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[Laria Raven]

Hi,

Really don't want this to go into specific instances, so please be nice!

Where do people think "reasonable things about your character" becomes "god-modding". Where's the line?

Clearly "I launch rockets from my concealed rocket launcher in my arms and you all die" is god-modding. But what about more subtle stuff? And how much control do you think owners of spaces (i.e. channels representing physical locations) should have over that space and NPCs within it.

Obviously, we work on a consensual RP basis, so what can one do to mitigate against potentially being accused of god-modding? And how does it differ from railroading? (i.e. when you enter a scene wanting only one outcome)

[Arista Shahni]

I feel that even people who plan out being 10 foot tall Terminator models are better than the 'bad kind' of God modding - at last youc an see they are 10 feet tall when you run into them.

Primrily people who change their character, its abilities, and the surrounding environment to 'win' a scene, then claim all that shit was there in the first place.

Yeh this is why you have to trust the people you RP with in character sheet-less and essentially rule-less situations.  When their inventory or knowledge turns into a 'Mary Poppins' Bag' situation and they can literally pull anything out of their ass.                                                                                                                              This is why that though sometimes it feels derpy on a reality level for characters to admit to certain thing or do them in public "ha!  why is Diana firing a gun on board a space station!" hgets yelled IC... It is teaching an OOC lesson that the char is a quickdraw expert.  Its been done in public, people have seen it.  Therefore if she quickdraws on someone in private she isn't pulling that skill from her ass specifically to impact your character in the way she chooses.  (Like with metal rounds.(

[Desiderya]

Discarding the less subtle "I shoot you ded"-type of powergaming it usually happens alongside light mary-sueing and can be spotted when a character is never cought flat-footed, always manages to find the perfect solution to a given problem (by pulling things out of his ass just conveniently in time), is never seriously injured or at a disadvantage in physical conflict, or - and this ladies and gentlemen is the important bit - simply never loses.

[Anslol]

If you don't have some kind of flaw or weakness that can really screw you over...it's a little much. I play Anslo as some stupid experiment gone rather wrong, but he isn't some perfect cold and calculating demi-god. He has flaws and issues that, despite being rather tough and cunning, REALLY mess him up and prevent him from reaching goals.

[Gottii]

Here's some things I consider god-modding.

1.) Players who use other characters or other characters' background to define theirs. 

"No way any other character could defeat Badassatron, he is a Civire Kameiras with the most bleeding edge cybernetics and gene modification in EVE that no one else could ever get.  Dont worry, hes not Mary Sue or anything, he had dyslexia.  Yanno, so he's realistic" 

or

Dominatrixia, after she escaped from sexual slavery in the Amarr Slave Brothel on Misery IV, became the highest scoring pilot to come out of the Republic Military Academy ever.  She still has a statue there.  Your character probably saw it when she studied there.

2.) Players who ignore PF to suit "the way its always been" when it comes to describing the world.

"Look, I dont care about what Evelopedia, those two chronicles, the Burning Life, and common sense says about my faction, we've always played it this way, and really, all that stuff is stupid. Dont be so Tony G."


3.) Players who tell you what you can and cant react to as another player.

"Look, bro, when he was out roaming around and shooting people in your low sec with a bunch of red-flashy outlaws, that was totally, like, out of character and really just fun time.  IC he was back home supporting his faction.  Hes not really a pirate or anything."

Basically, I think of godmodding as any player who unilaterally seeks to control the game world or other people's characters to suit their own proclivities.

[Etienne Saissore]

Some rules of thumb for making up game world related stuff which in my view would be relatively easy to digest (with comments or "examples"):

*Should not be something everyone would already be aware of if it was true ("Explosion on Jita 4/4!")
*Would be more immersion breaking if the claim wasn't true ("Some families of the crew members are worried.")
*Should not contradict the game mechanics or what has happened in-game. (Otherwise there's no way to prove someone as a liar.)
*If CCP has declared the relevant lore to be OOC information, it's off-limits ("You mean Earwik?" "Broker who?")
*Should not contradict the style and spirit of the MOTD (Is it a place? A video chat? Does it support holo-presence? Do you have to be docked? Usually, it should be alright to talk about items and furniture which could have been brought in just recently without much effort, and whose presence wouldn't surprise anyone. On the other hand, if a character states that the walls are black and the ceiling is high, it should probably be understood as an indication of a depressive mood, unless the MOTD suggests that this really is how the room looks like. If there's uncertainty, ask a mod.)
*The claim could be a lie, deliberate misdirection, or "it's a wide cluster" argument applies ("I was raised by predatory animals." "The Free Love movement is on the raise." "Our ideology is popular among the youth.")
*A conspiracy theorist/delusional person/scam artist could come up with the idea IRL ("The [insert philosophy/product] of [insert NPC] is worthy of my unyielding loyalty." "You are the father of my baby." "The President is obsessed with me and wants to kill me.")

