Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 01 Feb 2011, 11:47
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So, the Federation "relies heavily on drones and other automated systems", and then there is the piece of PF from Temperate processors
Populated almost entire by robotic laborers, mass production facilities excel at creating products in bulk with minimal supervision and maintenance. They can be so self-sufficient that rumors abound of Gallente factories operated entirely by androids and governed by a skeleton crew of drones. (Detractors of this method like to note that Sansha facilities work in much the same fashion.) Either way, the results are irrefutable: Raw materials and components go in one end, and polished commodities come out the other side
Now, I think we associate the word "drones" with spacebound things akin to what we see in-game. "Frontline defences" in the Federation prior to the outbreak of new conflict was also composed of drones when compared to soldiers, so perhaps it might be something akin to...
[spoiler](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/masseffect/images/0/08/Mass-effect-2-20090617000150116.jpg)[/spoiler]
(on an unrelated note, EVE certainly needs more 'visualizations')
What do people think? You might have spotted tidbits of PF that I haven't...and curious to know what "other automated systems" might entail.
Federation military possibly having a droid army contingent is interesting though.
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The thing to be kept in mind, is that automated systems aren't trusted in Eve Online. We have some extremely prominent examples in this universe, of what happens when you try to imbue machines with life.
Now, I'm not going to call it canon, because this came from *my own* stories (Eighth Plague, Fuel,) and even though E-ON published them, I'm still the guy who applied the concept to Eve...
But the Amarr have laws against techno-heresy. Essentially, "traipsing upon God's domain in creating life." Because creating a sentient technological construct can NOT be called anything else. It is life. It wants to preserve itself, it wants to ensure the continuation of its kind. That's a living creature.
Now, if the Amarr have laws against that sort of thing, then it stands to reason that other empires might have something similar. Perhaps, not so rooted in theology, but the aim is still the same: If you develop machines that can think better than humans, eventually they will out-think their creator, and start pursuing their own goals.
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Advanced autonomous battledrones? I don't know, potential for catastrophic backfiring aside, I wouldn't exclude it from the Gallentean pursuit of drone technology. Lets say improbable.
Dumbass factory bots with inherent lack of expansive intelligence? Pioneers of the technology after all. I guess what it comes down to is, how far up the scale of "intelligence" is too risky to put to use?
All the way up to "assistant" androids, I wouldn't call out of the question, since we already know AIMEDs exist on stations. Maybe there are commercially available androids of similar varieties, with the capacity to act as a secretary of sorts.
As far as the limit on military application of drone technology, well...
http://military.discovery.com/videos/ultimate-weapons-robotic-warrior-the-mule.html
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I've always claimed that Shin's ships are crewed by robots, and "temperate processors" finally gives me a leg to stand on, here. I can see there being restrictions on robots similar to the restrictions on AI in Dune, but Shin's not particularly law-abiding, so...
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I hate to post so swiftly after already making a point, but, there's also the potential applications for advanced roles in society. Tellers, ushers, etc. Another thought; seeing-eye drones? vOv
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Oh, I wasn't necessarily referring to the Federation in the OP, btw, but the other factions too. The Minmatar might use it the least since they don't have access to "high tech" stuff and prefer mechanical or some such...I think...?
As for battle androids, it wouldn't be too farfetched, if they're programmed like space combat drones. "Go here" "attack that" "take cover here" etc.
Abraxas appears the most creative of the lot, and he actually made the Gallente sound like an original sci-fi creation in the Burning Life. While Minmatar are space punks, Caldari militarists, and Amarr theocrats, perhaps the Gallente will be utopianists, with "automated systems" going down as far as city's sanitary systems, law enforcement, etc. We'll See™ with this "Immersionist" project.
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I've always claimed that Shin's ships are crewed by robots, and "temperate processors" finally gives me a leg to stand on, here. I can see there being restrictions on robots similar to the restrictions on AI in Dune, but Shin's not particularly law-abiding, so...
Mmm. I don't think it's a matter of "law abiding" or otherwise in Eve. It's more of a matter of... "Yes, you can create an AI that does anything you want. But eventually it will start doing what IT wants." Even pirates or criminals wouldn't want to create one of these bastards, much less enough of them to crew a ship.
Remember: a computer thinks far faster than a human. Everything a human could possibly think of in his lifetime, a computer has factored and analyzed within the first milliseconds of its existence. It can take a human being DECADES to alter his way of thinking; a computer can make that alteration within a nanosecond, and reverse it whenever it pleases.
