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[Senn Typhos]

I'm pretty sure the opinion of one individual out of several trillion does not account for the entire domestic policy in the Federation, seeing that the Intaki control said domestic policy.

That aside, I interpreted it as racism from the FIO towards the Intaki, as they would be prejudiced to be the largest security risk.

Really didn't suggest that it did, but, there ya go.

Of course, this is also from the mouth of a former president, a two-term politician from the Intaki bloodline, and a man responsible for immense economic growth. So while he is just one voice, I imagine he knows more about the subject than the average person. It's much in the same vein as calling a PhD historian "just one opinion" on history.

I also accept that no matter how much evidence can be submitted, neither side of the "how's Intaki doing these days" debate will ever agree on anything. Such is the nature of EVE RPers.

[GoGo Yubari]

I think the dissenting RPer opinion and PF touches giving credence to both views, suggests a composite view of the situation. I'm thinking there is actually a pretty large divide between the haves and have-nots in the Intaki demographic. Those more willing to accept the Federation for all it offers, and controversially to allow their Intaki-ness to take a slight backburner in the face Gallente customs, are the haves with - stereotypically - cushy jobs in the Federal bureaucracy.

The have-nots cling to Intaki culture as a point of pride, maybe because it's all they have*, perhaps unfairly saying that the Federation is the cause of their problems, while at the same throwing their lot with the criminal elements of the cluster.

The well to do folks look down upon the less well off because to them it seems they are causing their own problems, instead of just getting on with the program and embracing all the Federation is offering. Meanwhile, they themselves are accused from down below as being sell-outs**.

There is certainly room for both kinds - really all kinds - in the setting. It's conflicted stuff where it's difficult to objectively say who's right and who's wrong, ie. precisely the type of stuff that makes for compelling role-playing fodder and drama. It's when stuff doesn't make just cut-and-dried sense when the best dramatic material appears.

* Also, Intaki spirituality is likely to be opposed to materialistic pursuits bringing true happiness and while the common population is probably not deeply engaged in such practises, stuff will filter down from these respected people to form the crust of the culture. Perhaps paradoxically, at least from the other point of view, the same people are advocating drugs as a way of incresing the happiness of the population.

** Consider two examples of such "sell-outs": someone teaching a simplified system of Intaki yoga as simple physical exercise and the Intaki toiling in the Federal bureaucracy. Both see themselves working with their culture within the larger Gallente Federation framework, but the hard-core traditionalists and embittered poor folk alike look at what they are doing as a cultural "evil". That condemnation is likely to be considered primitive and simplistic by their own demographic peers.

[Seriphyn]

The "all intaki are syndicate" was said only by the Black Eagle mission agent, not foiritain

[Rok-Yuni]

well if TEA is to be believed, and the federation is, by far, the strongest economy in new eden, that makes roden capable of throwing the most isk around to accomplish his goals.

in new eden isk is everything, so that would make him, by far, the most powerful person in new eden.

considering the capital required to turn a barren or lava world into a temperate one, even the broker would be hard pressed to command such power.

[Ammentio Oinkelmar]

I think the dissenting RPer opinion and PF touches giving credence to both views, suggests a composite view of the situation. I'm thinking there is actually a pretty large divide between the haves and have-nots in the Intaki demographic. Those more willing to accept the Federation for all it offers, and controversially to allow their Intaki-ness to take a slight backburner in the face Gallente customs, are the haves with - stereotypically - cushy jobs in the Federal bureaucracy.

The have-nots cling to Intaki culture as a point of pride, maybe because it's all they have*, perhaps unfairly saying that the Federation is the cause of their problems, while at the same throwing their lot with the criminal elements of the cluster.

The well to do folks look down upon the less well off because to them it seems they are causing their own problems, instead of just getting on with the program and embracing all the Federation is offering. Meanwhile, they themselves are accused from down below as being sell-outs**.

There is certainly room for both kinds - really all kinds - in the setting. It's conflicted stuff where it's difficult to objectively say who's right and who's wrong, ie. precisely the type of stuff that makes for compelling role-playing fodder and drama. It's when stuff doesn't make just cut-and-dried sense when the best dramatic material appears.

I see Intakis as some kind of mafia or triads inside the Federation - Mourmarie's quote could mean that many of them have a relative or an acquaintance in the "family", like the italian immigrants in the Godfather movies.  The hard-to-reach, low-sec location of their wealthy home system speaks volumes, and the strong "negotiation skills" of their representatives could also be a mafia reference.

In my view Syndicate is the reason why Administration, Customs and the most important Federal bureaus are led by Intakis, and not so much that those individuals would have adopted the Gallentean culture.

Like Seriphyn says, in a large population almost any kind of group can exist, but for me the general picture that PF paints of Intakis seems to have a grey lining.

Also, Intaki spirituality is likely to be opposed to materialistic pursuits bringing true happiness and while the common population is probably not deeply engaged in such practises, stuff will filter down from these respected people to form the crust of the culture. Perhaps paradoxically, at least from the other point of view, the same people are advocating drugs as a way of incresing the happiness of the population.

