Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: kalaratiri on 25 Feb 2014, 11:06
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Woop woop, it's the sound of the police (no it isn't). (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4278937#post4278937)
Mornin!
Below you will find the first pass on pirate faction frigates ready for public review. It is our hope to deliver a rebalance on all 15 non-SOE pirate faction ships this summer(yay). Before I lay out the numbers for the frigates as they stand currently, I want to talk a bit about the themes for each faction, where those themes stand in relation to the frigates, and how that might connect to the cruisers and battleships down the line.
Sansha: Sansha needs help. The Nightmare is getting used, mostly as a PVE platform, but the Succubus and Phantasm are among the least used ships in EVE. That means we have an opportunity to try something new! The theme we are currently excited about revolves around afterburners. By giving a substantial boost to the velocity bonus from afterburners we create an extremely powerful frigate, a lot of new options for the cruiser, and affect the Nightmare the least, which matches well with the impact we want.
Blood: This line is very similar in some ways to Sansha. We have a battleship in the Bhaalgorn with a unique and valuable niche and then a frigate and cruiser that almost no one uses. The main difference with Blood is that, when it comes to energy warfare, you get very different roles at different sizes even with the same bonus, so it can be difficult to find a way to tie all three together. What we are proposing at the moment is to change the web effectiveness bonus to web range for the Cruor and Ashimmu(which is a broadly useful bonus AND doesn't overlap with Serpentis AND matches the Bhaalgorn) and then to give all three "old NOS", that is, Energy Vampires would continue to leech from your target until their cap reaches zero, regardless of your own cap level. This would be role bonus functionality that stacks on top of the old bonus to energy turret damage as well as the NOS/Neut effectiveness bonus from Amarr. This should offer a lot of new and powerful options to Blood Raiders without having any negative impact on the Bhaalgorn's current role.
Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships. As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.
Serpentis: One of the strongest and most fun pirate factions at the moment is certainly Serpentis. We didn't want to make major changes in theme, but there is a big conversation that can be had about the web strength bonus. As it stands, at 10% per level, it is one of the strongest bonuses in the game and in the right situation it can feel downright broken. For now, I intend to leave it at full strength. While it is very powerful, I believe it delivers on the excitement and special feel that pirate factions ought to provide. If you disagree and feel that this bonus is having a negative impact on your gameplay please let us know and we can continue to weigh the pros and cons here as this balance pass continues.
Angel: And last we have the most popular pirate faction, which is doing pretty well at all three sizes. The biggest problem Angels face is direct competition with other Minmatar ships and a light case of OP. The Dramiel isn't getting any big changes and the other two Angel ships probably won't see any huge change in style or function either, but wait for later threads to discuss their specifics please.
For the frigs we are in a situation where there are two performing well (Dramiel and Daredevil) and 3 that are virtually unused. That means the buffs for those 3 (Succubus, Cruor, Worm) come in the form of pretty heavy attribute gains as well as re-design in terms of bonuses. In general this class is getting some updates to bring them into the post-tiericide world so things like base speed and lock range will get tweaks across the board.
Anyway, here you go, let us know what you think:
(note: it's possible that there's typos or other small errors in these stat lists so if you notice something really odd just let me know)
SUCCUBUS
Amarr Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)
Caldari Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
Role Bonus:
125% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage (was 100% energy turret damage)
Slot layout: 3H(-1), 4M, 3L(+1); 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 44 PWG(-14), 170 CPU(-5)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650(+41) / 550(+6) / 540(+23)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450(+15) / 210000 (-24375) / 2.14 (+.09)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340(+53) / 3.5(-.35) / 965000 / 4.68s(-.4)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32km / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 13
Signature radius: 33(+2)
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CRUOR
Amarr Frigate Bonus:
15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness
Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)
Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
note: Energy Vampires operate as though your capacitor is empty (this wording is work in progress)
Slot layout: 4H, 3M, 4L(+1); 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 57 PWG, 150 CPU(+13)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-103) / 740(+83) / 580(-2)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 470 / 205000 (-29375) / 2.24 (+.23)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330(+22) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(+5) / 5(+5)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 33km(+8km) / 760 / 6
Sensor strength: 12
Signature radius: 35
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WORM
Gallente Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus:
300% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(-15) / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 15
Signature radius: 40
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DAREDEVIL
Gallente Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret falloff
Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness
Role Bonus:
200% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 3M, 4L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 35 PWG, 145 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 530(-7) / 560(-22) / 630(-27)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 390(-5) / 230000 (-4375) / 1.69 (+.01)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 385(+1) / 3.2(-.02) / 823000 / 3.65s(-.02)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 25km(+5km) / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 12(-1)
Signature radius: 35
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DRAMIEL
Gallente Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret tracking speed
Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to Small Projectile Turret falloff
Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage
Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 2 turrets, 1 launchers
Fittings: 37 PWG, 133 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 590(+7) / 590(+8) / 520(+3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 370(+5) / 208000(-26375) / 1.77(+.22)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 460 / 3.1(-.02) / 950000 / 4.08s(-.02)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15 / 20
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 28km(+3km) / 750 / 5
Sensor strength: 11
Signature radius: 30(-2)
*drools*
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Six months and that's... all ? Well ok then.
- Sansha : lolwut ? Sansha masters of speed ? Why not just giving that kind of bonus to angels to differentiate them from their Minmatar competitors ? They even complain about that below while doing nothing about it.