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I hate to post so swiftly after already making a point, but, there's also the potential applications for advanced roles in society. Tellers, ushers, etc. Another thought; seeing-eye drones? vOv
We have ocular implants in Eve's "modern-day," which the middle class could easily afford; why would we need seeing-eye drones? ;)
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My problem is, its easy to tell a drone to attack a ship. Each vessel, I imagine, carries unique signatures; heat, weapon and engine trails, comm systems, etc. Telling a drone to attack a person, well, they'd need the ability to differentiate between humans.
That being said... if AIMEDs can tell the difference between humans and diagnose their illnesses, perhaps there's a system by which organic bodies can be told apart. Again, heat signatures, facial and retinal scans, that sort of thing. However, in combat, these would be incredibly difficult to implement. Soldiers wearing any kind of combat equipment would probably lose their defining features. Friendlies could be given strobes to keep them out of harms way, but, if that were the case, I imagine combat drones would be something like shock troopers; turn on your strobe while the thing starts turning on the heat signatures that don't have one.
Still, it's EVE, so its not as if you don't have room to say the system works via technology we don't understand in the modern age. That ocular implants can process images as quickly as a human eye says something for the analytic systems in existence in the cluster.
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The Minmatar might use it the least since they don't have access to "high tech" stuff and prefer mechanical or some such...I think...?
The Minmatar are quite capable of designing, building and using high tech, TYVM. They may have logistics issues still which guide some of their choices, and different priorities about what's important, but the best of the Matari tech is still comparable with anyone elses.
Have a nice day.
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Automated factories maybe possible, not but economically viable.
At least not in a population rich empire like the Federation with an expansive lower class of cheap minmatar labour.
Same goes for the Empire, where the labour force is exactly the same, they just don't have the illusion of freedom.
Automatization comes into play when the jobs cannot be performed by human workers any more, or comes economically unsound to use a labour force that consists of people.
I would say that the diagnosis is sci-fi-itis with a heavy dose of space opera.
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There's also the fact that Podder-Owned Starbases are operated at least in part by robots.
Robots which are destroyed in the process.
I suspect when the final robot revolution comes, anybody who's run a tower will be first up against the wall.
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Or the development of EVEs world and how it works truly embraces the Dark Side when it discovers midichlorians on top of the planet buster weaponry that is abound.
All we need is stormtroopers in spiffy uniforms, no wait...
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one of the chronicles, mentions that having an ex-holder as a slave is considerably more prestigious than having an android to pour your coffee.
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Yeah, but an android is sexier...
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Bleh, androids. We've got so many people walking around with cybernetics in their heads that I can't see much of a universal call for them (yes, even in the Federation, where surely any company who designed a truly superior sex-bot would find itself slapped with a class action suit by the United Pleasure Workers' Association). Even AIMEDs bug me some, because it makes me wonder about the state of paramedic training in the cluster.
Software/Information Constructs that skirt the edge of AIs? Sure.
Robot assemblers (possibly vastly popular in the State, even if they could afford to import cheap Matari labor now), automated sentry guns, personal combat drones and multi-purpose drones used in laboratory and hazardous task work? Definitely. I can see them all being widely used.
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Some PF snippets and theories:
Gallente evelopedia entry, http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente)
Pioneers of artificial intelligence, the Federation once relied almost entirely on drone fleets to defend its beliefs and borders. But the limitations of this technology and the lack of a human element—both in terms of a military strategy, and as a means of spreading influence— eventually reached a critical point. Today, Gallentean starships are manned by some of the bravest men and women of New Eden.
From mission description of "Heart of the Rogue Drone", http://www.electusmatari.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=9516&pid=82860#pid82860 (http://www.electusmatari.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=9516&pid=82860#pid82860) (emphasis mine)
Rogue drones began innocently enough, as part of a Gallente scientist’s research into drones that could learn and operate independently. The artificial intelligence he created was in itself fairly primitive and non-threatening, but in its self-perpetuation it developed beyond the scope of the scientist’s work, and the drones began to truly think for themselves. Using the justification that the results had produced extreme and life-threatening risk to human life, CONCORD declared all research into artificial intelligence illegal unless performed in a controlled and isolated environment under the watchful eye of DED experts. Proposals for engaging in such research are vetted carefully and the scientists presenting the proposals are subject to extreme background scrutiny.
