Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: lallara zhuul on 02 Sep 2011, 02:38
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Part of the mindset of every conspiracy theorist/nut is that there is the shadow masters pulling strings that make the world go around with a certain malevolent intent and a plan.
In real life this is pretty much untrue, if you a rudimentary understanding on how evolution works then you can see that pretty much everything that the rules of causality on societal level pretty much follow the same rules as on a personal level. Trained response to a given stimulus time and again, when something happens that cannot be explained through the linear rules that the mentality of status quo is run with there is a state of panic. Pretty much the whole world is in a constant state of of shock because everything that happens seems to surprise every one, constantly. Which would lead to the logical conclusion that there is no plan, there are no conspiracies or shadow masters.
While all of the above should be taken with a grain of salt, in the world of New Eden such is not the case.
There is the Elders, Holders, Reborn, Enheduanni (yes, I said it), Jovians, Master Kuvakei, Broker and the average lifespan of close to two centuries for a regular person (the general in the Templar One excerpt was 160 years old.)
There are four empires that are pretty much molded to the same blueprint several thousands of years later as they were founded upon.
Each and every one of those empires have their own internal thought police, built in mechanism to get rid of malcontents in a way that is beneficial to the empire itself.
So...
What I have been wondering lately about is that these facts kind of paint a picture that each and every empire have their own plan, unstoppable intent that spans centuries upon centuries where individuals are meaningless, internal need to reach a goal that was determined oh so many years ago in the foundation of each and every empire.
What is the goal?
What is the plan on how to get there?
Hmmmh, better eat brekkies before I start waxing poetic.
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The Jove want enough of us to get high enough skillpoint totals that we can actually contain their minds, so they can download into us enmasse, leave their broken brains/bodies behind, and save their race...in time to stop the 'other Jove' from re-opening the EVE-Gate.
Just a hunch. 8)
As for that other stuff, who knows?
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Well, for the Empire its pretty simple.
It was 'created to cultivate the spirit of Man.'
Whatever that means.
There are a few things about the Amarrians that eliminate some possibilities.
Transhumanism through technology is not one of them, Amarrians have had the technology for prolonged lifespans through cloning for at least two thousand years and from cybernetic implantation since the days of the Avetat and Ametat. It's not any kind of stretch that the cybernetic implantation could have been used to modify the physical and the mental capabilities of the Amarrians during that time.
They have chosen not to, why, because it's not part of the plan.
When talking about transhumanism people always talk about the singularity as well, when super intelligences roam the land.
Perhaps the Amarrian plan is not to have a singularity out of intelligence, but of something else.
They are realists in the sense that there can not be a singular entity without its parts sharing most of the important characteristics, hence the Reclaiming, cultural slavery and turning all of humanity into this cultural entity where everyone shares similar ways of thinking because of the basic concepts that the religion provides.
/shrug
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Individuals have long range plans like that.
Huge Empires do not, unless there is a lone controlling group who can plan multi-generationally. Even in Amarr, there are competing groups who undo each other's machinations.
The goal of each of the Empires is to survive. All that other stuff you listed are the goals of only certain people within them.
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I am going to attempt to make myself sound intelligent and respond to this...
The way I see it, each "empire" has separate motivations because of a very different perspective on existence and subsequent purpose. For instance:
The Amarr are driven by their religion, so much so that they have formed a theocracy. (Which is actually an aristocracy ruled by an parliamentary monarchical theocracy.) Their religion teaches them to be introspective, constantly examining themselves for righteousness and then tasks them with the purpose of spreading their religion to every planet in the heavens. Several doctrines in their religion dictate what is acceptable and what isn't, hence the disdain for capsuleers (and clones in general), their viewpoint on the Matari (and subsequently every heathen) and the way they interact (or don't) with others. The greater plan for the Amarr is for all people to be under their rule, under their god until their god brings all people into his presence.
The Matari are driven primarily by two things: an intimate spiritual connection to the worlds and lives around them (Matari spirituality) and freedom of tribal identity (various cultures all beheld to the same spirits but admonishing different ones and different aspects of them). Primarily, the Matari have a "spirituality" belief, in that they understand there to be several spirits that are constantly guiding creation toward its ultimate resolution. (Some would call the spirits "gods" but to Matari see them far more intimately than that, something much more personal.) They believe that these spirits dictate destiny and purpose to each person, manifested in the Voluval and that each person's task in life is to fulfill their destiny in order to join with the spirits upon death. The ultimate goal of the Matari would be a fulfilled life leading to a peaceful death accomplished by service to family, clan and tribe in tune with their guiding spirits.