What complicates things is that people don't always understand what you try to accomplish. For instance, the last example involves the President. The purpose of the (ridiculous) statement is to tell something about your character (paranoia, delusions, self-importance) but some players will understand it as a claim about the President, and if they are in the majority, you will be accused of god-modding and no amount of explaining will change this perception. In-character lies, deliberate misdirection and sarcasm come with the same challenge. It's a mine field but can also be fun in the right environment.

[Anslol]

*The claim could be a lie, deliberate misdirection, or "it's a wide cluster" argument applies ("I was raised by predatory animals." "The Free Love movement is on the raise." "Our ideology is popular among the youth.")

^Define the wide cluster bit...cause I'm basing all my DMID stuff on the cluster being huge and diseases being localized in specific parts of specific planets...I don't think that's god-modding.

The way I see it, if people thought it was, this is what'd happen'

"That disease doesn't exist!"
"Well not here it does. Read the database, it's caught only if you eat a sick fish from this one pond on a planet that's half way across the cluster!"
"I don't care, you just made it up."
"Well that's the whole point of player-driven content?"
"I don't care, you're god-modding and I'll tell EVERYONE that you are so you aren't credible and you'll be ignored : ))))) "
"Fine, fuck you."

At that point...I'd question why even bother trying to write content. Not just me, but anyone.

[Silas Vitalia]

Gotti wins.


The Adventures of Dominatrixia and Badassatron

Coming soon to a Holo-Theater near you

[Aelisha Montenagre]

I keep my definition of god-moding simple in three points:

• Any non-consensual 'remote controlling' of another's actions. 'All present lower their eyes in deference'
• Irresistible strike.  Any action or activity that no matter what, will benefit one party not by agreement, but by an initial action that prevents counter.  'Dust Mercenaries pour out of hidden alcoves, as the party's host cackles and has them strip the guests of weapons, hidden or no, before continuing his tirade'
• Channel operators are essentially 'the Train Man' from the Matrix trilogy (gods in their domain, unremarkable in others).  God-moding is in the eye of the beholder - in player run venues, be sure of what YOUR idea of god moding is, and leave if your threshold is crossed.  Some people and corps like to have a clear hierarchy when arbitrary decisions and tradition demand an element of cues from other players that can be seen as god moding by outsiders - but netiquette in general should mean that the MOTD or a member of said group should inform you that your character will be pushed, pulled or positioned due to this - not leave you to feel like you've been a puppet in some weird scenario.

Ael and Sol generally avoid non-neutral turf interaction simply because it isn't outside the realm of reality that a channel is compromised, the walls are full of dust mercs or some derp will god-mode drinking a batch of Kyonoke and projectile vomit during a Gala (killing everyone there by being there essentially). 

Channels are the private domains of their owners, tread in them only if you see eye to eye with the basics of their operational values.

Addendum: With eve we have a client-based medium through which to do actual harm to one another - all else is words.  Verbiage to dismantle reputations is par for the course, but it is pretty hard to god-mode in EVE in a way that doesn't essentially burn your credibility right out of the gate.  'Lord Whatsit ruins Lord Hatesits reputation with the Theology Council in a secret meeting! [Hatesits has +10 with the Theo Council and runs missions for them 'religiously' - this is clearly point scoring intra-faction as there is no way this was actionable]'

In this way I am some what of a literalist - I had to undo Ael's gallente standings when I migrated to the State for example, and Sol still has terrible Sansha standing, so works to improve it at times, knowing that she has a lot to answer for - having worked against His plan for so long before seeing the Master's truth (etc etc kool aid yadda).  Then again we cannot see one another's standings anymore - so intrigue is afoot!