I added emphasis to a part, as I think that is one of the a crucial points that might help reconcile the existence of advanced robotics and AIs and still needing crew and factory workers to oversee the robot work. (Beyond it all being space opera technobabble handwavium of "We want the world to be this way")
Research into learning/evolving AIs was a bad idea, but leaving that field alone does not prevent significant advances in mechanical robotics, such as for example robot dexterity or robot sight. Maybe mechanical robotics are quite advanced, but robots engaging in complex tasks that cannot be preprogrammed/pre-taught are controlled on site or remotely by operators?
If there are robot soldiers in Eve (I can't remember any examples in PF right now, though), they would likely fall to that category, for example. "Join the Gallente Army! Remote control soldier robots all day!" :lol:
In contemporary world there are also many tasks in manufacturing that could in theory be automated, but it makes no sense to do so, because the automation is cumbersome (expensive, cannot be made reliable, maintenance is difficult etc) and labour is cheap. Many tasks can be difficult to automate if you can't make higher-level AIs that can learn and adjust themselves for the fear of your drones turning rogue - any robots will of necessity be bound to limited number of tasks and evironments.
Edited: Fixed the links
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The Minmatar are quite capable of designing, building and using high tech, TYVM. They may have logistics issues still which guide some of their choices, and different priorities about what's important, but the best of the Matari tech is still comparable with anyone elses.
Have a nice day.
It's pretty clear that the Republic Fleet "does not have access to the high-tech equipment of the other empires". Minmatar are ingenious in different ways. For example, while a Caldari/Gallente might hack a security terminal, a Minmatar might look at its exact physical construction instead.
Anyway, I'm not totally bought by this illegal AI things...it's a general issue with CCP releasing early PF then releasing later PF that contradicts it...
The Gallente are "pioneers of artificial intelligence". This is a recent piece of PF (though it was implied in earlier pieces), compared to the illegalization of AI study which is an older one. So what's correct? I think we'll have to wait for CCP to elaborate.
Maybe its a subconscious, emotivist thing from myself. In the "mind's eye", I just think it would be outright more interesting if Gallente society is heavily reliant on such drones, AI and automation...makes them a bloody sight more interesting.
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ProMatari Stuff™
It's pretty clear that the Republic Fleet "does not have access to the high-tech equipment of the other empires". Minmatar are ingenious in different ways. For example, while a Caldari/Gallente might hack a security terminal, a Minmatar might look at its exact physical construction instead.
Anyway, I'm not totally bought by this illegal AI things...it's a general issue with CCP releasing early PF then releasing later PF that contradicts it...
The Gallente are "pioneers of artificial intelligence". This is a recent piece of PF (though it was implied in earlier pieces), compared to the illegalization of AI study which is an older one. So what's correct? I think we'll have to wait for CCP to elaborate.
Maybe its a subconscious, emotivist thing from myself. In the "mind's eye", I just think it would be outright more interesting if Gallente society is heavily reliant on such drones, AI and automation...makes them a bloody sight more interesting.
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive Seri.
They can be the "Pioneers" of the AI industry only to have the Rogue drone incident which results in it become an illegal practice to study and develop AI's.
Also, the idea of combat robots not being able to identify specific humans could easily be rectified by say... all friendly troops using a certain ID-chip with a coding sequence that the robot 'sees' as a Friend, I mean its EVE and just about everything has tech crammed into it, so why wouldn't the Empires have ID tags and coding signals inbuilt into the suits etc to allow for instantaneous recognisation by friends... infact as much as I hate to say it, I think *cringes* TonyG used something similar in his "Ruthless" story
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It's pretty clear that the Republic Fleet "does not have access to the high-tech equipment of the other empires".
References, please?
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Anyway, I'm not totally bought by this illegal AI things...it's a general issue with CCP releasing early PF then releasing later PF that contradicts it...
The Gallente are "pioneers of artificial intelligence". This is a recent piece of PF (though it was implied in earlier pieces), compared to the illegalization of AI study which is an older one. So what's correct? I think we'll have to wait for CCP to elaborate.
Actually, both of the excerpts I posted are fairly new. I believe Heart of the Rogue Drone is a new level 4 courier storyline mission.
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Bel found it for me; in RF's description it says
"Though it has not the same access to advanced weaponry or hi-tech equipment as the fleets of the other empires"
and that's probably what Seri is misquoting.
I do not personally read that as RF not being able to use high-tech, or not using it. I read it as them not having the same access as bigger, wealthier nations: they still have some, just it is harder to come by due to money and logistics.
