unlike in Western society, which is sociopolitically secular while people choose to be religious, spiritual or atheistic, Amarrian faith is worked into every aspect of daily life.The Theology Council is the core of spiritual leadership in the Empire; the people look to them in every theological matter -- in other words, the activities of daily life.We really do not have an Earthly comparison to it.
A person who has faith -- solid faith, self-questioned, researched and accepted in the end -- is not the sort of person who can simply give it up; it takes a catastrophic change in circumstances, doubt so corrosive it's more a virus than a state of mind.
Bear with me, I'm going somewhere with this.
The clown's ex-wife mentions that he's afraid to upset the Theology Council. One of his sponsors is a member of the Kor-Azor family. I'll repeat that: the Kor-Azor Family. These are not minor holders, the clown is not a minor entertainment personality. He's someone who has proven his faith and whose ministry to the children of the Empire is approved of by the Theology Council.
Do you see where this is going?
His daughter is kidnapped in order to force him to renounce his faith in a live broadcast across the Empire. In front of billions of children, whose parents trust in the Theology Council to guide their way of life. The Council's ire would be the least of the resulting problems; in fact,they'd probably have far greater concerns than one disgraced entertainer -- and his highly-placed sponsors, who would also be disgraced and likely out for blood.
For someone with such unshakeable faith to openly denounce it would imply a sudden and deep doubt in the very basis of Amarrian life; the root of which would be seen as the fault of the Theology Council. They approved the guy, after all. You'd have billions of people suddenly losing a little faith in the ability of the Council to minister to their spiritual lives. It would cause an upheaval in Amarrian society which would take YEARS to iron out, and things would never be the same.
Well done, Jasonitas. He's not actually that new, Seri, I met him at FanFest last year :)
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CCP should just write a chron similar to Dark End of Space, showing a day-in-the-life of one citizen of each of the four factions...
So many easy ways to reveal stuff about PF >_> But I guess CCP wants us to use our imaginations
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Well, if you really want CCP to stop assuming we're adults who are capable of logical reasoning and just start spoonfeeding us everything... GB2WoW :P
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Well, if you really want CCP to stop assuming we're adults who are capable of logical reasoning and just start spoonfeeding us everything... GB2WoW :P
AUCH - uncalled for :P
Also, thanks. I like this cronicle even better now - I missed that part about his sponsors etc.
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I like the last sentence; it really underscores his feelings in an artful manner.
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Well, if you really want CCP to stop assuming we're adults who are capable of logical reasoning and just start spoonfeeding us everything... GB2WoW :P
AUCH - uncalled for :P
Also, thanks. I like this cronicle even better now - I missed that part about his sponsors etc.
Part of what I love about Eve is how subtle the background information can be, bits and pieces seeded through the fiction. If it was all neatly organised and catalogued from the start, there'd be hardly any reason to continue reading.
The LACK of detailed information feeds diversity in Eve roleplay, since we're all kind of making it up as we go. We have a vast variety of characters, backgrounds and lifestyles depicted in the RP community because there is no document giving the specifics of daily life. As it should be, since with a hundred inhabited worlds and thousands of stations, each containing thousands to billions of people, there will be countless cultures existing under the aegis of their empire.
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I know, a bit of necromancing on my part here, but I actually thought that this chron has also shown very well that those kids aren't really that innocent anymore...
“Yes, I am. I watch it every day.” The girl’s face flushed a dark crimson as she moved her hands behind her back and straightened her posture. “I named my favorite slave after Mr. Wayward.”
Cherall’s smile softened slightly as he continued to search through the desk, opening another drawer and sticking his hand deep into its recesses. “That’s very clever of you. Does your daddy mind that you renamed one of his slaves?”
“No, not at all. He finds it rather amusing, as do I.” The girl waved back and forth lightly on her heels as she talked.
Just for fun they take away a slave's real name, taking away the very last bit of dignity he might have. Those kids are on their way to turn out as even bigger monsters then their parents.
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I probably shouldn't add to the necromancy here, but I would have to disagree about the innocent part. Innocence doesn't really mean being moral. It just means you don't know any better. An innocent child will think nothing of frying ants until someone tells them what they are really doing. Yes, we look at taking someone's name away as cruel, but the kid doesn't know any better. To her, slaves are people you order around and who have to obey you. She probably thinks its a funny name to give her favorite slave. If you went thought this section and replaced the word slave with the word dog, I doubt any of us would think twice about renaming a dog Mr Wayward. We would probably think it was funny too. That a bit of a simplistic example, but I hope it gets my point across.
Actually, this passage reminds me of a scene from Roots, where a girl had gotten the house slaves to be animals for her Christmas play. Once one of the slaves told her they didn't like doing that, she stopped it.
Not the really defend the Amarr or slavery though, I just wanted to point that out.
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Yeah, what Saikoyu said, I highly doubt the child is aware that they are being "evil", as slaves is very much apart of their known world. No one is there to tell them that slavery is perhaps wrong, as there is no moral compass that exists following a liberal approach of anti-slavery.
Would a child that wears Nike trainers be evil because Nike uses oppressive labour methods in Southeast Asia? Stuff like that.
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Maybe, but still: Those children are not innocent anymore, because of that show they are losing their innocence
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There are no such realities as good and evil in New Eden.
Just like in real life.
People work with the concepts and the facts that they possess, that is why propaganda works.
