Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Senn Typhos]

In full agreement, both with the post, and request for a topic split. I would love to see if anyone can successfully combine existing evidence with interpretation, improbable as that is.

[Ammentio Oinkelmar]

The Intaki culture, and Intaki itself, is on par with the "slavery vs. religion" ball of wax. So far, players can't even reasonably agree on the state of the planet. Last thing we need is to add religion to that mess.

I agree.

Even as an Intaki RPer the relentless cycle of the same arguement can become frustrating, and for me it's partly due to trying to stay on topic. It sometimes feels like a post about a particular thing/event/group that happens to mention "Intaki" will spark off the whole Federation/Intaki relationship debate even if that isn't what's being talked about by the OP. (Take this very thread as a good example )

For example. I'm going to assume that this topic is what prompted this. I could be wrong and it might be nothing more than coincidence, but the responses from some in the first topic appear to bleed straight into the content and responses of the second.

Well I think there is already enough known about the Intaki religion to role-play it. The main reason why this hasn't been done seems to be that the player community takes it very seriously, is not comfortable with the way things are and are waiting for more PF to rectify the issues. A PF dump would take away our freedom to do plausibility experiments, trash a lot of RP that has been done, and it might be that for these reasons it will never happen. I think it all goes back to Ken's OP about RP styles.

And what's the effect of this on good RP? Well because of never seeming to make any progress or reach any consensus on any part of the issue... or being able to explore different aspects of the Intaki debate (I wouldn't call it an obsession myself  ) like the relationship and interaction with the Syndicate or Mordu's Legion, I ended up avoiding the same old stagnant arguement that would have been all but innevitable and decided not to respond at all.

And so my frustration moved from the problem of going around in circles to the problem of not RPing the issue at all. That's bad for me as a player and for Seri who clearly put a lot of work into his address to the students of UC and hasnt seen much response to his post.

Some players just enjoy doing endless fighting, name-calling and emorage on non-issues. The analytical scagga-style approach to solve the Intaki/slavery problems sounds hilarious and would definitely be worth trying. The topic of the discussion is actually quite irrelevant - the fun can be for instance in giving depth to your character, twisting and misinterpreting the words of the opponents or in finding new contexts and angles to the old issues.

Anyhow, I agree with Senn that when people get clearly OOC serious with what they are arguing about, it might be a good time to try something else. If you have lost your interest in repeating the same arguments in the Intaki related discussions, maybe you could take a short break from your duties as ILF's diplomat, let some newbie enjoy the fun and return when it all looks attractive to you again?

Unless ofc. they make a cronicle some day about the Intaki's themselves, from the state of the homeworld (political, social, economical, military, ideological etc.) to the religious beliefs and how the Reborn process works - heck, they gave us PF pieces on how cloning works, and the Reborn idea is supposed to have been helpe a long way with cloning, actually making a somewhat blurred idea more physically gripable and plausable to most citizens to understand. If it also offered some idea as to what exactly the Mordu Intaki and the Syndicate Intaki think of things and/or the homeworld and Fed in general, I think this would help alot. There would still be more than enough empty space to fill by players (or for toons to get inspired/helped by info on 'their' take on things) so I don't think it would ruin alot of RP or anything, at worst some players would have to curve thier RP histories/ideas around some 'facts' or jsut ignore the new info all together, if they want.

This is the problem really, for all sides and new CCP canon and lore, or expansion of current known facts is the only thing that can resolve some of the issues.

It looks like this particular conversation has shifted somewhat from The Roden Administration and has shifted to Intaki. Perhaps it's worth a topic split?

I'd love to explore Intaki properly OOC to include the Federation, State, Syndicate and Mordu's legion as well as some of the interesting points raised regarding Intaki criminality, etc. but this shouldn't deny Roden his own topic as was intended by the OP.

Well it was argued that Syndicate/Intakis might be the puppet masters behind Roden. It should be relevant to this thread as well.

[Bataav]

Well I think there is already enough known about the Intaki religion to role-play it. The main reason why this hasn't been done seems to be that the player community takes it very seriously, is not comfortable with the way things are and are waiting for more PF to rectify the issues. A PF dump would take away our freedom to do plausibility experiments, trash a lot of RP that has been done, and it might be that for these reasons it will never happen. I think it all goes back to Ken's OP about RP styles.

Some players just enjoy doing endless fighting, name-calling and emorage on non-issues. The analytical scagga-style approach to solve the Intaki/slavery problems sounds hilarious and would definitely be worth trying. The topic of the discussion is actually quite irrelevant - the fun can be for instance in giving depth to your character, twisting and misinterpreting the words of the opponents or in finding new contexts and angles to the old issues.

Anyhow, I agree with Senn that when people get clearly OOC serious with what they are arguing about, it might be a good time to try something else. If you have lost your interest in repeating the same arguments in the Intaki related discussions, maybe you could take a short break from your duties as ILF's diplomat, let some newbie enjoy the fun and return when it all looks attractive to you again?