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I do not personally read that as RF not being able to use high-tech, or not using it. I read it as them not having the same access as bigger, wealthier nations: they still have some, just it is harder to come by due to money and logistics.
...with Elders and whomever funneling money into fleets outside the Republic.
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Minmatar are ingenious in different ways. For example, while a Caldari/Gallente might hack a security terminal, a Minmatar might look at its exact physical construction instead.
Could you stop stereotyping trillions of Matari as being all the same and unable to work a [expletive deleted] computer?
It's like the American's being so proud of their fancy military technology that they assume they're technologically superior to the Russians, and being unpleasantly surprised to see things like welded titanium hulls on attack submarines, and vectored thrust on Su-27s that let them do maneuvers like the Cobra, and ejection seats that actually work at mach 1 - all things the Americans couldn't do at the time they discovered the Russians were doing it.
Sometimes, the Russian approach was somewhat brute-force, but it would be a mistake to say they were incapable of subtlety or technological innovation, or that every Russian approached every problem the same way. Sometimes the American approach is brute-force. (Ask me about their offer to fix Wellington Airport sometime) I think it depends more on the scientist or engineer in question than their race.
Sebiestor are "widely respected as being among the most innovative thinkers of the cluster", and "an ingenious people with a natural fondness for engineering."
They've been pioneering advances in applied sciences (despite labouring under chronic material shortages) for a thousand years. I don't believe that building modern spaceships is possible without a good understanding of all the technologies that go into it, including electronics and computer technology.
I think it's more the chronic material shortages that are likely to affect what Matari build than their ability or "way of thinking"
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There's several instances in PF referring to AI or androids or robots... et al. But, one of the more blatant ones is AIMeds (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AIMEDs); trusting the majority of your healthcare to an AI source indicates a rather strong layer of trust in that system.
Not all AI is going to go 'rogue' like the Rogue Drones have, however it's probably nearly impossible to predict which AI programming will lead to going rogue and which initial programming is going to stay working with you. However, it seems that some (like AIMeds) have been programmed correctly so they aren't going to turn on their creators (at least, with any regular occurrence).
The reason for limiting AI research is because often people wouldn't take the necessary precautions while developing AI. Such as restricting it to an isolated network (at least during development), along with a bunch of other safety concerns.
All of that said.... when an AI does go rogue, it's likely to cause a mess of things.
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I think one needs to be careful in how we interpret automation and artificial intelligence. Drones, builder robots, nanites, are intelligent in that they are tasked with performing a particular function better than human counterparts. How well they perform that task is largely dependent upon how well programmed they are to handle variables in said task. The need for self-aware, mechanical humanoids with two arms, two legs, a head and a torso is ridiculous when an inhuman design could perform the task just as well with much less programming.
I don't see how an advanced, space-faring universe with knowledge of computers and uploaded, digital minds (See Cloning, Zainou, etc.) wouldn't have an abundance of automated, intelligent devices performing the functions of society that no one wants to.
With all that said, the scale of technology and the capability for destruction an artificial intelligence could inflict if allowed to penetrate computer networks would certainly be cause for alarm for any civilization. Especially with the presence of rogue drones in entire regions of space, and sleeper robots lurking in wormholes, there are very clear examples of science gone horribly wrong (unlike reality, where we only have skynet :( ). I'm sure all the major powers still tinker with sentient AI. in the hopes of gaining an edge, while still publicly opposing them. ^_^
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Fraggin' Deus
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Fraggin' Deus
I AM SORRY SIN', I'M AFRAID I CAN'T LET YOU DO THAT.
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There's several instances in PF referring to AI or androids or robots... et al. But, one of the more blatant ones is AIMeds (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AIMEDs); trusting the majority of your healthcare to an AI source indicates a rather strong layer of trust in that system.
Can you find where you read the above, I can only find the following and it reads to me slightly differently?
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AIMEDs (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AIMEDs)
In particular, I don't read "trust" and "majority of healthcare" in there, rather that people use AIMEDs because it is perceived to be better than nothing when it is not possible to get to a human doctor.
I'm not disputing the existence of robots, PF does indeed have many examples of them. :) I am just curious as to how our mental images of how stuff - in particular AIMEDs - might work differ? I have so far imagined Eve AIMEDs to be more like the descendants of modern day expert systems ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system ) utilized to some extent by people themselves and by medical personnel with more or less training as opposed to self-aware robots independently treating patients. I have assumed such AIMEDs would have little self-awareness and a limited ability to learn - at least regarding things outside their field.
