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[Drua Farsight]

Yea I'd for sure say getting caught outside your pod is basically getting caught with your pants down to Capsuleers, you enter a state where you're pretty much just as mortal and squishy as everyone else in the universe. I imagine there are some form of 'backup' clone systems but I'd say they'd be pretty unreliable. In my mind they'd be 'make a clone, keep it in stasis or whatever until a certain perimeter is met (in this case I'd say 'flat lineing' and the loss of bodily functions) and then it gets released.

I'd say then the problem with that is it's only as skilled as whenever the backup was made, and unless you're a blend of paranoid insane and super rich, you can't keep updating it constantly. Honestly it'd make a good plot, I'd say, Capsuleer gets shot in the face, comes back a week or so later but seems to have just plain forgotten the last year of his life.

So yea, maybe a guy with a huge amount of connections and cash could find 'immortality', as long as he doesn't mind constantly losing major chunks of his life if he gets shot outside the pod. Of course, his enemies could pretty easily exploit that too. "Hey buddy, what, enemies? Nah we signed that peace treaty with our syndicates, remember? Musta happened after you made this backup huh?"

[Louella Dougans]

Two things in PF

[spoiler]In the Empyrean Age, one of the major characters is a man who is a clone that is animated without the right mind state.[/spoiler]
This suggests a clone could be activated without a scan, but would require quite a lot of therapy to cope with the amnesia.

[spoiler]In the Amarr epic arc, a clone is created using a stored brain pattern, from someone executed by brain-scanning.[/spoiler]
It is possible to store a mind state, and use it to activate a clone, after a period of time.

Therefore, I suspect that with the right facilities (which may/may not be entirely legal), you could scan a person, creating a clone plus a long term storable mind state, that could then be used as a backup, although memories of events since then would vanish.


Also, Jovians, Enheduanny, the Borker, etc. etc

[Isobel Mitar]

Soft cloning is conjecture, but it's based on the fact that jump cloning must use a different process than emergency cloning.

Does it? I have so far found only one kind of cloning process described (the burning scan), so I have assumed the the simplest explanation fits: The same cloning process is used for both emergency and jump cloning.

Implants being destroyed by emergency cloning but not by jump cloning can be explained by the damage to implants coming from pod breach and being exposed to space, instead of the scan process.

[Silver Night]

I think it is also that there is a brain left behind in a jump clone that can be re-inhabited. If a destructive burn turned the brain to slurry, you wouldn't be able to jump back into that clone, on would think.

I know I have used the 'soft-scan' idea here and there, more in fiction than in RP. I think that there is sufficient plausibility there, from PF, that I'm comfortable with using it until CCP writes something to the contrary.

[Horatius Caul]

Soft cloning is conjecture, but it's based on the fact that jump cloning must use a different process than emergency cloning.

Does it? I have so far found only one kind of cloning process described (the burning scan), so I have assumed the the simplest explanation fits: The same cloning process is used for both emergency and jump cloning.

Implants being destroyed by emergency cloning but not by jump cloning can be explained by the damage to implants coming from pod breach and being exposed to space, instead of the scan process.

As Silver pointed out, it's not so much that the implants remain, but that you can transfer back into the same brain - evidently still in good condition.

[Isobel Mitar]

I think it is also that there is a brain left behind in a jump clone that can be re-inhabited. If a destructive burn turned the brain to slurry, you wouldn't be able to jump back into that clone, on would think.

The cloning PF describes that brains of emergency clones are constructed, so a burned out brain in a jump clone would only be hinder jumping until it is replaced by a new "blank" one. And one can't clone jump except every 23 hours, right?

[Silver Night]

I'm not sure that swapping in fresh, new brains that implants are then transplanted into is more likely than there being a non-destructive scan that leaves both brain and implants intact for reuse.

I suppose that both are plausible enough (eve-tech-wise).

[Gottii]

I think it is also that there is a brain left behind in a jump clone that can be re-inhabited. If a destructive burn turned the brain to slurry, you wouldn't be able to jump back into that clone, on would think.

Actually, I think this is an assumption, one that I dont think the text supports.  Its not explicit that we jump back into the same clone, just that we jump back into the same location.

Clone bodies, for capsuleers, are quite disposable.  They're also quite recyclable, being made from just about any bio-mass around.  (preferably human cadavers, but I assume its like making sausage, we dont want to know what goes on).

So, heres my assumption regarding clone jump, that, given everything we've read, scanning a brain kills the brain.  So, heres my argument on how clone jumping works, followed by some textual backing for it.  

