Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Synthia on 18 Jan 2013, 06:57
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I can construct the Amarr society and slavery from the passages on Evelopedia.
"In the beginning all things were as one. God parted them and breathed life into his creation, Divided the parts and gave each its place, And unto each, bestowed purpose"
A place for everyone and everything. This is a foundation for the feudal society.
"Our Lord visited his flock and saw that all was not good. Blasphemy and heresy ruled the land. The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood. But the people of Amarr lived righteously and in fear of God. Thus they were saved and became God's chosen."
Origins of the Chosen as the Faithful.
"As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea; As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf; Yet all under Heaven serve Me; So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens."
The feudal society is clearly described. Serfs & slaves are included.
Thus, a faithful, feudal society is created, using just the elements on the Evelopedia.
The Sani Sabik, and their position on slavery is similarly described in the Apocryphon, and other places.
"All are equal in Gods Kingdom", allows for the Sani Sabik rejection of the Emperor and conventional society, and why non-Amarr persons may become Chosen. Different argument for slavery in the Sani Sabik tradition. It's written about Sani Sabik on the Evelopedia, that they believe some are destined for greatness, others only to serve those destined. This can derive from the Place&Purpose from the beginning, or elsewhere.
Thus, I consider the existing scriptures, while thin, sufficient to establish and explain two of the Amarrian societies. And enough to argue about IC.
I do not believe there is any need to bring in RL things.
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How is this anything other than re-opening a thread that was just locked and catacombed?
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How is this anything other than re-opening a thread that was just locked and catacombed?
It was argued the things on the Evelopedia were insufficient.
I would like to know in what way they are so insufficient.
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I'd say, no, there's not a need to bring in real life, but yes, there's a need for more material.
There's only so long you can go back and forth about the same 6 passages of scripture before It gets stale, and before the conversation runs into a place those 6 lines can't deal with.
There's supposed to be 1000s of books of scripture. Just do what the minmatar did with voluvals and clans and such and make things up. If people like it, those things will get used, if not, they'll be set aside.
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There's supposed to be 1000s of books of scripture. Just do what the minmatar did with voluvals and clans and such and make things up. If people like it, those things will get used, if not, they'll be set aside.
A good tactic IMO.
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There's only so long you can go back and forth about the same 6 passages of scripture before it gets stale, and before the conversation runs into a place those 6 lines can't deal with.
A lot more than 6.
And what is this place that "can't be dealt with" ?
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There's only so long you can go back and forth about the same 6 passages of scripture before it gets stale, and before the conversation runs into a place those 6 lines can't deal with.
A lot more than 6.
And what is this place that "can't be dealt with" ?
Questions of Amarr societal structure, the place of women, ethics, morals, homosexuality, interpretational differences, law, punishment, the afterlife, behavioural standards, philosophy, there are whole reams things the canon just does not cover.
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I'd say, no, there's not a need to bring in real life, but yes, there's a need for more material.
There's only so long you can go back and forth about the same 6 passages of scripture before It gets stale, and before the conversation runs into a place those 6 lines can't deal with.
There's supposed to be 1000s of books of scripture. Just do what the minmatar did with voluvals and clans and such and make things up. If people like it, those things will get used, if not, they'll be set aside.
It's a little different than the Voluval imho. There is quite a difference between merely creating a voluval symbol and inventing sensible scripture texts supposed to rule the daily lives of faithful amarrians. Unless you start to create a Voluval symbol supposed to be "better" or "equal" to the Ray of Matar of whatever. It only works when you create something pretty common and insignificant. I don't think there would have been such a mess if it was about a cuisine book coming from the scriptures...
Eventually I think that it is again a question of the limits of world building. The more the things you invent and create start to stomp upon someone else's RP, the more probability for drama to occur.
And of course, IRL direct references are yet another story.
However I think what Synthia says (and I agree with) is that there is plenty enough materials to flesh out the Amarr spirit, but what you say (and I agree with too) is that there is not a lot of raw scripture passages to discuss. Both of you are just speaking of 2 different things.
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There's only so long you can go back and forth about the same 6 passages of scripture before it gets stale, and before the conversation runs into a place those 6 lines can't deal with.
A lot more than 6.
And what is this place that "can't be dealt with" ?
Questions of Amarr societal structure, the place of women, ethics, morals, homosexuality, interpretational differences, law, punishment, the afterlife, behavioural standards, philosophy, there are whole reams things the canon just does not cover.
The same for all factions then ?
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The canon pretty much covers all that Saede has referred to.
In some depth as well.
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The canon pretty much covers all that Saede has referred to.
In some depth as well.
Exactly. Much has been added recently too.
Furthermore, Why would a True Amarr wish to discuss such things with outsiders ?
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There's supposed to be 1000s of books of scripture. Just do what the minmatar did with voluvals and clans and such and make things up. If people like it, those things will get used, if not, they'll be set aside.
"Making things up" is what caused the mess in the first place, because people were "making things up" by using RL religion as their source. So that sounds like a pretty terrible idea to me.
Even without that mess, there's another factor I think you're overlooking: just because it works for the Minmatar does not mean it will work for other cultures in EVE. The Minmatar, by their very nature and what we've been given by CCP, are a good candidate for the "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" method. The Amarr, however, are not. In an Empire where the easiest measure of who holds more power than whom is where they are in the family tree, where there is a single state religion with no legal alternative options, and a fairly rigid caste structure, throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks is not an appropriate tactic.
