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[kalaratiri]

MOAR LAZORS

Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad

There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.

Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/

Thanks

[Elmund Egivand]

Firetail has the same layout and offers both shield and armor versions. I can see an armor tanked TD scram-range kiter annoying people.
Why would you say that laser/shield doesn't mix by definition? I'd have a harder time justifying using the utility high without the capless guns or cap hungry local rep, but that's everything I see.

(( and at least it's going to be better than the Dramiel :p ))

Yeah, but the Dramiel also has a falloff bonus, so I figured, why not just pull a MWD AC Wolf and do that annoying 'Me start applying dps at 20k before you land scram', except with the advantage of an AB once the scram hits.

[kalaratiri]

Justification

Alright, I'm back from a busy weekend of birthday and New Eden Open (If you didn't watch I highly recommend you do!).

First, I wish this stuff was going to Sisi soon so you all could actually get your hands on it, but unfortunately that won't be for a while still. I posted it rather early so that I could get reactions to these themes before investing more work in the other two classes, which has paid off really well for me so thanks for that.

So by now it seems like the Cruor has won as the most contentious with the Worm and Succubus following close behind.

There's actually several reasons why the Cruor ended up like this and I feel pretty good about all of them. The most important is that it's difficult to push the bonuses in a different direction without finding a lot of overlap with other ship(s) and/or getting far too powerful. For instance, if we dropped webs entirely and gave it some kind of range bonus for cap-warfare it ends up competing heavily with the Sentinel or Dragoon AND is likely too powerful. The current layout is very unique and while the range synergy isn't perfect, that certainly doesn't mean the ship isn't useful for powerful. On top of that, a big goal in this pass was to unify the themes across the entire faction line. You will see more of that when I can post the threads for cruisers and battleships, but wanting a set of bonuses that translates well to all three classes is valuable and this Cruor set does that well.

Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful. That certainly doesn't mean you are required to fit missiles and seeing Worms with Neutralizers rather than missiles wouldn't surprise me at all. Oh, and I wanted to mention that the Worm missile bonus absolutely DOES affect rockets.

At this point it seems that most people agree the new Sansha bonus is useful and powerful but some worry it may not fit Sansha flavor-wise. I'm not a huge expert on flavor of course, but from my perspective, Sansha really don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay. Using lasers and being aggressive jerks seems like it covers the majority of what we know about them and I see no reason that an afterburner bonus can't fit into their character. I would also hate to give up a good gameplay design in the name of flavor unless it was extremely disruptive. I hope you Sansha loyalists can integrate this into your idea of how Sansha work without too much discomfort

Again, thanks for the discussion, it's helped a lot with pinning down some details on these 5 ships as well as the cruisers and battleships, which you will hopefully get to see before too long.

Hope I answered at least some of your questions.

[Lyn Farel]

At this point it seems that most people agree the new Sansha bonus is useful and powerful but some worry it may not fit Sansha flavor-wise. I'm not a huge expert on flavor of course, but from my perspective, Sansha really don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay. Using lasers and being aggressive jerks seems like it covers the majority of what we know about them and I see no reason that an afterburner bonus can't fit into their character. I would also hate to give up a good gameplay design in the name of flavor unless it was extremely disruptive. I hope you Sansha loyalists can integrate this into your idea of how Sansha work without too much discomfort

Best way to tell "go -insert derogatory verb- yourselves lore aficionados".

[Katrina Oniseki]

As a lore aficionado, I have to partially agree with Rise. I don't think the AB bonus is out of place at all.

The reality here is that Ghost Hunter is really one of the only ones in that entire thread honestly saying it is, without also requesting some sort of incursion buff to replace it. While I respect his position as a Sansha lore expert, I have to disagree and say the lore question is not as clear cut as he puts it, and it still isn't good enough reason to remove the bonus even if it was.

The bonus change people are requesting in the thread is a massive tank bonus (shield HP or Shield resistance). EVe does not need more simple tank & gank ships. Sorry, but it doesn't. The AB bonus is a welcome breath of fresh air.

As quoted in the thread below, this sufficiently explains my opinion:

Sansha lore is so out of whack as is. The only thing that can be agreed on is that they are aggressive and there ships are supposed to be scary looking. Why aren't you crying for it to be armor tanked like the NPC Sansha? It is obviously you guys hating on the AB bonus are pushing for 2k DPS Incursion monsters but you are sacrificing the rest of the Sansha line to do so.