You could also say that Intaki religion is a drug cult led by charismatic immortals, who maintain their youth by taking small babies, emptying their brains and letting dead, old persons occupy the bodies. In some sense the religious Intakis are more badass than the religious blooders.

** Consider two examples of such "sell-outs": someone teaching a simplified system of Intaki yoga as simple physical exercise and the Intaki toiling in the Federal bureaucracy. Both see themselves working with their culture within the larger Gallente Federation framework, but the hard-core traditionalists and embittered poor folk alike look at what they are doing as a cultural "evil". That condemnation is likely to be considered primitive and simplistic by their own demographic peers.

This sounds plausible. The Verge Vendor famine, "FN turned back at the Intaki gate" -newspiece, and Vremaja Idama's conversion to separatism could be seen as evidence for a division between modernists and traditionalists. Any links/references you might have on the hard-liners or yoga would be highly appreciated.

[Senn Typhos]

Hm. See now I have to consider how much I would trust the Spooky Space CIA's interpretation of Intaki...

[Chowda]

well if TEA is to be believed

Every time I think about TEA, I hope I suddenly wake up next to Bob Newhart and Bobby Ewing is in my shower.

[GoGo Yubari]

I see Intakis as some kind of mafia or triads inside the Federation - Mourmarie's quote could mean that many of them have a relative or an acquaintance in the "family", like the italian immigrants in the Godfather movies.  The hard-to-reach, low-sec location of their wealthy home system speaks volumes, and the strong "negotiation skills" of their representatives could also be a mafia reference.

In my view Syndicate is the reason why Administration, Customs and the most important Federal bureaus are led by Intakis, and not so much that those individuals would have adopted the Gallentean culture.

Yeah, I like that view as well and don't really think it is exclusive with what I was outlining. While I said Intaki society is split in two, it doesn't have to be such a clear cut between the two. So, even the good Federal administator Intaki will have cousins who aren't, and who may be less well off, and most importantly, will have contacts in criminal/Syndicate circles who may actually help him every now and then (in return for similar favors). So, yeah, more of a sliding scale.

Also, Intaki spirituality is likely to be opposed to materialistic pursuits bringing true happiness and while the common population is probably not deeply engaged in such practises, stuff will filter down from these respected people to form the crust of the culture. Perhaps paradoxically, at least from the other point of view, the same people are advocating drugs as a way of incresing the happiness of the population.

You could also say that Intaki religion is a drug cult led by charismatic immortals, who maintain their youth by taking small babies, emptying their brains and letting dead, old persons occupy the bodies. In some sense the religious Intakis are more badass than the religious blooders.

Yeah, not such a nice way to look at it, indeed. Of course, it would be nice to get more info on the Reborn process, too. Then again, that goes for most things in Eve...

Any links/references you might have on the hard-liners or yoga would be highly appreciated.

No links available, those are purely examples of my own creation. I've used the Intaki yoga teacher a bit in RP and in the past as a sort of mildly funny example which still could illustrate the problematic issues. As for the traditionalists, I don't really think guessing that there are indeed hardcore traditionalists somewhere in the Intaki sphere to be such a stretch.

[Ammentio Oinkelmar]

Yeah, not such a nice way to look at it, indeed. Of course, it would be nice to get more info on the Reborn process, too. Then again, that goes for most things in Eve...

The Reborn process sounds like a juicy chronicle topic. It's curious why no one has taken up the challenge.

No links available, those are purely examples of my own creation. I've used the Intaki yoga teacher a bit in RP and in the past as a sort of mildly funny example which still could illustrate the problematic issues. As for the traditionalists, I don't really think guessing that there are indeed hardcore traditionalists somewhere in the Intaki sphere to be such a stretch.

Yeah, if real-life examples are anything to compare with, all that should be there.

[Senn Typhos]

Yeah, not such a nice way to look at it, indeed. Of course, it would be nice to get more info on the Reborn process, too. Then again, that goes for most things in Eve...

The Reborn process sounds like a juicy chronicle topic. It's curious why no one has taken up the challenge.

Because no one wants to start an argument about religious beliefs, because it's always a waste of time.

[Ammentio Oinkelmar]

Because no one wants to start an argument about religious beliefs, because it's always a waste of time.

Well to an extent, abhorrent rituals and cult apologism have high entertainment value. Intaki's take on the theme just seems to be missing from the series.

[GoGo Yubari]

Because no one wants to start an argument about religious beliefs, because it's always a waste of time.

Well to an extent, abhorrent rituals and cult apologism have high entertainment value. Intaki's take on the theme just seems to be missing from the series.

One of the themes around which most player interest and role-play in Eve has coalesced around is slavery tied to religious beliefs. Seems fertile ground for juicy stuff! I think the theme of Intaki-culture-within-the-Federation is potential a very good one for roleplayers in the Gallente sphere, from separatists to Federalists and liberals to conservatives, alike. Hell, it is there simmering already, but just a little bit more meat around the bones from CCP might help.