This is a case where if there are holes, CCP needs to be the ones to put up netting or fill them in outright, because the last thing the Amarr need is for their religion to be even more like modern Christianity with thousands of different interpretations that nobody agrees on. In the Empire, only the TC-approved interpretations of Scripture are valid. Making shit up with this case, in my opinion, does amount to godmoding - because if you claim something is a valid, TC-approved interpretation or piece of Scripture, you are basically claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is in violation of Amarrian law. And that'll go fun places real fucking fast.
When you're talking about your own sect or offshoot that doesn't affect anyone except those who opt into it, fine. Make up all the shit you want.
But don't try and do that with the largest religion in the cluster. That's a lot of people - NPCs included - for whom we do not have the right to dictate their actions or beliefs.
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Furthermore, Why would a True Amarr wish to discuss such things with outsiders ?
Why are they doing it then ?
I am afraid that this is another matter entirely. Not sure if I want to tell Amarr RPers that they are doing it wrong by doing so.
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There's supposed to be 1000s of books of scripture. Just do what the minmatar did with voluvals and clans and such and make things up. If people like it, those things will get used, if not, they'll be set aside.
"Making things up" is what caused the mess in the first place, because people were "making things up" by using RL religion as their source. So that sounds like a pretty terrible idea to me.
Even without that mess, there's another factor I think you're overlooking: just because it works for the Minmatar does not mean it will work for other cultures in EVE. The Minmatar, by their very nature and what we've been given by CCP, are a good candidate for the "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" method. The Amarr, however, are not. In an Empire where the easiest measure of who holds more power than whom is where they are in the family tree, where there is a single state religion with no legal alternative options, and a fairly rigid caste structure, throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks is not an appropriate tactic.
This is a case where if there are holes, CCP needs to be the ones to put up netting or fill them in outright, because the last thing the Amarr need is for their religion to be even more like modern Christianity with thousands of different interpretations that nobody agrees on. In the Empire, only the TC-approved interpretations of Scripture are valid. Making shit up with this case, in my opinion, does amount to godmoding - because if you claim something is a valid, TC-approved interpretation or piece of Scripture, you are basically claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is in violation of Amarrian law. And that'll go fun places real fucking fast.
When you're talking about your own sect or offshoot that doesn't affect anyone except those who opt into it, fine. Make up all the shit you want.
But don't try and do that with the largest religion in the cluster. That's a lot of people - NPCs included - for whom we do not have the right to dictate their actions or beliefs.
This.
TL;DR - Basically making stuff up is a legit means of creating content and RP, but you need to consider the situation and context of your creation otherwise you can easily fall into god-modder territory, and that is nasty crap we don't really want anywhere.
Basically, making stuff up is only valid in a number of situations. I'll make another example of something that is not a valid candidate for making stuff up about;
The official means the Federation employs to solve situations not covered by any PF so far. Anyone can claim what's standard modus operandi in some Federation member nation on some planet somewhere, because the odds that CCP will ever make something that directly contradicts this are fairly slim.
But no-one can come and claim out of thin air that THIS IS HOW IT WORKS AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT OR CAN LEARN ABOUT IT because there is no way of knowing for sure, because it's not in any official PF, and thus, your making shit up that should be known to billions of NPC's and hundreds or thousands of players that no-one else knows, and your basically telling all those players what they are supposed to know.
Telling Synthia that you have viable arguments regarding pieces of Imperial Scripture that you yourself recently pulled out of your ass is not only unfair and god-modding, it's very, very rude. There is no way to counter this except to play along IC on a significantly weakened standpoint (because your character now suddenly know stuff that no-one else did and acts on it) or or to argue that your claims are false to begin with, and that goes down the road of 'you!/no you!' level of argument. It's not RP at that point, it's two players arguing in an IC format about stuff you have made up on the go. Stuff that supposedly everyone else knew of from before, or could easily go find out if they wanted.
The huge problem here, I think, is partially a lack of... meat, on things like the scriptures. There are supposedly thousands of books in this fictional collection of holy works, as mentioned. But we can never expect CCP to write it all down for our enjoyment, much like we can't sit and wait for them to flesh out all the ins nd outs of every Federal, let alone Imperial, world. It can't be done.
But we can limit ourselves to taking only the known, PF revealed Scripture into context when we RP. We have to, because making up anything in what's supposedly a well-known and easily accessible codex of life, the universe and everything to trillions of humans is, sadly, going to spark this kind of nasty situation.
Making stuff up on your own is perfectly legit, but one has to consider the context and the situation at hand. Needless to say, balancing this freedom of creativity with the desire to avoid god-modding is not simple at all.
*EDIT* I forgot, I was going to add this...
It would be in our better interest to ask CCP's people who are responsible for this to kindly see if they can flesh things out a bit more. Using the Scriptures as an example, there is WAY to little of it in regards to what's supposedly there. The Scriptures supposedly cover every possible aspect of the Imperial way of life. The desired means of dress, grooming, eating habits, transportation means, warfare, trade, worship, child raising, proper maintenance rituals for pretty much anything can can imagine and so much more.
Only in regards to the Amarrian Empire there are so many major and minor things that we don't know about. Freedom of creativity is great, but many basic questions remains unanswered. Then there are all the OTHER factions... In short, I feel like we should have a 50/50 kind of situation in regards to what kind of major info about... anything... is filled out, and what we have to make up ourselves. Currently it seems we barely have 10/90 in favor of the unknown. That's pretty thin.