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uploaded, digital minds (See Cloning, Zainou, etc.)
Actually, not confirmed by PF as far as I know (and currently, that's pretty far). See
http://www.electusmatari.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=8599 (compilation of all PF referring to clones) and
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1380078&page=4#109 (comment on it by CCP Dropbear; the responses to that are worth reading too).
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Here. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Zainou_(NPC_corporation))
A biotech company founded by the eccentric Todo Kirkinen, the first man to have his mind transferred into a machine. Zainou has from its inception been at the forefront of bio-chemical and nano-mechanical research, its headquarters are described as a combination of a mad scientist's lab and a jungle zoo.
I was also referring to capsuleers when they are cloned. Their memories are uploaded through a network and downloaded into a new body.
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Here. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Zainou_(NPC_corporation))
A biotech company founded by the eccentric Todo Kirkinen, the first man to have his mind transferred into a machine. Zainou has from its inception been at the forefront of bio-chemical and nano-mechanical research, its headquarters are described as a combination of a mad scientist's lab and a jungle zoo.
I was also referring to capsuleers when they are cloned. Their memories are uploaded through a network and downloaded into a new body.
Ah right, forgot about the Zainou guy, thanks. Some of this stuff is going on then.
But see the above link for CCP Dropbears comment and the reply for why transmitting "through a network" might actually not be necessary if the PF quantum-coupling mumbojumbo holds.
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Can you find where you read the above, I can only find the following and it reads to me slightly differently?
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AIMEDs (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AIMEDs)
"On most stations, robotic AI Medical Doctors (AIMEDs, more commonly known as "AI Docs" or just "AIDs") are much more common than human medical practitioners, and much more affordable."
More common, meaning more readily available, meaning commonly used (fairly straight forward logic train the way I see it, but I could be wrong). It's also entirely possible that each human doctor has a number of AIMeds that work under their name instead of solo opperations by the AIMeds, we don't have enough to say for sure, but the idea that AIs are more common in the medical field seems fairly clear the way I see things.
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On most stations.
The paradigm on what is profitable/affordable in stations is quite different on what it is planetside.
Planetside the human workforce is much cheaper, much more varied and much cheaper to sustain.
Specialist automation needs less upkeep on stations in means of space and life support than having a workforce of three different doctors to get a 24 hour coverage, also you do not have to pay the AIMeds, just pay the upkeep.
On another note, even today all medical information that can be digitized and sent to a country that has lower pay, the specialists of that country are used to make diagnosis. Several AIMeds could be overseen by specialists planetside that could contact real specialists if a need would arise. Hell, at the moment they are using robots to do heart surgery, with fast enough communication doctors could do all of the operations from a remote terminals planetside (or from something similar to capsules) leaving the 'medical artificial intelligences' nothing else to do than to gather information from the client and doing a preliminary diagnosis, all the procedures could be handled by trained human individuals. That could even be a good way to get an edge on your competition that only uses lobotomized AIs to cut you up.
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Can you find where you read the above, I can only find the following and it reads to me slightly differently?
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AIMEDs (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AIMEDs)
"On most stations, robotic AI Medical Doctors (AIMEDs, more commonly known as "AI Docs" or just "AIDs") are much more common than human medical practitioners, and much more affordable."
More common, meaning more readily available, meaning commonly used (fairly straight forward logic train the way I see it, but I could be wrong). It's also entirely possible that each human doctor has a number of AIMeds that work under their name instead of solo opperations by the AIMeds, we don't have enough to say for sure, but the idea that AIs are more common in the medical field seems fairly clear the way I see things.
Ah, I wondered if you were thinking of a piece of PF I didn't know about. :)
For explanation, I read the part slightly differently, but I agree there are different ways to interpret it. To quote both the shorter and longer description:
On most stations, robotic AI Medical Doctors (AIMEDs, more commonly known as "AI Docs" or just "AIDs") are much more common than human medical practitioners, and much more affordable.
AIMEDs stands for robotic AI Medical Doctors.
Information from the mission Carrying AIMEDs :
Medical doctors being in such short supply, and thus in high demand, few of them are willing to risk their lives for a less lucrative practice than the one they can run comfortably planet-side. On stations, robotic AI Medical Doctors (AIMEDs, more commonly known as "AI Docs" or just "AIDs") are much more common than human medical practitioners, and much more affordable.
I added emphasis to highlight where my interpretation differed (as opposed to showing the most important points).