Trying to get the bonuses to make up perfectly with the racial skill they are tied to is both a waste of time and irrelevant. They serve only as a barrier for entry, there is no lore attached at all. Sansha Nation does not only recruit people with equal parts Amarr and Caldari experience. They take whomever.

[Lyn Farel]

Yeah, right, i'm not being honest. I'm famous for being a manipulative and lying bastard everywhere I go and definitely have no personal integrity at all.

Also, that Lucine Delacourt argument is just another ad-hominem ascribing motives to people that do not exist (at least for me).

I'm still maintaining that they should give that stupid AB bonus to angel ships that actually are famous for speed and skirmish, and find something else innovative enough for Sansha. They did it for blood raiders, why not for uncle Sansha ?

[Katrina Oniseki]

Yeah, right, i'm not being honest. I'm famous for being a manipulative and lying bastard everywhere I go and definitely have no personal integrity at all.

Also, that Lucine Delacourt argument is just another ad-hominem ascribing motives to people that do not exist (at least for me).

I'm still maintaining that they should give that stupid AB bonus to angel ships that actually are famous for speed and skirmish, and find something else innovative enough for Sansha. They did it for blood raiders, why not for uncle Sansha ?

Okay, granted, I didn't know you were posting in the thread. So many pages, so easy to miss a post. Anyways, I left out a word in my post. I was trying to say he's part of a select and small group of people pushing for a change based on actual lore, instead of jumping on the misunderstood bandwagon of perceived "lore" issues to demand an overpowered incursion ship.

I don't think the Lucien post qualifies as "ad hominem" at all.

I'd be okay with them putting it on Angel ships, but you know doing that would come with some heavy nerfs to Angels too.

[Elmund Egivand]

Sansha does have a smaller-scale operation of abducting crew off their ships, if the short story in one of the EON issues is correct (Skymother bless its soul). Having an AB bonus helps out for catching and spiriting away crew. ALOT. Without getting blown out of the sky in the process and having to worry about warp scramblers.

[PracticalTechnicality]

This is once again, not a problem with the bonuses (as I see it, they are fine and characterful for hit and run raiding vessels, which is an evolution in the sansha military doctrine to fit the realities of post-obliteration warfare on their part vs the CONCORD signatories), but with CCP's poor vetting of public communication. 

Instead of taking the five minutes to rationalise that speed and ferocity go hand in hand with piratical raiding and the claiming of crews and other persons from unwitting capsuleer vessels, they splurge out a 'f*** roleplayers rite?' 3edgy5me style comment that yet again appeals to the brain diseased common denominator.  It takes little effort and no pain to just say 'they are raiding ships and so there is a need for speed'.  Or even wholesale say 'Nation isn't a static entity that doesn't learn from the past, their old methods of lining up incredibly tough, damaging ships doesn't fit Kuvakei's new philosophy of mobile warfare, and so this is the bonus'. 

Bonus == good in my opinion, I am not going to turn down a Slicer on steroids.  Delivery, as usual, is bro-gamer BS from the middle tier devs of CCP, with the upper echelons thinking that HTFU is still a funny music video and that the mentality it embodies is good customer service to the entirety of their player base. 

This is one of those rare instances where they could have really communicated to everyone (not that everyone would be happy) on an even level.  But nope, lore-lovers get a healthy dose of bile dressed up as salad dressing in the hopes that enough mouth breathers will laugh that the collective groan of distaste from the community invested in the story of the game will be drowned out. 

[Elmund Egivand]

This is once again, not a problem with the bonuses (as I see it, they are fine and characterful for hit and run raiding vessels, which is an evolution in the sansha military doctrine to fit the realities of post-obliteration warfare on their part vs the CONCORD signatories), but with CCP's poor vetting of public communication. 

Instead of taking the five minutes to rationalise that speed and ferocity go hand in hand with piratical raiding and the claiming of crews and other persons from unwitting capsuleer vessels, they splurge out a 'f*** roleplayers rite?' 3edgy5me style comment that yet again appeals to the brain diseased common denominator.  It takes little effort and no pain to just say 'they are raiding ships and so there is a need for speed'.  Or even wholesale say 'Nation isn't a static entity that doesn't learn from the past, their old methods of lining up incredibly tough, damaging ships doesn't fit Kuvakei's new philosophy of mobile warfare, and so this is the bonus'. 