The Gallente are primarily driven by liberty and individual freedoms. As such, they tend to have no overpowering theological or religious motivation and their political position tends to be driven by whatever the most popular and influential viewpoint is at the time. Because of this, they tend to grown on all forms of oppressive expansion or enforced conformity and believe that everyone should be free to live and die as they choose. The ultimate goal of the Gallente would be absolute freedom for everyone to live their life as they see fit, subject to whatever god, spirit or belief (or lack thereof) that they choose to be and that all of humanity be humane to one another unto that end.
The Caldari are driven by a belief that their ancestors are watching over them, that family name and honor are of the utmost importance and the primary duty to each individual. As such, each person must strive to dedicate their all toward their family and subsequently humanity through their talents and merits. Those who do so will be revered, respected and elevated in society. The ultimate goal of the Caldari would be that each human would be judged according to their merit, giving all toward the advancement and betterment of humanity as a whole and thus bringing honor and respect to themselves and their family.
Ultimately, you have religious motivations (Amarr/Matari) and humanist motivations (Gallente/Caldari) with each empire's end goals simply being what they view as the ultimate existence for themselves and humanity as a whole.
At least, that's my very limited understanding from my very limited time in EVE.
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The ultimate goal of the Caldari would be that each human would be judged according to their merit, giving all toward the advancement and betterment of humanity as a whole and thus bringing honor and respect to themselves and their family.
"Each human" should be "each caldari", and not bound by blood, as well as this being less of a goal and more of an expectancy. The goal for the caldari people and therefore the State would be more being the strongest military and economic might in New Eden to ensure the safety and independance of their culture. It is not about going out there to convert others.
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... The greater plan for the Amarr is for all people to be under their rule, under their god until their god brings all people into his presence.
... The ultimate goal of the Matari would be a fulfilled life leading to a peaceful death accomplished by service to family, clan and tribe in tune with their guiding spirits.
... The ultimate goal of the Gallente would be absolute freedom for everyone to live their life as they see fit, subject to whatever god, spirit or belief (or lack thereof) that they choose to be and that all of humanity be humane to one another unto that end.
... The ultimate goal of the Caldari would be that each human would be judged according to their merit, giving all toward the advancement and betterment of humanity as a whole and thus bringing honor and respect to themselves and their family.
It's just a mask. It's all about power, wealth and domination.
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There's plenty of evidence from the bits of history we DO have that the cultures of New Eden have evolved and changed over time, so I would disagree with the notion they are static entities with singular goals.
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Enjoying the corrections/reflections on it. I had a feeling my rather long wall of text would encourage response. It's a learning experience for me, a chance to see what everyone else thinks (most of you have been here longer than me).
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Your interpretations are the same, or virtually so, as mine, Malcom. I dont think any of the empires set out to be "good" or "evil" in any way, just a different set of cultural ideals that most within those nations hold as proper, good, and right.
I cannot say anything about the Gallente/Caldari, but fwiw, the Amarr/Minmatar seem, to me, to be spot on. The Amarr are not innately "evil" nor the Minmatar "good". Sure, some in power on both sides will be tyrants, some will rise to the top as saints, but in the end, most are just people, trying to get through life as well as they can, defined by the culture they are immersed in.
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The greater plan for the Amarr is for all people to be under their rule, under their god until their god brings all people into his presence.
The ultimate goal of the Matari would be a fulfilled life leading to a peaceful death accomplished by service to family, clan and tribe in tune with their guiding spirits.
The ultimate goal of the Gallente would be absolute freedom for everyone to live their life as they see fit, subject to whatever god, spirit or belief (or lack thereof) that they choose to be and that all of humanity be humane to one another unto that end.
The ultimate goal of the Caldari would be that each human would be judged according to their merit, giving all toward the advancement and betterment of humanity as a whole and thus bringing honor and respect to themselves and their family.
Personally, I think that given the populations of the various polities, that there would be more difference between people in the same polity than there would be between them - that is to say that I think it is a mistake to characterise all, or perhaps even a majority of, Matari as having "an intimate spiritual connection to the worlds and lives around them" as much as it would be to say that "all Amarrians are fanatical religious zealots".