How are they going to do this? I don't know, but CCP's folks might. Perhaps they can look over and approve more of the good player-input, like Kat's "Greatest Fan" story. That was a great piece, as well as very universe-friendly. I don't think it would hurt to make CCP's basic ideas behind the various factions known to the players and have the willing and talented among them help them out by fleshing out some more stuff. Obviously, CCP would have final say about what get to be canon in the IP-protected fictional universe they created, but I for one would not mind at all getting PF fleshed out a tad more.
Also, note: This is supposed to be productive input and not offensive or aggressive in any way, other than getting my point across. If it's borderline violation of any rules, let me know and I'll edit it.
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Bloodbird and Morwen make good points and I see wherein issues could lie with forcing things onto other players.
On the one hand, players have already been doing this. Look at Napaani for instance. It is entirely player made and yet is basically accepted as canon. No one disputes the existence of Napaani as a language. If something is made out of character (here or on the EVE fiction forums or in player made pages on Evelopedia) is it more acceptable then if it was just riffed up on the spot? (in my mind yes, because it gives people a chance to give their OOC yay or nay on things before it hits the RP) For another example, take Splinterz, the robotic sports combat game Stitcher made up. Its supposed to be very popular in the state, and its something an average state loyalist might be expected to know. Of course this is a bit different then something as important to the canon as scripture.
On the other hand, if we don't allow player made content within the scripture, then how do we RP in the long run with what we have? Material on the ground just seems very scarce. People make the arguments, 'why isn't it good enough?' maybe its just me but this should be fairly obvious. I have to give the Amarr guys who have been doing it for 10 years credit. I definitely couldn't play a religious character while knowing so little OOCly about her beliefs and cultural norms. But its still asking for trouble and it might be good for the Amarr RP community if the stance on things was more firm. If CCP doesn't elucidate upon something, do you just not go there at all within the RP? Maybe it would be viable if some of the old guard Amarr RPers put together a 'player made theology council' to decide things the canon doesn't cover, just so that the working foundations for the RP are expanded?
On the Gripping hand, none of this would be an issue if CCP clarified things and expanded upon the available material. I've tried and boil it down to a few questions, these should probably be posed to Falcon when someone gets a chance:
*How open to interpretation is the Scripture? Does the theology council rule on absolutely everything across every aspect of Amarr society or are there places where people are entitled to their own opinions, within which player-made material could be inserted? If so, what are those places?
*For the areas that the rule of the theology council is absolute, what exactly is the position of the council? There are many things that we simply do not know their rulings on, and thus, unless we make it up, are forced to just not go there at all within the context of the RP.
*How wide of a claim can be made before its considered Godmodding? There doesn't seem to be any sort of objective measure of this.
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The thing is, making up scriptures isn't just adding extra flavour to RP like creating a new language, or sport, or piece of literature. They are the central concepts behind Amarrian dogma and what is considered Orthodox religious thought as determined by the Theology Council. The only scriptures to me that could potentially be created by players are those that are considered apocryphal, heretical or banned because to state that a piece of player made scripture is endorsed by the Theology Council directly impacts every single Amarr character and RP'er for they carry with them the stamp of official dogma and doctrine.
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Excellent point by Gesakaarin here, I agree with this as something I've tried to point out; one have to mind the context of what you create stuff for, because some things have very little to no flexible room regarding player-made fiction to wiggle in it.
Also, minor point; I don't think Stitcher 'invented' Splinterz, IIRC It's described as a sport in the State, in the novel about Gariushi,and possibly in a couple other sources as well.
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Lots of valid points here. I must admit I am quite... unsure about adding things to the Scriptures by players, for the reasons pointed out here. But the possibility of creating a thread somewhere were we could discuss OOCly the new contents, generate some feedback and with it also create a point on where we could all agree would probably be an useful tool.
There is another road as well. People usually like to quote things from the Scriptures, but most amarrians haven't read them, and certainly none out the TC has read them in full probably (maybe with the exception of characters that are theologians, like Archbishop). But in any religion there are many more sources: theology books written by theologians, letters left behind by saints and patrons, etc. Those are not Scriptures, and thus people can agree or disagree with them without direct conflict on who's necessarily right. Take for example the medieval theologian writings and compare them to current ones and you'll quickly see many points in difference within the Catholic faith, and yet none of them "negate" each other because they are not the Bible (which, by the way, also contradicts itself more often than not).
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There is a major difference between Napanii and made up scriptures like the last ones on the IGS. As much as I am always uneasy when looking at the way Napanii was created to be THE CALDARI LANGUAGE (<- obvious godmode), it was firstly well done with a LOT of work behind, and also apparently commonly accepted amongst players.
You can perfectly make something up that can be of that magnitude imho. But don't complain if people do not accept it. If they do, fine, you win and everyone is happy to see it getting part of "PF". Like Amarr Victor, or Napanii, or whatever.
But I hardly think christian pieces of scriptures would be. It's poor and misplaced material.
tl;dr : if people accept your made up stuff, all is fine, if they don't, drama.
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Making up things for "The Scriptures" is making up things that the Theology Council supports, since they control which items are part of the collection.
So you are making up things that NPCs are saying and believing, which in my RP book is a no-no.
You wouldn't make up statements from the Empress or for Tibus Heth; it's just as silly to do it for the Theology Council, some of the most powerful people in the entire cluster.
You want to make up religious documents make them up as obscure old treatise on x or y or whatever subject, putting them in the 'official' scriptures is godmodding of the highest order.
RP around it. If people want to be asses and poke such specific holes in PF gaps of knowledge it can come right back around on nearly every faction, a bad road to travel.