I personally subscribe to the viewpoint that majority of populations lives on planets and a minority on stations, and also that most space stations are pretty small places, and not always very safe. (Think in terms of places capsuleers encounter in missions as opposed to the stations capsuleers dock at)
So I assumed the "most stations" described above as having difficulty getting qualified medical personnel "to risk their lives" would refer primarily to the small, backward, unsafe ones.
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On the floor, floating around and over their feet, were cleaner bugs, tiny robotic beetles that swarmed over all public surfaces. Each beetle had feelers that allowed it to home in on dirt and various pieces of gunk. It would hover over the detritus and use a combination of fire and tiny pressure pumps to crack it into pieces, which it would ingest and use to fuel its process. The bugs were cheap, easily mass-produced, and accepted even by insectophobiacs as an inescapable part of station life.
'Mr President,' announced one of the drones behind him. 'The guests have all boarded. Your transport is ready for departure.'
'All right,' he asnwered, turning to follow his metallic companions towards the spaceport.
One guy got trapped in the laundry room after hours and had to be rescued by maintenance drones.
The young Minmatar passed the mudbrick walls of the terminal with its sputtering praydrones and its ragged rush of beggars,
what a mining operation should be: afrontier settlement, run by people operating equipment rather than drones doing all the work on man's behalf.
Caretaker drones gently helped her sit upright in the bed of her chambers. Servants no longer looked after her when she confronted her demons.
In one ear, the pilots and crew of CreoDron were hearing stories of a new, unknown civilization and in the other, the mechanical drawl of a Federation police drone reading them their rights.
"So even while relaxing in a bar the migration workers took the precaution to give the impression of separation, in case of lurking informers or camera drones."
"He felt directly threatened by Rali's intelligence, and often times humiliated him in front of others by giving him tasks typically assigned to drones, such as cleaning restrooms, picking up after him, et cetera."
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_1qI3C6_7ww4/TU15ZJ64ZTI/AAAAAAAAABE/OKTg2QmLSDo/Drones%20Everywhere.jpg)
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There are a few references to AI and drones in The Burning Life.
In such a technologically advanced place as New Eden, wouldn't androids be viable? I'm sure I've read somewhere about Serpentis sex droids.
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Pretty sure there are "intelligent" drones guided by expert systems. A whole lot of them might even include some adaptive programming. However, I would assume that the real restricted thing is true machine learning. New Eden has pretty cool processor tech, so an AIMED, for example, might be able to list a patient's symptoms, take a few blood samples and analyze them for the patient's DNA and infections, and then scan the equivalent of a medical manual for possible matches. Of course, usually all of this isn't even needed, and the problem is apparent. (It might be hilarious to the outside observer if not to the patient if the AIMED malfunctioned in those cases: "I burned my hand while cooking." "Please pee on this cup." "Wait, what?")
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...(It might be hilarious to the outside observer if not to the patient if the AIMED malfunctioned in those cases: "I burned my hand while cooking." "Please pee on this cup." "Wait, what?")
You've just given me an idea to write in my blag. x3
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well... drones and androids are specific titles...
Drones are usually semi-sentient non humanoid machines, capable of performing set tasks, and adapting in minor ways to different situations, to take the AIMED example, the medical drone can treat the same injury in people of vastly different proportions, therefore adapting in a minor manner.
Androids are on the other hand semi-sentient (or more) humanoid machines, usually created to perform tasks that are normally performed by a human. Generally these constructs are restricted to places that are at least temporarily too hazardous for humans to operate in. for instance, the crew for Malarthi Behemoth's Freighter bomb.
Other automated systems could simply mean automated production lines (think car factories now, where a lot of things are done by machines with a small number of overseers to ensure things run smoothly) and other such systems. where automation of repetetive and numbing tasks is more efficient and cheaper than using a human workforce.
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Due to the topic, people might want to specify whether they use the word "sentience" for "able to feel and able to sense surroundings" or "self-consciousness".or "sapience".
EVE does have sentient (sensing) weak AI, likely programmed with limited self-protection and able to adapt to different problems within its own field of service. However, whether even the Rogue Drones possess strong AI (human-level intelligence) or whether it's "just" somewhat smart adaptive programming running on a self-replicating platform with loads of computing power might be questionable. (Personally, I'd liken them to an ant-hill with access to metalworking, lasers and supercomputers.)