I think there will be Matari who are religious zealots, and probably Amarrians who think they have a spiritual connection to the worlds and lives around them, Gallente who believe in judging people on their merits, and Caldari who think there is more to life than profit.
Which is why every time someone says "The Matari/Amarrians/Caldari/Gallente are like this..." instead of "Some of x are like ..." or possibly even "Many x are like ..." it triggers all sorts of warning bells in my stereotype detector machine, and I find the argument unpersuasive.
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That's fair Ulphus.
I was sort of trying to analyze the races as a greater whole, not really a "most are this way" kind of thing, but I can see where it comes off that way.
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This thread needs more tinfoil.
Assume the Sefrim were real. Who were they, are they still pulling threads, what they really want? What if the Sani Sabik run the Empire?
Gallente underworld. Come on, do you really believe that the President or the fools in the Senate, the seventeen gods forbid, control the Federation?
Caldari. Yeah. Shareholders. The Shadow Megacorporations. Who really controls Caldari? Are there extra-corporate players? Other people like the Broker, only more Mary Sue?
Minmatar. Yeah, they only want to be free. Elders and the Sanmatar really are not Endehuanni puppets. I think all of our knowledge of the E-folks come from Jove, so I say that the Jove just made up the "Dark Jove" to fuck with the poor non-transhumanists.
Capsuleers. Jove were just being very, very kind to share military technology that isn't really understood even almost two hundred years later by the other empires. Now what is the actual purpose of the Jove "capsuleer experiment"? Should we feel a bit like a Charisoco?
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That is pretty much what I was aiming for.
What has been constant in the empires since their conception?
Who holds the real power?
It is pretty clear that the Holder class in the Empire runs things and because of their long lifespan they can make plans that are from a completely different scale than of those that live only for a single century.
For the Republic the leadership that the regular Matari sees is the leadership of the Tribe, but behind them are the Elders.
In the Federation it is pretty clear that the ones that created the old economic backbone are the ones that are still calling the shots, its just that the population think that they have the freedom brought to them by democracy.
For the State... I have no idea...
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For the State... I have no idea...
I would assume that the major shareholders, CEOs, and directors of the Big Eight hold the real power in the State. Heth's control over the State is helped by his political chokehold and the Caldari Providence Directorate (Provists), but it is still based on his legal control over several major corporations. It is only because he managed to maneuver into this position of corporate authority that he's able to exert his plans... otherwise, he'd just be ignored by the rest of the CEOs and their respective corporations.
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Even in the State, before the megacorporations came into power, some part of the population had the economic and political power.
For the Feds it most likely the nobility of the old monarchy.
Who was it for the State, those who manipulated the situation the best for their own interest, when the Feds came, or someone who was constantly keeping the reins of power in its hands since day one.
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Would there be a reason to think that those who held power before the Megacorporations came into power didn't reserve front row seats to the new power bloc themselves?
What's to say who you're talking about, and who I'm talking about... aren't the same people? Not LITERALLY the same people, of course.. but you get the idea.
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The thing is...
The governments in all of the other empires are just obfuscation, ways of appeasing the masses, while the real decisions on how the empires are run are made elsewhere.
The religion, therefore the whole concept of the Holy Spiritual Empire of the Amarrians is a way of appeasing the population.
The Tribes and the republic government is the same.
The Freedom of the individual in the Federation is completely shackled by the necessities of the economy.
Why would it be different in the State?
If a similar view would be built on the State from the opposite end by creating causality and how things are in the other empires.
First thing you would do is to take the basic ideas that the empire is motivated with and say that they are false.
For the State that would mean that the meritocracy is an illusion.
The whole economic system and governmental system would be a lie.
What would it leave to run the whole place?
Feds have the old nobility from the monarchy.
Amarrians have the Holders.
Minnies have their Elders.
They all are outside of the culture of their own empires.
Predeterminism of a life of a noble in a society that laurels individual freedom.
Holders are purely secular.
Elders override every individualistic instinct that the Minnies have.
Did that make it clearer or just a bit more muddled?
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More muddled.
What's this about Matari having individualist instincts? :P
Also, in what sense do you think the Elders -- whoever they are -- run things-that-matter in people's daily lives?