Have a heart and cut them a freaking break on scripture specifics.
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Napanii was created to be THE CALDARI LANGUAGE (<- obvious godmode), it was firstly well done with a LOT of work behind, and also apparently commonly accepted amongst players.
I always took Napanii to be the 'romance' dialect of the Caldari while the State has another lingua franca used in its modern life. One's a language of poetry and nostalgia and the other is the language of modernity, business and daily life.
Unless I missed something?
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Government_of_the_Amarr_Empire
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Napanii was created to be THE CALDARI LANGUAGE (<- obvious godmode), it was firstly well done with a LOT of work behind, and also apparently commonly accepted amongst players.
I always took Napanii to be the 'romance' dialect of the Caldari while the State has another lingua franca used in its modern life. One's a language of poetry and nostalgia and the other is the language of modernity, business and daily life.
Unless I missed something?
I have always been told that Napanii was the official and uniform business language of the State. vOv
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The Caldari State has an enforced language uniformity, so in some sense it would only make sense for there to be either only Napaani or not at all.
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I have never bothered to give Napaani much attention at all, as I find the introduction of Napaani affectations to be an abberation in a system where automatic translators are the norm, and all spoken and typed speech will turn up to be automatically translated and presented in plain language (unless of course, the user in question specifically modifies their software package to present Napaani in its raw form). At the same time, I also find the use of Napaani amusing as I get to watch mostly white people pretend to be Japanese-ish through the proxy of their Caldari characters.
However, that doesn't mean that I troll Napaani-using players all the time. I tend to leave it be, and Davlos justifies the usage of Napaani by other Caldari as an exercise of cultural insecurity.
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Silas (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3983.msg63728#msg63728), Morwen (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3983.msg63713#msg63713), and Geskaarin (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3983.msg63722#msg63722) have hit on something I feel pretty squarely in their posts. I would expand on what he said by commenting that Amarrian players may be very hesitant to have their characters create Scripture and present it as fact, because if there is some PF that comes out later on contradicting this (and, by extension, indicating that your character is at odds with the Theology Council of a portion of Scripture) then congratulations - your character has effectively just committed heresy. Needless to say, in the Empire this is a very bad thing, and while it doesn't necessarily amount to an automatic ejection from the Amarr RP community or anything, it does place your character in a supremely awkward position regarding that portion of their RP.
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Can I make a suggestion?
The Live Event team appears to be interested in expanding on the scriptures (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2406564#post2406564), but as they obviously cannot cover everything, perhaps one could write to the MIO (https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Ohrud%20Omel) for clarification on certain issues? Such clarification could be asked in many forms.
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I am not sure to like the way people are speaking about borrowing from the Old Testament. It scares me.
Maybe better to just see how it is constructed, like it seems to have been the case for the already existing pieces of scripture. But please, nothing more. Do something new and Amarrish.
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However, that doesn't mean that I troll Napaani-using players all the time. I tend to leave it be, and Davlos justifies the usage of Napaani by other Caldari as an exercise of cultural insecurity.
I have always thought that the use of Napaani by Caldari rpers, and also French by Gallenteans and Sanskrit & Hindi by Intaki is largely a meta-narrative tool, used to signal in-group status and reinforce community bonds.
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However, that doesn't mean that I troll Napaani-using players all the time. I tend to leave it be, and Davlos justifies the usage of Napaani by other Caldari as an exercise of cultural insecurity.
I have always thought that the use of Napaani by Caldari rpers, and also French by Gallenteans and Sanskrit & Hindi by Intaki is largely a meta-narrative tool, used to signal in-group status and reinforce community bonds.
That may be so, but like I previously mentioned, Davlos the character thinks that the usage of Napaani is a redundant affectation, for he is Caldari and does not feel the need to announce it publicly.
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https://twitter.com/CCP_Eterne/status/292462720740118528
J. Kastronis
@CCP_Eterne
More random comments to RPers that are totally not related to anything... I wrote a few more Scriptures lines that will be public SOONtm.
all the amarr bashers will have more things to complain about soon.
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https://twitter.com/CCP_Eterne/status/292462720740118528
J. Kastronis
@CCP_Eterne
More random comments to RPers that are totally not related to anything... I wrote a few more Scriptures lines that will be public SOONtm.
all the amarr bashers will have more things to complain about soon.
well, that's interesting.
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Nice.
Do like this Event team. If I had more time I would certainly make use of them.
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Just a little bit more on the OP.
The difficulty playing and interacting with Amarrian culture can be quite hard mainly for the reason that unlike the other factions there is no real life comparison to the Amarrians.
There is no theocracy that has integrated science, art, politics, basically all walks of life into their religion.
In real life religion is a tool of cultural indoctrination that encourages creating taboos and making those indoctrinated choose belief over knowledge.
Which I think is the major problem with the Amarrians, in their religion there is taboos, there is the underlying structure of choosing belief over knowledge when it comes to creating your worldview. But unlike with real life religions, there is the underlying scientific knowledge to back up those taboos with facts.
Let's take a real life religions taboo about eating pork.
The religion never explains why you can't eat pork, you just can't.
The religion has created a taboo about eating pork and those indoctrinated in the religion will choose belief over knowledge and not eat pork, no matter what.
Scientists of this day have a hypothesis about why the taboo of eating pork has surfaced in the society a few thousand years ago, pork can have certain kinds of parasites that can be transferred to humans eating their meat.
Which is bad.
If this would be the Amarrian religion, the taboo would still be there, but if you would study the religion more then the scientific reason for the taboo would surface.