Also, in EVE, "drone" seems to be a generic term for any self-mobile machine (such as the drones we use to cleaning and janitor bots on board stations). Android, of course, is Greek for "likeness of a man", and used for man-shaped machines (currently almost universally man-shaped robots). A robot, in turn, is a machine that can sense its surroundings and autonomously do tasks. (Intelligence isn't necessarily a prerequisite for this.)
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Yeah, while the general definition of android might be semi-sentient, might be different in EVE.
The nexus chips required for building faction ships mention...
"This small data chip stores the key elements of a ship's artificial intelligence system, and is used primarily for controlling the vessel's autonomous functions"
Again, I would stress how the use of the word "android" in EVE is recent (Spring 2010) and the illegalization of AI is something older...you know what CCP are like.
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AI can mean a lot of different things.
Computers that can do very clever things are different from computers that can think for (and perhaps of) themselves. I think that things like AIMEDs probably refer to the former rather than the latter. More Watson on Jeopardy than Data on Star Trek. I think that things can be called 'AI's without it being inconsistent with the CONCORD ban, which seems to be in place to address a fairly specific definition of the words 'Artificial Intelligence'.
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Funnily enough, one of the "real" uses for the technology behind Watson is apparently making medical diagnoses. It's not even close to a strong AI. Now, let's have another Watson with thousand- or million-fold computing resources, miniaturized into an android chassis (or a part of it). You get AIMEDs. (Though I'd assume that the central databases would not be on board the customer service unit, just some distributed computing.)
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What the rogue drones did in We Humans (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=02-03-09) was make a choice between abstracts, I'd say that puts at least that hive in the strong category. They did more than follow a programmed response when being swayed by the Thukker. Whether that was how they were originally made, evolved to that level (even though weak AI shouldn't evolve <.<), or got cross-pollinated with Sleepers... well, who knows?
I see AIMEDs as so weak that they're possibly only good VIs (they're interactive enough in specific settings that you think they're intelligent). They'd not need much to run a comparison of vitals and signs/symptoms against a list of ailments in an on-board medical encyclopedia and select the treatment option connected to it. But, without a perceived bedside manner provided by at least a VI responding to social cues, they're just medicine-dispensing, surgery-performing tools and not really treating patients - vending machines with knives.
Sleeper drones... I've not found anything yet to make it clear to me if they're uploaded minds or strong AI. I'm leaning towards there being both among their various types and quite possibly a mix of both on some individual drone types.
Given how the setting of EVE is, the cluster is doomed if a seed AI is born. Not even Skynet in the Terminator movies (which is the closest example I can think of that people will recognize) was capable of rewriting itself at will; it was only a strong AI. Something able to become faster, smarter, and then using that to improve itself exponentially again and again would be alien in every sense of the word within minutes of, "I think, therefore I am." All you can do then is hope and pray it stays something you can consider friendly or has no way to affect the world around it, but this is EVE; how often does that happen?
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Given how the setting of EVE is, the cluster is doomed if a seed AI is born. Not even Skynet in the Terminator movies (which is the closest example I can think of that people will recognize) was capable of rewriting itself at will; it was only a strong AI. Something able to become faster, smarter, and then using that to improve itself exponentially again and again would be alien in every sense of the word within minutes of, "I think, therefore I am." All you can do then is hope and pray it stays something you can consider friendly or has no way to affect the world around it, but this is EVE; how often does that happen?
hmmm... while i see where you are going with this, i don't think that such philosophical debate such as 'i think, therefore i am,' would be something an AI, even a fully fledged intelligence, would truly consider... though it may debate that the true syntax should be 'i am, therefore i think.'
Or merely, 'I Am. this is evident by my ability to state this fact.'
that said, after uploading his mind into a machine, the CEO of Zainou is technically now a form of AI, (or perhaps DI (Digitised Intelligence)), supposedly simillar to the sleepers, if they truly are merely playing a glorified flight sim... lol. I guess he and the sleepers would be able to consider philosophical debate.
Here's a worry... Zainou's CEO is now in a machine, probably linked to every Zainou Corp mainframe and comms relay in the cluster.... what if he goes all crazy and happened to put nano-trancievers into every Zainou implant.... AAAAAHHHH another sansha... :P
'teh cluster, she be screwed.' - Anon
just some thoughts really...
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I have reached the conclusion that if there was space-based drones, there is equally the scope for land-based drones too. What would be so different in basic algorithms and protocol?
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Zainou Corp's CEO could be labeled as cyborg being as they were a human turned machine.