[Etienne Saissore]

^Define the wide cluster bit...cause I'm basing all my DMID stuff on the cluster being huge and diseases being localized in specific parts of specific planets...I don't think that's god-modding.

The cluster is humongous and there has to exist all kinds of things we haven't heard of, that's the wider cluster argument. I also don't think it's god-modding.

Like you say, all fan fiction and RP can be seen as god-modding and that's why I thought it'd be easier to make a list of things which would be easy to accept, things like your DMID stuff.

Sorry for writing unclearly.

[Anslol]

No it's fine. It's just my own paranoia. I was thinking well if this is god modding..why bother? Why bother with ANY PF content? Sadly there's people like that.

'If CCP doesn't say it exists then it doesn't exist.'

So stagnate, ya know?

[Aelisha Montenagre]

No it's fine. It's just my own paranoia. I was thinking well if this is god modding..why bother? Why bother with ANY PF content? Sadly there's people like that.

'If CCP doesn't say it exists then it doesn't exist.'

So stagnate, ya know?

Content generation is not god moding at all IMO, but if it is retconned or pile driven by CCP lore later on, it will often be seen as that character being particularly ill informed (and some will weaponise this).  Then again, it isn't people who are wrong that are stupid, but those that refuse to admit that they can be - Game on brother, in other words.

[Silas Vitalia]

Some great definitions I've seen here!


I'd split it up into 'character' godmodding and 'situational' godmodding.

Character godmodding is giving yourself +10 unconsentual RP bonuses and 0 faults.

So, our standard mary sue heavily cyberized nigh-invulnerable super capsuleer kung-fu expert who owns 9 titans and has slept with the empress, tibus heth, (and your mom).

Situational godmodding is as mentioned, pulling something out of thin air to never, ever lose or look bad in any situation. 

Ninja's coming out of the walls? That's ok I was actually here BEFORE you were and planted bombs on all the ninjas. Boom. Boom?


I actually don't see all too much of this sort of thing these days, but then again I don't get my char. into too many scenes where bad things can happen.  Most 'common' channels feature VR telepresense, or the MOTD is explicit with security measures that you can handwave any godmodding away pretty easily.

Some of you might not notice but I've taken S. to maybe 1 or 2 physical channels in the last several years that weren't heavily under control against this sort of thing or run by close IC friends.

If I went to a neutral channel and things 'went down' IC, I'd have to think on how much I'd let it stand, but I'd have to weigh the stupidity of going someplace unsecure vs any bad things that happened (say a bomb or getting taken prisoner, etc).  Honestly I'd probably have to roll with it at that point.

An example, I went to the IRED lounge like 6 months ago, and it was only under IC-guarantees of safety.  someone there could have certainly stabbed me or poisoned my tea or something and I'd probably have had to just go with it.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Some good points here, especially about where worldbuilding (or responses to such) become godmod-ish.

I have a few additional issues I figure are worth discussing as well:

1. What are your thoughts on involving a character in an issue dear to them, and then leaving them out of any control of the situation? For example:

Char 1 asks Char 2 to help them on something Char 2 is well-known for being a passionate supporter of. For example, let's say Char 1 asks Char 2 for help warding off an upcoming Sansha invasion (sorry toasterbros, <3 you guys) knowing that Char 2 deeply cares about fighting the Sansha. Some time later, though, Char 1 reveals - either IC or OOC - that there wasn't really a chance to fight the Sansha; in "his" storyline, the Sansha were always going to succeed in this raid. But by this time, Char 1 is already heavily involved.

In this case, the storyline is Char 1's. He obviously has the right to decide whether the raid succeeds or fails. However, by involving Char 2 without revealing that Char 2 is doomed to be affected by something Char 2 is well-known to be emotionally affected by, he has (possibly) godmodded Char 2?

2. What are all of your thoughts on ship crew? In my opinion, as an intangible 'resource' ship crew "belong" in RP terms to the owner of the ship; if you want to do something with them after you blow up their ship, you ask the pilot (OOCly) if it's okay with them. Otherwise you run into issues like:

Pilot 1: Ha-hah! I have captured your crew, and they will now be subject to the strictest justice standards of my people!
Pilot 2: That's impossible, my crew are trained to execute the wounded and commit suicide rather than be captured!

Admittedly Pilot 2's response might seem rather frustrating in its own right, but the crew are his RP invention: IMO, Pilot 1 has no more right to dictate what happens to the crew than he does Pilot 2's channel environments.