Which could lead to internal debate within the religion that should the taboo be in place anymore.
Most likely the taboo would be kept.
But it would not be there because of ignorance, it would be there because of the conscious choice by those believing it.
They know that the taboo is against reason, but they choose to believe it because then it is a bigger sacrifice than when it is done unconsciously.
Which actually makes the Amarrian religion a lot more worse and 'evil'.
They are not barbaric and ignorant.
They are fully conscious of the fact that slavery is wrong but they do it because it is the right thing to do. On all the levels.
Why did I want to do this long rambling post after the thread had went on to player made languages in other factions?
For me, all cultures have indoctrination within them.
Be they real or fictious.
Those that use player made languages know that they are silly, world breaking and break up the community even more but they consciously choose to adopt such a language because it will give them more immersion. By bringing their language into the community and by indoctrinating other players into thinking that it should be used to be a roleplayer is them going through a cycle of creating taboos and rules very similar to a religion.
It is all funny and confusing (also a bit sad.)
Feck, I lost my original idea here, better go grab some brekkies.
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I honestly don't think the Amarrians view slavery as 'genuinely evil' but does so anyway because "It's really the right thing to do, honest, it is!"
This is one of the cornerstones of their entire existence - the Empire supposedly belong to God, every citizen is his servant in some way in the hierarchy, and slavery is the absolutely needed first step. Even most reformers I've seen don't argue that slavery needs to be removed, as in, the whole 'creating new believers' needs to end, only that slavery as a means to creating new believers is ineffective and should be altered into other means.
Ofc so far, there are few signs that this is even considered by the higer-end Imperial authorities, but nothing that I've seen would indicate that they somehow 'know' that slavery is evil. That would go counter to everything they believe - slavery is for the slave's own good, nothing more, nothing less. If you were right about this Lallara then the entire Empire would be willfully lying to themselves and trillions of people would be very good at denying themselves and keeping this immense secret from everyone else. That simply can't be done.
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They are not lying to themselves, what Lallara points out (if I understand correctly ofc) is that they face a dilemna. Slavery is not inherently good, it is just necessary. Like the end justifying the means.
Anyway on another note, what people conveniently forget with the Amarr, and I can understand why considering that it was at best hinted until the new articles on the Amarrian Governement, is that firstly, the Amarr may seem monolithic, they actually are the unity of 5 royal vassals that all have quite varying traditions and rules, and a huge leeway on how they administrate their domain, which also means countless variations of scriptural interpretations compensated by the central influence of the TC, and countless different worlds with very different societies but all strongly held together by central tenets.
Secondly, and that is probably the most important part, the apostles, and then the TC, were the first to be able to change, rewrite, or retcon scriptures, and as far as I can read, the current scriptures barely look like the first ones. Those have been rewritten, reviewed, retconned so many times in history that it somewhat breaks the myth of the millenia unchanging Empire people like to picture. And then, considering that the Emperor has an absolute power (as long as the heirs agree or support him) to either change laws, scriptures, or even ignore scriptures when it suits him (<- yes, it's now PF), it means that the Empire can radically change constantly.
Examples are legion : Zaragram II (resulting in a partial retcon of all scriptures at least twice, the second time to fix the damage done), Heideran (Moral Reforms + Pax Amarria), Damius III (Ammatar Mandate without even reclaiming the Nefantar), etc.
So in any case, you can write more scriptures, especially core tenets that hardly change over time like the Book of Genesis, but people that state that scriptures are unchanging and based on tradition make me grin.
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They are not lying to themselves, what Lallara points out (if I understand correctly ofc) is that they face a dilemna. Slavery is not inherently good, it is just necessary. Like the end justifying the means.
I've taken note of everything else you wrote, but this is the part I'm trying to get across above; The Empire, from what I've been able to see, atl, don't consider slavery to be something bad. At all. As a matter of fact they view it as an inherently good thing. The Reformers either break the mold by thinking there might be something bad about slavery (therefore is should be modified to get the 'bad' out) or that it's perfectly good, but ineffective, and therefore should be optimized or replaced with another, more effective but equally 'good' option.
As far as I can see most people who claim otherwise are inserting their own IRL views on slavery onto the Amarr mindset, and I can't blame them - slavery goes completely counter to what most of use consider to be a 'good thing' - freedom. Slavery is the anti-thesis to freedom in many ways, so how can it possibly be good? It isn't, in our world.
But here's the kicker - EVE Online is a fictional universe where there exists and entire Empire of trillions who believe otherwise. They think slavery is a good thing. As I see it, part of good pro-amarr RP involves creating a good, organic impression that your toon truly believes this, unless he/she specifically DON'T as part of their character, and then your toon's alignment of 'pro-amarr' can be argued to begin with.
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As far as slavery being evil, let's take a step back and look into history. Romans had slaves, and didn't consider it evil. Greeks did so too. All european societies of the XVth to XIXth century had them too. And many more other examples exist. Why did this happen? Because slaves suffer a process that turns them from people to objects: romans and greeks considered the others barbarians who weren't as important as them; europeans considered slaves as lacking soul, so they didn't have rights nor will.
So, if we take a look into the Amarr, we see such a process exists as well. Slaves have souls, but they've spent them in the wrong way. They being so wrong makes them under-persons, not full people, because they aren't in the light of God. To an extent, they are barbarics like the romans thought of their slaves, and soul less like the europeans did. They are like intelligent monkeys to the Amarr: they can be taught with carrot and stick and eventually they will end up understanding the true nature of God. Then they will be full persons and accepted into the fold of society.