[Senn Typhos]

Because no one wants to start an argument about religious beliefs, because it's always a waste of time.

Well to an extent, abhorrent rituals and cult apologism have high entertainment value. Intaki's take on the theme just seems to be missing from the series.

One of the themes around which most player interest and role-play in Eve has coalesced around is slavery tied to religious beliefs. Seems fertile ground for juicy stuff! I think the theme of Intaki-culture-within-the-Federation is potential a very good one for roleplayers in the Gallente sphere, from separatists to Federalists and liberals to conservatives, alike. Hell, it is there simmering already, but just a little bit more meat around the bones from CCP might help.

It might be due to the level of cynicism I've developed, but I have to disagree. So far, the only interaction I've seen stem from the discourse regarding slavery and the religious issues tied to it has consisted of reactionary sophistry at best. One side says something - sometimes entirely unrelated to slavery - and the other side makes a snide comment about how [x quality] the other side is, and that leads to twenty pages of namecalling and repetitive arguments.

And it gets old. Real fast.

The problem is that regardless of whether or not it's religiously based, people who are too entrenched in a certain belief or opinion are generally unwilling to reach a stasis issue with anyone else. If they get beyond a reasonable level of faith in their own opinion, then discussion is impossible, and no amount of evidence or logical debate will convince them otherwise. Religion just happens to be the worst of these beliefs, purely in terms of being the one most likely to cause a rejection of stasis issues.

The Intaki culture, and Intaki itself, is on par with the "slavery vs. religion" ball of wax. So far, players can't even reasonably agree on the state of the planet. Last thing we need is to add religion to that mess.

[BloodBird]

Unless ofc. they make a cronicle some day about the Intaki's themselves, from the state of the homeworld (political, social, economical, military, ideological etc.) to the religious beliefs and how the Reborn process works - heck, they gave us PF pieces on how cloning works, and the Reborn idea is supposed to have been helpe a long way with cloning, actually making a somewhat blurred idea more physically gripable and plausable to most citizens to understand. If it also offered some idea as to what exactly the Mordu Intaki and the Syndicate Intaki think of things and/or the homeworld and Fed in general, I think this would help alot. There would still be more than enough empty space to fill by players (or for toons to get inspired/helped by info on 'their' take on things) so I don't think it would ruin alot of RP or anything, at worst some players would have to curve thier RP histories/ideas around some 'facts' or jsut ignore the new info all together, if they want.

[Bataav]

The Intaki culture, and Intaki itself, is on par with the "slavery vs. religion" ball of wax. So far, players can't even reasonably agree on the state of the planet. Last thing we need is to add religion to that mess.

I agree.

Even as an Intaki RPer the relentless cycle of the same arguement can become frustrating, and for me it's partly due to trying to stay on topic. It sometimes feels like a post about a particular thing/event/group that happens to mention "Intaki" will spark off the whole Federation/Intaki relationship debate even if that isn't what's being talked about by the OP. (Take this very thread as a good example )

For example. I'm going to assume that this topic is what prompted this. I could be wrong and it might be nothing more than coincidence, but the responses from some in the first topic appear to bleed straight into the content and responses of the second.

And what's the effect of this on good RP? Well because of never seeming to make any progress or reach any consensus on any part of the issue... or being able to explore different aspects of the Intaki debate (I wouldn't call it an obsession myself  ) like the relationship and interaction with the Syndicate or Mordu's Legion, I ended up avoiding the same old stagnant arguement that would have been all but innevitable and decided not to respond at all.

And so my frustration moved from the problem of going around in circles to the problem of not RPing the issue at all. That's bad for me as a player and for Seri who clearly put a lot of work into his address to the students of UC and hasnt seen much response to his post.

Unless ofc. they make a cronicle some day about the Intaki's themselves, from the state of the homeworld (political, social, economical, military, ideological etc.) to the religious beliefs and how the Reborn process works - heck, they gave us PF pieces on how cloning works, and the Reborn idea is supposed to have been helpe a long way with cloning, actually making a somewhat blurred idea more physically gripable and plausable to most citizens to understand. If it also offered some idea as to what exactly the Mordu Intaki and the Syndicate Intaki think of things and/or the homeworld and Fed in general, I think this would help alot. There would still be more than enough empty space to fill by players (or for toons to get inspired/helped by info on 'their' take on things) so I don't think it would ruin alot of RP or anything, at worst some players would have to curve thier RP histories/ideas around some 'facts' or jsut ignore the new info all together, if they want.

This is the problem really, for all sides and new CCP canon and lore, or expansion of current known facts is the only thing that can resolve some of the issues.

It looks like this particular conversation has shifted somewhat from The Roden Administration and has shifted to Intaki. Perhaps it's worth a topic split?

I'd love to explore Intaki properly OOC to include the Federation, State, Syndicate and Mordu's legion as well as some of the interesting points raised regarding Intaki criminality, etc. but this shouldn't deny Roden his own topic as was intended by the OP.