If you want to clone jump, you hook yourself up to the neural scanners, and, basaed on what we hear about, the neural scan kills that clone's brain during the scanning and subsequent jump.  Your consciousness, now on the other side of the cluster in a fresh clone, go on your merry way.

Now, back in your old clone, they begin to reprocess your dead clone.  Within 24 hrs, they recreate a new clone from biomass, and you're free to jump back into it.  

  Keep in mind, that to jump clone, you need a high standing with a corporation, you need facilities.  And what are those facilities called?  In a supercap ship, they're called Clone Vat Bays.  

Not "Clone Storage", Clone Vats.  A vat isnt someplace you keep a clone in storage.  It is a place to turn clone biomass into new clones.  

The only handwaving in this explanation is that your implants are removed from the dead clone, and placed into the pre-living clone, which isn't unreasonable given that you need to have access to jump clone medical facilities of a station or supercap to make a clone jump.

Now, when you jump back to your old location, you're jumping back into a new clone, one with a new brain.  

The Chronicles actually indirectly supports this explanation.  If you read One Man Too Many, it is about an insanely rich head of a megacorp clone jumping back home.  Here is one of the first lines.

"Pier Ancru slowly came to, relishing in the feeling of energy returning to his previously limp body. He flexed a few of his muscles, they felt familiar, yet he knew this was the first time they were under his direct control. "

Emphasis mine.  Basically, the main character is clone jumping back home, but he's jumping back into a new clone, one hes never directly controlled before.  And if he's jumping back to his home, why isn't he jumping back into his prior clone?  The straight line answer is that its brain is fried, because neural scan seems to always kill the brain.

Given the PF, I think its safe to assume that brain scanning always does kill the brain.

I think if there is a "soft clone" alternative, given PF, its based off of uploading ones thoughts into a computer, and then downloading it into a clone.  Though, that seems to be extremely rare and noteworthy.

[Silver Night]

Except that we know that clones are expensive. Clearly there is something of a hand-wave when it comes to setting up the JCs in the first place, but your theory would extend that to a fresh entire clone each time a jump was made. Though this is one of those places where game mechanics are probably different than what the 'reality' in the world of Eve would be, so I'm not sure how valid the criticism is.

In the pod the scan has to be quick, because if it wasn't the brain would be too damaged - from either the exposure or the neurotoxin. While it's possible that the destructiveness is intrinsic to the scanning process at any speed, I think it is also plausible that it is a symptom of the requirements of the particular function that the burner plays in a pod. I don't see anything that suggests that they can't do a scan that is non-destructive and more than sufficient in a laboratory setting with a larger amount of time.

Basically, like I said, I find the whole thing 'grey' enough that I feel comfortable playing it with soft-clones being possible until there is more PF one way or another.

[Gottii]

Except that we know that clones are expensive. Clearly there is something of a hand-wave when it comes to setting up the JCs in the first place, but your theory would extend that to a fresh entire clone each time a jump was made. Though this is one of those places where game mechanics are probably different than what the 'reality' in the world of Eve would be, so I'm not sure how valid the criticism is.

In the pod the scan has to be quick, because if it wasn't the brain would be too damaged - from either the exposure or the neurotoxin. While it's possible that the destructiveness is intrinsic to the scanning process at any speed, I think it is also plausible that it is a symptom of the requirements of the particular function that the burner plays in a pod. I don't see anything that suggests that they can't do a scan that is non-destructive and more than sufficient in a laboratory setting with a larger amount of time.

Basically, like I said, I find the whole thing 'grey' enough that I feel comfortable playing it with soft-clones being possible until there is more PF one way or another.

Well, again, I return to this quote from the Scientific Article on neural scanning.

"In early tests, the subjects were left with permanent and severe brain damage after being scanned, a fact that is impossible to escape. But as the person is about to die in any case, this unfortunate side effect has little consequences."

That seems fairly explicit. They used neural scannings in pods about to blow up because scanning the brain always kills it, not as a byproduct of being in a pod.   

And yes, cloning is very expensive.  But so are a hundred other things that capsuleers purchase and sell on a daily basis, that never make it to our ISK journals.  (i.e. security, homes, Interbus, crews, our cool wardrobes, etc)  If we can purchase all of that without so much as a dent, I suppose we could afford the cost of a new clone every time we jump.

[Silver Night]

My point was that the tests might have been with the 'fast' scanner. It may be that the fast scan always causes the damage, but that isn't relevant when talking about use in the pod, where the main thing is just that it is fast.

I think that that would, then, not preclude a slower, non-destructive method.