And why would they leave it? Sure, eating pork is an irrational taboo so its a matter of faith, but that is not the case with slavery: of all the attempts by the Amarr, only the Minmatarr were a failure, and them only to some extent, as the Ammatarr show. So, as far as the amarrian go, slavery actually works in uplifting "animals into people". So, obviously, it can't be bad! They are better now than they were! So, as Lallara pointed out, the Amarr haven't chosen this path out of ignorance (they are the first space-faring nation afterall, they are quite technologically and ideologically advanced in their own road), they chose it because it works, it gets the job done.
As for the Scriptures being unmovable, you already provided more than enough proofs that such a thing is not true. The Empire changes like every society to adapt itself to the needs of the times. Taking another real-world reference, the Catholic Church has reformed it's own dogma in every Concilium it has had until the last one, and not in minor details: they added books to the Bible, they decided that the Pope was infallible in matters of religion, that the Virgin was virgin, etc. This is because the Bible is a book written by human prophets trying to transfer the message God gave them. This doesn't happen in muslim religion, for example, because the Koran is a sacred text handed down directly by God, so it can't be changed and is subject to many rituals the Bible is not.
IIRC, the amarrian religion is closer to the Bible in this matter than the Koran, and so it is only natural that it adapts to new situations. Not only does it include new scientific discoveries (all science is part of the amarrian Scriptures), but it would probably revisit events and ideas from the past. The pork taboo would probably be thrown out once there is no reason for it, when the TC got into looking at it and seeing they need no longer to protect themselves from those bacteria. The whole Tetrimon story arc was very clear on this, as very different Scriptures (supposedly older and, thus, closer to the original truth) were brought to the Empire and could have had Empire-wide vast consequences. So all can change in the amarrian faith as long as enough time passes by, even in RL there have been dogmas added to the Catholic faith that didn't exist as first as such (the Virgin being virgin, for example), and dogmas are the most central element of any religion: those tenents that, if you don't share and believe deeply, you can't be considered a member of said religion.
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And why would they leave it? Sure, eating pork is an irrational taboo so its a matter of faith, but that is not the case with slavery: of all the attempts by the Amarr, only the Minmatarr were a failure, and them only to some extent, as the Ammatarr show.
Just playing devil's advocate here, but it may depend on what you call failure. The Ealur reclaiming is a failure for now and have yet to be enlighted properly, and the Ni-Kunni are neither a failure nor a success since they are out of slavery for the most part but still occupying the lower castes with no Holders on their own.
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Just playing devil's advocate here, but it may depend on what you call failure. The Ealur reclaiming is a failure for now and have yet to be enlighted properly, and the Ni-Kunni are neither a failure nor a success since they are out of slavery for the most part but still occupying the lower castes with no Holders on their own.
The Ealur have not rebelled, and the Ni-Kunni are now free. From the Imperial perspective, the second is a succesfull process of Enlightenment (the Amarr religion never said "you will all be True Amarr and equally rich and powerful"), and the first is one that isn't complete but is "progressing appropriately".
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Overall I see the points made by many of the Amarr roleplayers and basically agree. It's very very shaky ground to simply make up Scripture that later could be at odds with any PF CCP comes out with. Amarrian society is much more rigid than Minmatar society, so the method of creating our own content and seeing if it sticks that we have enjoyed probably won't work for the Amarr bloc. The best thing to do is probably hold ground to what few verses there are and contact the CCP fiction team with suggestions (if one is so inclined).
That being said, I see very frequent complaints about "importing IRL". In regards to the Amarrian religion, I agree with Synthia and gang. This is a fictional universe wherein the Amarr religion, even if it was at one point in the distant past related to real-life Abrahamic religions, is a completely different animal than religions we're familiar with in real life. Thousands upon thousands of years of isolation and fighting for survival after the collapse of the EVE Gate will do that. Note that there is no mention of the Amarrian god being merciful; from what I've been told by Amarr RPers the "merciful" role belongs to the Emperor.
When it comes to matters of science and the like, calling that "importing IRL" is just as shaky. I'm sorry, but fictional universe or not, New Eden is simply our own universe set in the future and in a far-away place. Gravitation still behaves exactly the same way. Mathematics still behaves in the same way. These are called "universal laws" for a reason. No amount of space-magic can do away with the fundamentals that we are aware of in real-life, and it seems ludicrous to think that the citizens of New Eden wouldn't have re-discovered and even surpassed our own IRL levels of scientific and mathematical knowledge. So using arguments based on logic and science against the Amarrian religion is not importing anything from real life. Using an argument that pokes holes in a Amarr-ified version of Christianity (essentially a straw-man argument) would, however, be importing from real life. A character saying "I disbelieve in the Amarrian god because Jesus never came back" would be invalid in the context of EVE, because that would be importing real life. A character saying "I do not believe in the Amarrian god because there is a lack of evidence for the existence of such a being" is not importing things from real life. If the people of New Eden somehow tossed out an understanding logic equal to or greater than our own, and yet developed computing systems, I would be greatly surprised.
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It is nice to see the proverbial ball rolling.
There was a reason that I used a reasonable benign taboo of pork that is present in both Islam and Judaism (I'm not sure do the animistic religions in the area have the same taboo.)
Mainly because it was quite harmless and used by two religions that are at odds at each other.
The logic was easy to explain and the issue itself is not 'good' nor 'evil'.
So lets extrapolate a bit.
We know that slavery exists, or the taboo of heathens being part of the Empire that have free will and can effect things.