I agree. I'm definately one of those RPers who's become extremely attached to the Intaki and the particular cause of the secessionist movement. I'm definately not at a place where I feel the need to step back a little though. The ILF's cause is an emotive one to those involved and I'm not sure the arguing in public is something that should be restricted to those with a diplomat badge.

Spending some extra time thinking about the potential frustrations of returning to the same material over and over I've actually come to the decision that actually there is some content in Seri's thread that can be responded to. I'm not sure a direct reply to that threat is how I'd want to do it though. I'll think about how to best put a counter arguement accross that can hopefully avoid some of the more obvious responses. While there's no doubting Seri's knowledge of Federation canon there's a fair bit of stuff in his post that suggests Seriphyn (the character) misunderstands the Intaki he's arguing against and that I think is a route for progression.

Well it was argued that Syndicate/Intakis might be the puppet masters behind Roden. It should be relevant to this thread as well.

True and while that particular point should be looked at  here, I think that the Intaki deserve a general overarching topic of their own where the various interweaving relationships with their various neighbours is explored and some of the points made and being discussed here seem a great starting point.

[Senn Typhos]

What's started to give me grief in the Intaki RP sphere is how frustrating it's become. It doesn't seem to matter how much effort someone puts into altering the environment, either for the militias, for the nations, for individual groups, what have you. The situation remains a consistent, disappointing malaise of inactivity.

I'm really not sure what to blame this on. The obvious problem is the facwar system, but I think we've all bitched about that enough for the time being. The second is what we're discussing here, players simply refusing to acknowledge or offer credence for RP that negates or opposes theirs. Again, not sure what to attribute this to.

The nature of the Intaki-based RP sphere is fascinating, because it forces so many facets of the Federation and State into play at once, literally everyone could potentially have a stake in Intaki's future. But for all the work put into it, nothing seems to happen. I can't speak for the ILF's efforts in the past, but from what I've heard, there was a time when Intaki could be influenced by player actions.

Just in this thread we've already seen how complex Intaki RP can get. Not to mention, it incorporates Placid and Syndicate, just by being a connecting pin in that part of the cluster, so to speak. It's just a shame that too few parties are willing to put their backs into it.

[Atormeleon]

four paragraphs of quoted text

I'm in full agreement. I feel that this state of affairs could be at least partially caused by overreliance on one charismatic player. When playing a secessionist, I got frustrated on the lack of consequential RP and tried to come up with initiatives. It turned out that the community would have preferred the ideas to be "officially" approved - and due to hierarchy and various issues this was impossible. Eventually I moved on.

[Senn Typhos]

Well, that's one more layer to the aforementioned ball-o'-wax. Players are still debating what counts as an "official" source. Right back to the Intaki issue, there's always the schism of those who only work with quoted CCP source, and those who try to seek player interpretation. But I digress.

I know I'm being painfully pessimistic, but it does degrade one's motivation after a while. >>

[GoGo Yubari]

What's started to give me grief in the Intaki RP sphere is how frustrating it's become. It doesn't seem to matter how much effort someone puts into altering the environment, either for the militias, for the nations, for individual groups, what have you. The situation remains a consistent, disappointing malaise of inactivity.

I'm really not sure what to blame this on. The obvious problem is the facwar system, but I think we've all bitched about that enough for the time being. The second is what we're discussing here, players simply refusing to acknowledge or offer credence for RP that negates or opposes theirs. Again, not sure what to attribute this to.

The nature of the Intaki-based RP sphere is fascinating, because it forces so many facets of the Federation and State into play at once, literally everyone could potentially have a stake in Intaki's future. But for all the work put into it, nothing seems to happen. I can't speak for the ILF's efforts in the past, but from what I've heard, there was a time when Intaki could be influenced by player actions.

Just in this thread we've already seen how complex Intaki RP can get. Not to mention, it incorporates Placid and Syndicate, just by being a connecting pin in that part of the cluster, so to speak. It's just a shame that too few parties are willing to put their backs into it.

All in all, I'm still optimistic about the entire situation because what we have today is so incredibly much more than what was happening in Intaki circles back when I started role-playing in Eve. Lots more opportunities for all stakeholders than in the old days.

But personally I'm tired of putting up ideas and facing dismissive responses which ICly say "blahblahblhblah", but the OOC and true meaning behind the words is clear: an emotionally charged "you are doing it wrong".  [bittervet] I've fought that fight too many times now. [/bittervet]

That's why it would be important for CCP to comment on some key issues.

Then again, sometimes it seems to me that nothing from CCP would be enough so I'm not sure if there is anything that they could say which would actually change anything substantially.

In the distant past there was literally almost nothing overt in the PF about any of this and CCP have already openly incorporated it countless times, step by step bringing in things and going with the motions of the RP community. It may not always look like that for the newer movers'n'shakers, but for someone who watched the scene unfold from the very beginning it looks pretty optimistic in that regard. But despite this the bitching continues, apparently without any ability from certain parties to read between the lines.

The fact is that there will always be a line between [what is known] and [what is not known] in the PF and motivated players will always go beyond [what is known] into the untapped frontier of unexplored ideas. For every such exploration, there will be opposition. For my own speculations and ventures into that turf, I've tried to cleave pretty close to what has been established, using universal themes and logical patterns to develop things further. Intaki yoga is probably the most unsupported thing I've ever come up with.