Even your concepts of good and evil, right or wrong, innocence and decadence, have been taught to you.
Very few things that you actually know are universal.
Good and evil are very low in that ladder of universal concepts.
Those used to be the 'rules' that New Eden worked with before... it all turned to a space opera.
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There are no such realities as good and evil in New Eden.
Just like in real life.
People work with the concepts and the facts that they possess, that is why propaganda works.
Even your concepts of good and evil, right or wrong, innocence and decadence, have been taught to you.
Very few things that you actually know are universal.
Good and evil are very low in that ladder of universal concepts.
Those used to be the 'rules' that New Eden worked with before... it all turned to a space opera.
Sure thing. It just bothered me that everywhere I look people declare the Bloody Hand as the bad guys and the clown as the hero in this story but, but fail to notice that he is actually corrupting those children
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No he is not.
He is teaching them what he believes to be right.
You perceive him corrupting them from your own worldview.
You could argue that anyone that teaches that there is a divinity is corrupting people and not allowing them to reach emotional balance and self sufficiency that is the birthright of every human.
But that is just a viewpoint, based on a worldview.
There are people using these boards that actually know in their heart of hearts that the argument above is completely and utterly false, while there are people on these boards that know it to be completely and utterly true.
Throwing around strong words like corruption, just show your personal viewpoint on the issue and how you are emotionally invested in your own worldview and perceive it to be right.
I guess what I am trying to get through is when you proclaim your viewpoint to be right, by the choice of the concepts that you are using to convey your viewpoint, you try to force other people to share your view... which to me is not right.
The children are innocent in the chron, the fact that one of them has named a slave as character from the show actually proves it.
Innocence is not about being without Sin, Innocence is doing something and not knowing better.
Innocence is pretty much a religious term and Adam was perfectly innocent in the bible when he had sex with every living thing in the Garden of Eden before God created Eve for him. Both of them were innocent and could do just about anything until they ate the Forbidden Fruit which made them know better.
I'm better go get some brekkies before I spend the whole fecking day here :D
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Wowowow, hold your horses, I did NOT want to start a discussion on religion here, but on those kids and how they treat other humans.
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To those kids slaves are not humans.
Because they are told so.
By the nice man on the telly.
Just like all the kids in real world are told what is right and wrong by the nice man on the telly.
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Echoing Lallara here pretty much, both his tl;dr and original post.
His post wasn't really about religion, it was more about pointing out the fact that to the kids slaves were no different from dogs or cats, because they didn't know better and thus the child was still innnocent. From western point of view yeah it's fucked up that they don't see the difference and take away last strips of humanity from the slave by taking his name, but from an Amarrian point of view everything is as it should be in the normal order of things, maybe a little funny and cute that the child would show such affection towards a slave.
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Wowowow, hold your horses, I did NOT want to start a discussion on religion here, but on those kids and how they treat other humans.
It's not really about religion, religion and the Amarrian faith is just how the Empire does things and justify their way of life.
Let me make a comparison for you.
My toon in-game is not innocent. He believes that Serpentis operatives and anyone that works for Sarpathi deserves to be shot or otherwise killed, he does honestly think this is the right thing to do, his justifications are many and varied and highly provable in-universe. His actions are justified from his point of view.
Still, in the world-view of said serpents they are doing a job to feed their kids living in Fountain and elsewhere. My toon KNOWS that these people do what they do because they live in former colony settlements that were taken over and run by what the empires consider to be criminals, and that while the peoples of the Federation suffer due to their 'work', these people have little choice in the matter; they can work for the serpentis corporation that owns EVERYTHING in their entire world, and regulate everything, or face the consequences of saying 'no'. Despite knowing this, he can't forgive them and as such goes out of his way to harm the Serpentis corporation for their crimes against his own people, no matter who among them may suffer and die in the process.
By the standards of his own people (the Intaki of Intaki V) the more naive or soft-hearted might name him a monster or label him 'evil' much as any serpents would - their children will miss their fathers and mothers much as anyone in the Federation, or elsewhere, the serpents hurt will miss theirs. He knows this, but he persists and he goes on, regardless.
The Amarrian girl in the cronicle, is different. She is the daughter of an Amarrian pure-blood in the Empire and has lived her entire, short life (10 years? 12, 14?) with her faith, tought to her from infancy, and with slaves looking out for her. This is her life, it's all she knows and likely as normal as going to school and making friends 'in the free world' would be for anyone of us. The Minmatar Republic don't concern her, if she 'knows' anything about it it's likely to be distorted by her people's view-point. It's effectively an alien society to her, much like the Empire would be quite alien to a free-born Minmatar girl on Pator the same age as this Amarrian. Neither of them know any better, and both are likely to be spoken of as 'evil' 'misguided' 'wrong' and as 'the enemy' by their respective peers. Both are ignorant of the cruel realities of the EVE-universe, this makes both of them innocent.
The clown teaching theology on TV in his own way is not 'corrupting' the children. He teaches them the 'truth' as viewed by the Amarrian Empire in general. The Matari girl on Pator sits down with her friends to listen to elder Matari recant the tales of their people and educate them about their past and culture. This elder is not 'corrupting' her either. He teaches her the 'truth' - from the Matari point of view. If this point of view were that Amarrians are evil and deserve to die for their Empire's crimes, would you say he 'corrupts' this girl too? The Amarrians might - we players should not.