As iterated in various slavery debates, the purpose for slavery is not purely economical.
Slavery in the Amarrian Empire is about religion and about cultural indoctrination of the heathens.
Basically a slave is a slave until it can think like an Amarrian and make choices like an Amarrian, therefore becoming a productive member of the Amarrian society.
Sorry to reiterate, but this is all about cultural indoctrination.
It is about meeting a culture and assimilating it into your own.
Because this is the Amarrian religion, they have the science to prove that it is the most efficient way of doing it.
Not the only one by far, meeting the Gallente and shifting the foreign diplomacy from 'Reclaiming by Sword' to 'Send them Missionaries' shows that the society in its whole is very adaptable to new situations.
Even Jamyls 'Flood the Republic with slaves that have already been indoctrinated into our religion' to force the Republic to actually recognize the Amarrian religion within their borders was brilliant.
I'm straying here a bit.
As I see it, an Amarrian can be unaware of what slavery is about and just do it for religious reasons. Or that Amarrian can be completely aware of all the data that has lead to the conclusion that slavery is the best way of converting certain kinds of people into the Amarrian religion.
I never said that this awareness of all the details in doing things within a religion is good or evil, I said it makes it worse.
I love Sandman comics, and when the Angels had taken over running Hell there was this soul being tortured by demon and that Angel approached him.
The angel says: "There will be no more wanton violence; no further suffering, inflicted without reason or explanation. We will hurt you. And we are not sorry. But we do not do it to punish you. We do it to redeem you. Because afterward, you'll be a better person … and because we love you. One day you'll thank us for it."
And the soul answers: "But you don't understand … that makes it worse. That makes it so much worse … "
Which made me whimper with glee when I realized it could be applied to slavery within the Empire.
Now, I need some brekkies.
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Just playing devil's advocate here, but it may depend on what you call failure. The Ealur reclaiming is a failure for now and have yet to be enlighted properly, and the Ni-Kunni are neither a failure nor a success since they are out of slavery for the most part but still occupying the lower castes with no Holders on their own.
The Ealur have not rebelled, and the Ni-Kunni are now free. From the Imperial perspective, the second is a succesfull process of Enlightenment (the Amarr religion never said "you will all be True Amarr and equally rich and powerful"), and the first is one that isn't complete but is "progressing appropriately".
Yeah, I agree.
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I think there are very good reasons not to have a specific quote in the Scriptures about homosexuality. Particularly one that condemns it.
1. It would draw negative attention from the press. The Amarr/Caldari being homophobes vs Gallente/Minmatar being accepting, esp. with the old joke about Gallente ship design. EVE would be portrayed in some sections of the press as being "Space gays in phallic ships fighting space homophobes".
2. It becomes a weapon to use OOC against people. "Oh, you're Amarr, you must be secretly homophobic IRL?" is what some persons would say.
3. Being a homophobe is not something that people want to do IC. How many Caldari homophobes do you know of ? even when the State has a track record for homophobia ?
4. Because people don't want to do that IC, others will challenge them about it IC, asking why they don't follow that particular piece of Scripture. This is just to undermine their position on the other Scriptures. "Oh, you don't follow that scripture? then why do you follow the others? why should anyone believe in your scripture if you don't?".
So I'd question the motivations of people that want a scripture quote about it. It would be an easy weapon to use against other players, at the cost of damaging the game's image.
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I strongly agree with Muck Raker.
If it's not already included in the Scriptures by CCP, I really do not want to see religious homophobia being shoehorned into EVE. These sorts of things are strongly offensive to me. I don't think it's appropriate for players to be inserting things of that specific sort into EVE lore if CCP has not.
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The way I see it Morwen had the right idea. It's much easier to build and grow a subculture that has an involuntary impact on just one person: your character. The moment you 'inflict' your ideas unwillingly on a larger group, no matter the size, you will be met with resistance. Allowing people to participate and interact with your ideas is the goal, and the opportunity shouldn't be lost simply because it was forced rather than offered. The beauty of a 'voluvals' is the interpretation of the symbolism could be entirely different depending on the outlook or perspective of a subculture in the Minmatar society. Much in the same way, the interpretation of 'scripture' could be as important as the scripture itself. You can do a lot with what you are given, with plenty of opportunity to skirt doctrine without blasphemy. Add a capsuleer's unique elite status and they can pretty much say and believe whatever they like.
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I think there are very good reasons not to have a specific quote in the Scriptures about homosexuality. Particularly one that condemns it.
1. It would draw negative attention from the press. The Amarr/Caldari being homophobes vs Gallente/Minmatar being accepting, esp. with the old joke about Gallente ship design. EVE would be portrayed in some sections of the press as being "Space gays in phallic ships fighting space homophobes".
2. It becomes a weapon to use OOC against people. "Oh, you're Amarr, you must be secretly homophobic IRL?" is what some persons would say.
3. Being a homophobe is not something that people want to do IC. How many Caldari homophobes do you know of ? even when the State has a track record for homophobia ?
4. Because people don't want to do that IC, others will challenge them about it IC, asking why they don't follow that particular piece of Scripture. This is just to undermine their position on the other Scriptures. "Oh, you don't follow that scripture? then why do you follow the others? why should anyone believe in your scripture if you don't?".
So I'd question the motivations of people that want a scripture quote about it. It would be an easy weapon to use against other players, at the cost of damaging the game's image.
as a real life member of the LGBT community, as weird as it sounds, I honestly wish there were more RP-homophobes. Just cause I think I'd have fun debating it IC. I do understand the issues that would open up because of it, and understand why the community would shy away from it, but I wish it was something we could be mature enough to handle. It is a rather red hot issue for a lot of people too, hence why there doesn't seem to be much space-racism outside of a few people.