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Pissing off the Empire might have an effect on the lives of regular Minmatar. Or then the entire purpose of the Minmatar Republic might be to be a thorn on the side of the Amarr Empire, keeping them from becoming too powerful. If any of the four main empires would get too dominant and able to start to ignore other empires military-wise, they might have time for further scientific advances. Which might not be optimal for all. What did Sansha Kuvakei find out? Were the True Slaves the real reason the other empires suddenly forgot their differences and attacked his Nation?
As for the Federation, it is quite romantic to think the nobles held power in the first place. If Gallente nobles are anything like our nobles, they were in debt (fiscally) to the movers and shakers of the financial world.
Who controls the shareholders of the State? Do they also have influence on the Guristas? The megacorps compete with each other, and while they superficially have made somewhat permanent alliances (factions, blocks), Oceania still has always been at war with Eurasia. (For the reference, I understand it is hinted that in Orwell's 1984 there may be a World Government that simply keeps its citizens under control by making war with itself.) Of course, that kind of doesn't fit the State, but a secret (not-so-Mercantile) club of important shareholders and other powerful people would fit the setting very well.
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As for the Federation, it is quite romantic to think the nobles held power in the first place. If Gallente nobles are anything like our nobles, they were in debt (fiscally) to the movers and shakers of the financial world.
I've generally thought of them as being a mix of entitled-but-powerless and entitled-because-the-royal-authorities-needed-their-money-or-military-support (e.g. the Medicis). I do imagine that noble titles might have gone out of fashion when the assorted Gallentean monarchies converted/evolved/devolved/revolved into democracies. :P
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What's this about Matari having individualist instincts? :P
Since when I was part of the Amarr-Minmatar conflict the view that Minmatars are noble savages seemed to be the consensus.
Ginger was very convinced about this, we used to butt our heads about it in chatsubo back in the golden days when the people from the neuromancer forums moved there and actually talked about things.
The thing about the Elders is that PF pretty much states that if an Elder would give a gun to any Minmatar person and tell him/her to kill him/herself first the Minnie would put the gun in his/her mouth and pull the trigger, if the gun would not be loaded another way of committing suicide would be found.
Hence the Elders being completely in conflict with the mentality and the practice of the Republic, and its people.
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I think in teh DUST chronicle, one of the minmatar characters sort of laughs at the idea of the Elders.
something like "I don't care about the "Elders" and their prophecies"
which could mean that at least some Minmatar aren't so indoctrinated that they are nothing more than pawns of the Elders.
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Since when I was part of the Amarr-Minmatar conflict the view that Minmatars are noble savages seemed to be the consensus.
Ginger was very convinced about this, we used to butt our heads about it in chatsubo back in the golden days when the people from the neuromancer forums moved there and actually talked about things.
"Noble savage" seems to me to be one of those concepts that only really exists in the heads of people who aren't the "noble savages" in question. It's sort of the equivalent of "They have their good points, but they're still savages, so we can ignore their preferences and desires in order to educate them - it's for their own good really". Hardly an objective truth.
I don't think the Matari are "noble" or "savages". I think there are good people and bad people who are Matari; altruists and scumbags; victims and criminals;poor people and rich people; top end scientists and the uneducated. Much like any other large enough group of people.
The thing about the Elders is that PF pretty much states that if an Elder would give a gun to any Minmatar person and tell him/her to kill him/herself first the Minnie would put the gun in his/her mouth and pull the trigger, if the gun would not be loaded another way of committing suicide would be found.
Hence the Elders being completely in conflict with the mentality and the practice of the Republic, and its people.
Could you provide some hints about where to look in the PF for that bit about the Elders being able to order the suicide of any given Minmatar?
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Pissing off the Empire might have an effect on the lives of regular Minmatar.
Yeah, but any random group that can be spun as vaguely related could have the same impact. It doesn't mean the Matar People's Freedom Party is running things.
Or then the entire purpose of the Minmatar Republic might be to be a thorn on the side of the Amarr Empire, keeping them from becoming too powerful.
There are plenty of entities which might have vested interests in maintaining hostilities.
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Ulphus: I think I got the impression of that from Theodicy.
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The Elders have some kind of plan (incidentally this plan is manipulate/directed by the enhedunces), and they require the bloodlines of all the tribes.
They have those bloodlines now, and so ran off into weirdspace, leaving the Republic minmatar (who arent as cravenly subservient to the Elder whatnots) to act as a sponge, paying in blood to stop any interference in the Elder/Enhedunnies Grand Plan.