3. What are your thoughts on pilots with "crazy prepared" security systems? Using Esna as an example because I'm cool with it, he has (at no small cost) prepared a system which ties a unique signature to his IC files and logs, making them tremendously difficult to falsify (or claim as falsified).

[Arista Shahni]

Char 1 asks Char 2 to help them on something Char 2 is well-known for being a passionate supporter of. For example, let's say Char 1 asks Char 2 for help warding off an upcoming Sansha invasion (sorry toasterbros, <3 you guys) knowing that Char 2 deeply cares about fighting the Sansha. Some time later, though, Char 1 reveals - either IC or OOC - that there wasn't really a chance to fight the Sansha; in "his" storyline, the Sansha were always going to succeed in this raid. But by this time, Char 1 is already heavily involved.

Today's answers are partially brought to you by (reading over my shoulder) Mirage!  The man who refuses to roleplay with anyone because of "shit like this in general".

Answer to 1:  "It is not godmodding, but as Char1 didn't inform Char2 OOC, they are being kind of a dick.  At that point if I was Char2 I'd kill a bunch of Sansha and make a public contract with the tags.  My job of Sansha killing is therefore done and proven by game mechanics."

Me:  They are using Char2 not as a participant in a plot/story/scene, but as a witness or audience member in their own speshul little play which they have no choice but to watch.  Its not godmodding but its fucking uncool, especially if it was planned out OOC to fuck over Char2.  Now, be careful of generating conspiracies.  Some shit just happens like that - "I want people to see what happens" - and the person organising it have no idea (and hey, may not care but not the point) about the impact of what goes down in that scene to the characters invited to 'join in', be it a one night scene or a continuing plotline.   Flatly, some plots and scenes in some RPers worlds are, essentially "The story of me and this other person, and everyone else just gets to watch how cool we are."

2. What are all of your thoughts on ship crew? In my opinion, as an intangible 'resource' ship crew "belong" in RP terms to the owner of the ship; if you want to do something with them after you blow up their ship, you ask the pilot (OOCly) if it's okay with them. Otherwise you run into issues like:

Mirage yells, "The Science is leaking out!"

Me:
EVE ships, PF wise, have crew.  Then we're told: game mechanics are canon.  Therefore our ships have no crew.  There is no crew on board.  Crew lifepods do not eject.  They do not show up as corpses in wreckloot.  Mechanics = canon = no fucking crew. 

This issue is SO INSIGNIFICANT TO CCP IT WILL NEVER BE RESOLVED, especially not to satisfy RP charsheet waving fights. 

(at this point,   Arista and Mirage begin to argue about the value of a single interstellar credit, as HE remembers the lore being the case that a planetside person or ship crew would never see a single whole isk worth of money in their lifetime, ever, period.  He argues that the day to day life of baseliners are so significantly below a capsuleer's notice that it shouldn't even be an issue, that he never even laid a single thought to  the death of his crew, that hiring them is handled by a personell manager that gets paid some .000001 ISK or something so non-significant it never impacts the game's mechanical wallet.  There was no visual representation of them in the game therefore they are not even significant enough to be cared about. Now he is discussing how getting a cruiser was a landmark achievement back in the day.  Arista tucks him in and gives him his night-time meds.  Poor vet.)

Me: Officially we can play with and kill imaginary baseliners all day.  For a missionrunner it is, in fact, what we actually do all day.  When people discuss capsuleers as a whole being too touchy feely, rememeber 200+ or so roleplaying capsuleers who give a shit about it, versus hundreds and thousands of ones who do not.  We do not change the cold hearted stereotype of a capsuleer, as we are all nearly outliers in the curve if we even know a crewmember's name.

3. What are your thoughts on pilots with "crazy prepared" security systems? Using Esna as an example because I'm cool with it, he has (at no small cost) prepared a system which ties a unique signature to his IC files and logs, making them tremendously difficult to falsify (or claim as falsified).

It's hard to trick CONCORD.  I've only done it once, by biomassing a character and then having it restored.  It took CONCORD systems approx 72 hours to make her locateable again, and to this day her employment history files are bugged.

Though it is nice to yell 'LOL HACKING FIVE' -- no char can impact anyone else in that sort of cyberintrustive method, period, without the player's permission.