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There's a crucial difference in people freely deciding to play homophobes and in a way forcing people into playing homophobes by adding some part of Scripture.
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Oh I agree. Its probably not something that should be in scripture, maybe if it was ambiguous enough that there could be internal debate RP about it. But there's at least already some support for RPing from that angle at least as a Caldari, and yet no one ever seems to use it, not even internally within their blocs.
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To be fair, the clues are relatively subtle, so I think many people simply miss them in the formative stages of their character. On top of that, and without value judgment or getting into the reasons why, the RP scene is basically Homoeroticism Central. Being hardline about it would mean your character'd be commiting social suicide without any real gain on their end.
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Amarrian characters usually have not given a rats ass about social suicide among those that they perceive to be less than them.
The problem is that some of them are homosexuals as well...
EDIT: Ninja!
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I think there are very good reasons not to have a specific quote in the Scriptures about homosexuality. Particularly one that condemns it.
1. It would draw negative attention from the press. The Amarr/Caldari being homophobes vs Gallente/Minmatar being accepting, esp. with the old joke about Gallente ship design. EVE would be portrayed in some sections of the press as being "Space gays in phallic ships fighting space homophobes".
2. It becomes a weapon to use OOC against people. "Oh, you're Amarr, you must be secretly homophobic IRL?" is what some persons would say.
3. Being a homophobe is not something that people want to do IC. How many Caldari homophobes do you know of ? even when the State has a track record for homophobia ?
4. Because people don't want to do that IC, others will challenge them about it IC, asking why they don't follow that particular piece of Scripture. This is just to undermine their position on the other Scriptures. "Oh, you don't follow that scripture? then why do you follow the others? why should anyone believe in your scripture if you don't?".
So I'd question the motivations of people that want a scripture quote about it. It would be an easy weapon to use against other players, at the cost of damaging the game's image.
I agree with this, even as someone who subscribes to Caldari/Amarr homophobia (not something I RP anyway). It is preferential to just leave it as an unwritten "truth" rather than have any hard canon or quote about it. Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, and Amarr are not RL identities; we can hate them as much as we want, really. Being gay, however, is a RL identity.
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Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, and Amarr are not RL identities; we can hate them as much as we want, really. Being gay, however, is a RL identity.
exactly.
someone says IC "you are a big disappointment to your mother, since you'll never have children".
For a number of people, that is going to sting OOC, it may even be a comment they've heard IRL. It's not going to be something to enjoy hearing ingame as well.
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Amarrian roleplayers usually have not given a rats ass about social suicide among those that they perceive to be less than them.
The problem is that some of them are homosexuals as well...
You think it's a problem that Amarrian roleplayers are homosexuals? :eek:
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Amarrian roleplayers usually have not given a rats ass about social suicide among those that they perceive to be less than them.
The problem is that some of them are homosexuals as well...
You think it's a problem that Amarrian roleplayers are homosexuals? :eek:
I believe our Unholy Zombie Empress personally overturned those particular portions of scripture frowning on homosexuality.
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Sorry. Space Homosexualty.
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Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, and Amarr are not RL identities; we can hate them as much as we want, really. Being gay, however, is a RL identity.
exactly.
someone says IC "you are a big disappointment to your mother, since you'll never have children".
For a number of people, that is going to sting OOC, it may even be a comment they've heard IRL. It's not going to be something to enjoy hearing ingame as well.
That's already the case with religion anyway.
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Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, and Amarr are not RL identities; we can hate them as much as we want, really. Being gay, however, is a RL identity.
exactly.
someone says IC "you are a big disappointment to your mother, since you'll never have children".
For a number of people, that is going to sting OOC, it may even be a comment they've heard IRL. It's not going to be something to enjoy hearing ingame as well.
That's already the case with religion anyway.
Hence this thread.
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There's something else too.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Terms_of_Service
You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies
You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.
So, there isn't a debate to be had. Persons attempting to rp a Caldari homophobe (evidence of which appears in the PF), are just one petition away from being permanently banned. A well worded petition that emphasises some things and de-emphasises others, and a GM that won't know the exact context of any remarks made, and someone gets the permanent ban.
So the whole thing is just not going to happen. There won't be any homophobes ever, beyond the occasional troll.
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There's something else too.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Terms_of_Service
You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies
You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.
So, there isn't a debate to be had. Persons attempting to rp a Caldari homophobe (evidence of which appears in the PF), are just one petition away from being permanently banned. A well worded petition that emphasises some things and de-emphasises others, and a GM that won't know the exact context of any remarks made, and someone gets the permanent ban.
So the whole thing is just not going to happen. There won't be any homophobes ever, beyond the occasional troll.
Fair enough. No one here wants to see people getting banned.
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Amarrian roleplayers usually have not given a rats ass about social suicide among those that they perceive to be less than them.
The problem is that some of them are homosexuals as well...
You think it's a problem that Amarrian roleplayers are homosexuals? :eek:
I think the implication is that making it a problem would be problematic for those people in particular, considering they'd effectively be pulling the rug out from under their own feet.
Stones, glass houses, etc.
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I don't know, but I really don't see a problem if the roleplayer is a homosexual. I'd think those problems you sketch arise for the character. And even there, I'm quite sure they wouldn't be "pulling the rug out from under their own feet", rather the rug would be pulled out from under their feet by someone else.