The minmatar have traded Amarrian masters, for being tools of the Elder/Endhuenni.
Jack swapping the cow for the magic beans, it is not.
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Ulphus: I think I got the impression of that from Theodicy.
I only read the first 3 or 4 pages of Theodicy before I couldn't read any more. The impression I got was that there was some over-riding control mechanism for the slave in the first couple of pages, but it wasn't clear to me whether the author was implying that this individual slave had been implanted, or that all slaves, or all Matari.
/me shrugs
Since I saw only the one slave under control, I assumed it was just a few slaves, but it was one of the reasons I didn't read any further.
This does rather remind me of what I dislike about Eve...
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Ulphus: I think I got the impression of that from Theodicy.
I only read the first 3 or 4 pages of Theodicy before I couldn't read any more. The impression I got was that there was some over-riding control mechanism for the slave in the first couple of pages, but it wasn't clear to me whether the author was implying that this individual slave had been implanted, or that all slaves, or all Matari.
/me shrugs
Since I saw only the one slave under control, I assumed it was just a few slaves, but it was one of the reasons I didn't read any further.
This does rather remind me of what I dislike about Eve...
The Empyrean Age kind of clarifies things. Not all Minmatar are implanted. Specific operatives of the Elders are. Keitan Yun (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2063&tid=4) wasn't implanted, for instance, but his bodyguard Ameline was.
On whether there are plans or not, they would have to be Xanatos Roulettes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosRoulette) of "EPIC!" magnitude, especially considering that the Empires all changed over a matter of hours during the course of TEA, and in the face of the slew of Xanatos Roulette Pileups put forth in that novel alone.
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There was a Plan. Then in 2005 the people with the plan left. They took it with them.
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There was a Plan. Then in 2005 the people with the plan left. They took it with them.
;)
On the initial thrust of the thread though, You can't really have a plan thinking that far ahead. You can have a blueprint, set in stone or otherwise, that can last that long. A general, "This is how you do things," book. A bible if you will. You might even call it scriptures.
Add in the fact that the Caldari and Gallente were both from the same star system, and that the Minmatar really didn't have an Empire to speak of, at least no one in the traditional sense... it only leaves one real "Empire" that has gone unchanged. Remember, the Caldari broke away from the Federation. There were originally only two real "Empires". A well balanced equation.
Without help, you could argue that the Minmatar wouldn't have rebelled (successfully). Without "help" in the form of the Capsule, the stalemate of the Cal-Gal war might have continued, and perhaps the Amarr could have easily defeated what was left after a long and bloody war. The Amarr would have been the Masters of New Eden. The Universe would have been Reclaimed.
All hail our Amarrian Overlords and whatnot.
So, who's plan does that leave? What one Empire has stood the test of time, only suffering from minor changes over the years?
The Amarr. Oh, and one other...
Think about it. Every time the balance is thrown out of whack, someone steps in and intervenes. For the Cal-Gal war and the Rebellion, it was the Jove. Their ancient enemy? The Enheduanni. Could it be a variation of Enheduanna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enheduanna)? Now, the tinfoil gets a bit thick here, but think:
Inanna/Ishtar/Skymother/EVE? ;) You want a real disturbing possibility, I'd look into this. :twisted:
Also, there's some old hymns about Enheduanna's apotheosis, becoming a deity upon her death... the EVE wormhole closed, yet there's still a structure there. ::whistles innocently::
Yeah, there's a plan. It's not the plan you'd expect though.
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The Enheduanni are from 2006.
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The Enheduanni are from 2006.
The who-in-the-what now?
EDIT: To further clarify, if there's one thing I've learned about writing for video games that I've learned from books written by people who write for video games, it's that everyone has their pet ideas. Everyone has their own ideas on how the storyline should progress. Producers, designers, programmers and QA; they've all get their hands in the pie at some point. Just look at CCP (apparently after 2006). Sometimes, Timmy has to take Old Yeller out behind the barn*. Other times, Shane rides off into the sunset, slumped over his horse, and people debate whether he's really dead or just "sleeping".
tl;dr: There are no Enheduanni, unless it/they fit in with a future expansion. Just like said plans prior to 2005.
*I may or may not have ever seen that movie, and the names may or may not have been made up entirely by my brain.