Anyway, I don't think this is a difference of opinion that is likely to be resolved without new PF from CCP.

[Horatius Caul]

Actually, I think this is an assumption, one that I dont think the text supports.  Its not explicit that we jump back into the same clone, just that we jump back into the same location.

...

The only handwaving in this explanation is that your implants are removed from the dead clone, and placed into the pre-living clone, which isn't unreasonable given that you need to have access to jump clone medical facilities of a station or supercap to make a clone jump.

...

"Pier Ancru slowly came to, relishing in the feeling of energy returning to his previously limp body. He flexed a few of his muscles, they felt familiar, yet he knew this was the first time they were under his direct control. "

Emphasis mine.  Basically, the main character is clone jumping back home, but he's jumping back into a new clone, one hes never directly controlled before.  And if he's jumping back to his home, why isn't he jumping back into his prior clone?  The straight line answer is that its brain is fried, because neural scan seems to always kill the brain.

1. The assumption that the cloning company can extract brain implants and put them into a fresh body does clearly not gel with the fact that the act of removing a brain implant seems to destroy it, or at least render it useless. Beyond the hard/soft scanner debate, there is nothing suggesting that the body we jump back to isn't the same body that we jumped away from. If they are kept in clone vats in the meantime, it's because that's a tried and proven method for keeping unconscious bodies alive and healthy.

2. Is it not possible that Mr. Ancru started his clone jumping tour from a location that wasn't his home? I know I've flown around setting up clones in places I frequent so that I can jump to them whenever I want - so it's perfectly reasonable that Mr. Ancru had a fresh clone installed in his home system (and in Sizamod, and wherever else he thought he might like to go), then went somewhere else, and started his clone jumping circuit from outside his home system. That would be why he has now clone jumped back home, into a fresh body.

[Yoshito Sanders]

Also keep in mind that the scientific article on cloning is one of the first background pieces of EVE fiction written. It is older than jump clones, so that article is no longer completely "up to date" on the technology of cloning.

Theodicy features a Jovian who dies outside of a pod and then returns later. He has no memories of when he died, so clearly the clone was made beforehand. Yes, the Jove have more advanced tech than the rest of the cluster, but Theodicy takes place about 200 years before the current game time. So to believe there have been no advances in clone tech since then among the general populace is silly.

Secondly, there's an EON story where a Gallente movie director's clone is activated by his neglected wife to take his place. Since the director had been cloned before, there's no way to verify which is the "real" one, so he's taken away by CONCORD as a "rogue clone" or something of the sort. True, EON exists in a PF gray area (as some stuff that has come out of EON [such as Orphyx] clearly is canon, but others probably isn't), but it's worth noting.

In the Empyrean Age, when Otro Gariushi is talking to his sister right before the mothership impacts, he says something along the lines of "all my clones are in this station" after his sister says he can just be cloned. If he would be unable to clone outside the pod, such a statement would be wholly unnecessary.

The reason the capsuleer might be worried at the end of the Burning Age can easily be explained. He's not worried he's going to be killed. He's worried that he'll be killed and no one will know to activate the clone. It's pretty established that CONCORD takes a dim view on having two clones of a person walking around, so it's unlikely the clone station will go "Ok, he's been missing for a few days, fire that bitch up." They'll likely just sit on the clone until their contract expires, then dump it, unless they get proof he's dead.

As for DUST, it's likely that the new cloning tech will be cheap cloning that can explain why the soldiers are constantly cloned instead of just grabbing one of the huddled masses, handing him a gun, and telling him to go. And that instant mind scans can be taken outside of the pod, though from what CCP has hinted at, it'll be less of a "full" scan that the capsuleers have access to and something more quick and dirty; preserving the skills but letting things like memories and personalty lapse a bit.

[Silver Night]

I really should get myself the back issues of EON.

There was also the Jovian guy that was in the teleporter accident, and they reassembled him from tens of thousands of tiny pieces sprayed across the entire cluster.

Those wacky Jovians.

[Seriphyn]

Yeah, Otro Garuishi is one...and from Slow Disease...

"No. At least, not technically. Look, with the kind of resources you have at your disposal, there's no reason you couldn't live a full, natural lifespan. This never has to reach stage four. But — and this is a large 'but' — the deposits that have already developed interfere with brain mapping. They corrupt the results in unpredictable ways."

"I can never clone?"

"If you were to ever attempt to clone, there's a strong probability of permanent and irreversible neural damage. The worst-case scenario, and not an unlikely one, is that your new body would just never wake up."

What is Heth referring to here?