Bonus == good in my opinion, I am not going to turn down a Slicer on steroids.  Delivery, as usual, is bro-gamer BS from the middle tier devs of CCP, with the upper echelons thinking that HTFU is still a funny music video and that the mentality it embodies is good customer service to the entirety of their player base. 

This is one of those rare instances where they could have really communicated to everyone (not that everyone would be happy) on an even level.  But nope, lore-lovers get a healthy dose of bile dressed up as salad dressing in the hopes that enough mouth breathers will laugh that the collective groan of distaste from the community invested in the story of the game will be drowned out.

They already demonstrated their disrespect for the RP community in that multi-Cerberus CCP fleet.

[V. Gesakaarin]

There's always been an amusing irony in having spaceship nerds calling others spaceship nerds.

I guess some of the CCP Devs remind me of these guys. (NSFW)

[Silas Vitalia]

I don't think anyone should be surprised with out of left-field, non lore bonuses for the game ships.

Because when you think of Amarr you think of long range neuting drone boat geddons, right? The amarr are the drone race right?

It would make much more sense for the Angel ships to be getting speed bonuses, and the Sansha ships to do something new.  Take them in a completely new direction.  They should be something lore based that works around ewar and tactical mobility.  Some sort of insane micro jump drive or ewar effects reflecting their NPC ability to wormhole around and jam out entire systems.

The new blood raider nos bonus sounds very nice though, they seem to get the best end of the buffs with new nos/web bonuses.

[Samira Kernher]

Because when you think of Amarr you think of long range neuting drone boat geddons, right? The amarr are the drone race right?

Makes quite a lot of sense. Drones? Slaves. Neuting? Amarr warfare doctrines value cap energy, therefore their engineers would have naturally designed countermeasures to capacitor because for millenia their most threatening opponents were themselves (Holder/Heir conflicts, Moral Reforms, etc). Which Minmatar exploited during the Rebellion by designing ships that didn't rely on capacitor.

Sansha AB bonus on the other hand is less clear. Not necessarily because it's Sansha, but because it comes from the Amarr ranks. I would expect the Amarr ranks to give something involving actual Amarr tech--lasers, drones (slaves), armor, tracking disruption, or neuting. If we want something unique... I would say drone bonuses to ewar drones (making them actually useful), because it fits perfectly with the Amarr-Sansha relation: Amarr gave slaves to Nation, who then went on to augment them through advanced technology.

[Silas Vitalia]

Because when you think of Amarr you think of long range neuting drone boat geddons, right? The amarr are the drone race right?

Makes quite a lot of sense. Drones? Slaves. Neuting? Amarr warfare doctrines value cap energy, therefore their engineers would have naturally designed countermeasures to capacitor because for millenia their most threatening opponents were themselves (Holder/Heir conflicts, Moral Reforms, etc). Which Minmatar exploited during the Rebellion by designing ships that didn't rely on capacitor.

Sansha AB bonus on the other hand is less clear. Not necessarily because it's Sansha, but because it comes from the Amarr ranks. I would expect the Amarr ranks to give something involving actual Amarr tech--lasers, drones (slaves), armor, tracking disruption, or neuting. If we want something unique... I would say drone bonuses to ewar drones (making them actually useful), because it fits perfectly with the Amarr-Sansha relation: Amarr gave slaves to Nation, who then went on to augment them through advanced technology.

Drone tech has always been the Gallente cause celebre, because of their respect for human life and wanting to minimize casualties, etc.  The Amarr never really had a drone based culture.   While I thought the geddon role changes might be OP for gameplay I thought they were terrible for lore.

[Samira Kernher]

They have a slave-based culture, where lore consistently claims that there is a severe slave shortage, and in which it is socially inacceptable for certain classes to do manual labor. Sounds like a ripe environment for drone supplementation to me. They're still secondary to slave labor, but without the ability to replenish slave stocks through conquest it's either have the upper classes start doing more manual labor or start building your own mechanical slaves to supplement the organic ones. Latter sounds more likely.

Also, TCMCs, which combine both organic and inorganic servants into one.

Not to mention Amarr having been always established as a culture that favors cybernetic development and augmentation.