I don't mind the IC opposition - in fact, why pioneer a separatist movement in a static game if one doesn't actually welcome the opposition? It is the barely veiled OOC spite which turns me off when faced with it time and time again.

[GoGo Yubari]

Example time and sorry to put Andreus on the spot here... reference.

This is a gross and unacceptable misrepresentation of the situation and an insult to both the Federation and the Intaki people who remain proud members of it. Not every Intaki, nor even a majority, remained with the Federation out of fear. The vast majority of Intaki - then and now - remain with the Federation because of our unity of purpose with the Federation.

This is a post to which someone could reply in this fashion: "No. You are wrong."

That would be some great role-play, but the fault wouldn't be entirely on the respondent's conscience. Andreus kinda forces the situation into that. Very productive indeed and "no u wrong" pretty much sums up a lot of the RP that surrounds the topic.

Now, luckily Andreus also continues with this:

Attempting to imply otherwise casts shame on the Intaki as much as the Federation, and you should be ashamed to give voice to it.

Because this is something you can actually role-play around, instead of just playing "yes"-"no "yes"-"no" games until your brain hurts, but the thrust of the point still stands in aggravation. As presented in the thread, the crux of the argument and the RP around it is an OOC argument about how things really stand in the PF.

[Senn Typhos]

But personally I'm tired of putting up ideas and facing dismissive responses which ICly say "blahblahblhblah", but the OOC and true meaning behind the words is clear: an emotionally charged "you are doing it wrong".  [bittervet] I've fought that fight too many times now. [/bittervet]

This. Gott in Himmel, this.

We've had a billion threads on this forum about why the IC/OOC barrier needs to be preserved. Seems like a waste of time, now. >>

[Seriphyn]

The issue with Intaki is that...you've got people that have put years into forming a strong and influential RP base, and suddenly when CCP release PF five years on that suggest "The Intaki are heavily influential members of the Federation, and that the permutations have worked both ways" or whatever it may be, you've suddenly got those same people who have worked so hard going "Oh, right"

[Ammentio Oinkelmar]

The issue with Intaki is that...you've got people that have put years into forming a strong and influential RP base, and suddenly when CCP release PF five years on that suggest "The Intaki are heavily influential members of the Federation, and that the permutations have worked both ways" or whatever it may be, you've suddenly got those same people who have worked so hard going "Oh, right"

I find it hard to believe that the separatists would not have been aware of the Syndicate, Euphoric Gaze, Mordu's Legion and whatever. I believe they have deliberately chosen to stay away from the shady aspects and focus on police work, trading, charity and other nice things.

Now there are Minmatar evangelicals, Amarr abolitionists, Caldari anarchists and so on, so I don't see why there could not be some SOE style Intakis as well. That's all good, contradicting the stereotype is often interesting.

But if CCP now released more PF indicating that Intakis are actually characterized by what ILF has been doing, their originality would go away, there would be a discontinuity with the original specs and in my opinion that's when people really should be surprised.

[Seriphyn]

I don't think the Intaki are characterized by their connections to Syndicate or as black marketeers. In the Federation they would be known for their artistry and diplomatic skill. But the black market side would certainly be seen as the "dark side" to Intaki, the same way civil conflict would be the dark side of the Jin-Mei, and extreme decadence for dark side of the Gallente.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Example time and sorry to put Andreus on the spot here... reference.

This is a gross and unacceptable misrepresentation of the situation and an insult to both the Federation and the Intaki people who remain proud members of it. Not every Intaki, nor even a majority, remained with the Federation out of fear. The vast majority of Intaki - then and now - remain with the Federation because of our unity of purpose with the Federation.

This is a post to which someone could reply in this fashion: "No. You are wrong."

That would be some great role-play, but the fault wouldn't be entirely on the respondent's conscience. Andreus kinda forces the situation into that. Very productive indeed and "no u wrong" pretty much sums up a lot of the RP that surrounds the topic.

Now, luckily Andreus also continues with this:

Attempting to imply otherwise casts shame on the Intaki as much as the Federation, and you should be ashamed to give voice to it.

Because this is something you can actually role-play around, instead of just playing "yes"-"no "yes"-"no" games until your brain hurts, but the thrust of the point still stands in aggravation. As presented in the thread, the crux of the argument and the RP around it is an OOC argument about how things really stand in the PF.

You know that goes both ways, right? I think its cool that there's such a strong following for a player-constructed separatist movement for the Intaki, but making stuff up to lord it over others isn't much better than people quoting CCP canon as scripture.

That said, I do agree with your overall message. Trying to stamp out unique concepts in such a manner feels like overt 'urdoingitwrong', but when secessionists make broad sweeping claims on behalf of an entire planet, it's an easy reply to say, 'hey trillions of intaki enjoy the fruits of federation freedom, what makes you think they like your ideas?' and something that secessionists have to back up their message with. But this is all soft fluff anyway. The point isn't to WIN the argument or be RIGHT according to CCP, it's to validate your actions in-game and stay immersed/entertained, right?