The whole area of 'AI turned to monster because it was too damned intelligent' could be the reason advanced AI are banned by CONCORD.
I'm pretty sure there are land-based AI, why should it be a space-specific tech when a lot of resources & tech are shared between on-world & off-world people at any rate?
Kohiko; you're forgetting The Matrix which was started by an AI that got too powerful for control.
Really, I don't know how anyone can complain about EVE having androids/drones because of combat drones and AIMEDs.
I have reached the conclusion that if there was space-based drones, there is equally the scope for land-based drones too. What would be so different in basic algorithms and protocol?
No, not at all; the tech would only differ in the fact that they'll have propulsion methods suited for the terrain. Moar legs, wheels, tracks, jelliwopter blades, wings... That sort of thing.
Electronics in spaec and electronics on a planet wont be any different, neither will the CPU. Unless they use more or fewer bio components between the different areas.
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I'll start by saying that drone AI in EVE is a game AI, not an actual combat AI. As such, it displays several traits which are clearly identifyable as balance-oriented game mechanics and not desirable combat traits (for instance, instead of circling in, drones simply charge straight towards targets. Any interceptor pilot can tell you that's a suicidal move). As such, it's hard for me to judge how widely things would actually change, as our drones have no sense of things like the battlefield environment (debris, gas/dust fields, asteroids...) or the ability to identify a target and select a best method to engage that target - things that would heavily change in a planetside-oriented program.
The underlieing theories (threat identification, navigation, self-management of fuel, ammunition, and diagnostics), though, would likely be largely the same... i.e., combat-related navigation would still be (in its most fundamental state), something akin to "approach target, activate weapon, compensate for weapon recoil (if any), begin simplistic evasive maneuvers while following targets".
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Thing to remember would be that game AI and the actual AI of the drones in RP would be totally different.
Look at the squids in The Matrix, they bounce around as they approach. Doing that in space would be far easier, and I doubt that they'd settle for a purely circular orbit. The rogue drones would learn about previous battles & tactics from the hive mind.
If CCP could program such an advanced AI, I'm sure they'll leave the internet spaceships business and go into military contracting.
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Well, yes, I know it would be designed completely different, I'm just thinking that there easily can be "walker drones" like the linked pic in the OP, which some of us debated as unlikely.
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hmmm... while i see where you are going with this, i don't think that such philosophical debate such as 'i think, therefore i am,' would be something an AI, even a fully fledged intelligence, would truly consider... though it may debate that the true syntax should be 'i am, therefore i think.'
Or merely, 'I Am. this is evident by my ability to state this fact.'
I used that old philosophical trope to mean when it becomes self-aware. I'm sorry if I made it sound like one of those goofy Hollywood AIs that always asks what is god or something just as inane to show the audience that robots are people too. That cliche of the genre drives me batty. I'm looking at you, Cylons! "What is god? Let's have sex. What is god? Let's have sex." /headdesk
Look at the squids in The Matrix, they bounce around as they approach.
As a funny and off topic side note, when I played Matrix Online there were arcade video games called "Sentinel" in stores all over the city. I always laughed at the idea that some blue pill would play them thinking it was a game, but they might actually be controlling a Sentinel attacking the humans in the real world before the peace. It's a good way to make use of those meat computers in the batteries' heads.
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Also there are indications that Aura is almost sentient.
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I'm not gonna make a big deal of it, but I find it really funny that people are giving this topic this much probability. I still remember getting chewed out for my ships being crewed by machines, and having people bother me about it until I changed it.
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well, there are police and security drones mentioned in TEA, atmospheric military drones deployed during the invasions by heth and the elders, and even marcus jror had assistant and security drones inside his ship... they got between him and that gord fellow...
so i would think that walker or hover drones are in canon. just not used in a hugely widespread manner.
just remembered, due to the post below, when the broker was sabotaging tripwire, he had an engineering drone with him.
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Small hover drones are mentioned in at least one Chronicle in terms of helping techs and engineers and such as well.
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Small hover drones are mentioned in at least one Chronicle in terms of helping techs and engineers and such as well.
Also in TBL, but I can't be bothered to ride 30km just to browse through the book and say which page.
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The mission "New Frontiers" involves a plot involving an AI scientist.
[spoiler]After studying the Rogue Drones, he fuses himself with an AI. Also using molecular-level nanites that can remake his new battleship "body" as long as the AI core / CPU / enough nanites survive.[/spoiler]
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Ooooh. More of that!