- Blooders : Sounds rather awesome as an idea. Probably the only noteworthy thing here.
- Guristas : lolwut ?
- Serpentis : fine as it is.
- Angel : why doing nothing when cynabal = vaga and firetail = dramiel in their roles ?
:bash:
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why can't the daredeavil be a black tristan :cry:
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Mean while, no one is surprised the Succubus continues to be complete crap. :psyccp:
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Mean while, no one is surprised the Succubus continues to be complete crap. :psyccp:
1.8km/s AB before links/heat/snakes.
Rawr.
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And now the Dramiel goes the way of the Rifter.
Angel Cartel gets to be bland when all the others get to be interesting.
Also Cruor2014 Wormpremacy
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And now the Dramiel goes the way of the Rifter.
Angel Cartel gets to be bland when all the others get to be interesting.
Also Cruor2014 Wormpremacy
To be fair, the Dramiel spent more than its allotted time as the FOTMWTFPWNmobile, so seeing the other, historically awful, pirate frigates coming into competition with it is not something I consider to be a bad thing.
Also, Worm bonus means you can fit a single Valkyrie in it and have a drone with around 4k ehp. Because drones deserve as big a tank as T1 frigates.
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I just came a little.
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Also, Worm bonus means you can fit a single Valkyrie in it and have a drone with around 4k ehp. Because drones deserve as big a tank as T1 frigates.
> *Gallente Frigate*
> *Train to Level 1 Now*
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Looks interesting, overall. Still expensive for what they bring to the table, but at least the non-DD/dramiel ships are now having an equal level of threat. For my tastes/gameplay they'll likely remain too expensive, as I'm fond of suicide ramming 5m kestrels or 6m breachers into people's orifices. Economical, green and quite a cheap lay!
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And now the Dramiel goes the way of the Rifter.
Angel Cartel gets to be bland when all the others get to be interesting.
Also Cruor2014 Wormpremacy
To be fair, the Dramiel spent more than its allotted time as the FOTMWTFPWNmobile, so seeing the other, historically awful, pirate frigates coming into competition with it is not something I consider to be a bad thing.
Also, Worm bonus means you can fit a single Valkyrie in it and have a drone with around 4k ehp. Because drones deserve as big a tank as T1 frigates.
Dramiel really suffers now from what I see. It doesn't bring much to the table. Dualprop solo bastard then. Only thing to do with it. Avoid the Cruor.
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Mean while, no one is surprised the Succubus continues to be complete crap. :psyccp:
1.8km/s AB before links/heat/snakes.
Rawr.
Eh its crap because Shield tanking laser ships dont work :(
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Firetail has the same layout and offers both shield and armor versions. I can see an armor tanked TD scram-range kiter annoying people.
Why would you say that laser/shield doesn't mix by definition? I'd have a harder time justifying using the utility high without the capless guns or cap hungry local rep, but that's everything I see.
(( and at least it's going to be better than the Dramiel :p ))
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Oh the potential hilarity of a 10MN AB Succubus. :lol:
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Oh the potential hilarity of a 10MN AB Succubus. :lol:
I'm also seeing the possibility of low sig, plated, brawling, AB Succubus fleets.
Tiny, spiky AHACs :3
With Tracking disruptors!
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MOAR LAZORS (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4285053#post4285053)
Hi guys sorry for the space between posts, I wasn't in the office today, and I'm still not Sad
There's two things I can say, one is that we are going to change the Succubus role bonus damage from 125% to 150% to keep the damage potential the same as before. Thanks someone in the thread for pointing that out.
Second, I'll try to put together a longer post tomorrow addressing the conversations around the missile bonus on the Worm and the web bonus on the Cruor. For now I have to leave you with just this though =/
Thanks
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Firetail has the same layout and offers both shield and armor versions. I can see an armor tanked TD scram-range kiter annoying people.
Why would you say that laser/shield doesn't mix by definition? I'd have a harder time justifying using the utility high without the capless guns or cap hungry local rep, but that's everything I see.
(( and at least it's going to be better than the Dramiel :p ))
Yeah, but the Dramiel also has a falloff bonus, so I figured, why not just pull a MWD AC Wolf and do that annoying 'Me start applying dps at 20k before you land scram', except with the advantage of an AB once the scram hits.
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Justification (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4305932#post4305932)
Alright, I'm back from a busy weekend of birthday and New Eden Open (If you didn't watch I highly recommend you do!).
First, I wish this stuff was going to Sisi soon so you all could actually get your hands on it, but unfortunately that won't be for a while still. I posted it rather early so that I could get reactions to these themes before investing more work in the other two classes, which has paid off really well for me so thanks for that.
So by now it seems like the Cruor has won as the most contentious with the Worm and Succubus following close behind.
There's actually several reasons why the Cruor ended up like this and I feel pretty good about all of them. The most important is that it's difficult to push the bonuses in a different direction without finding a lot of overlap with other ship(s) and/or getting far too powerful. For instance, if we dropped webs entirely and gave it some kind of range bonus for cap-warfare it ends up competing heavily with the Sentinel or Dragoon AND is likely too powerful. The current layout is very unique and while the range synergy isn't perfect, that certainly doesn't mean the ship isn't useful for powerful. On top of that, a big goal in this pass was to unify the themes across the entire faction line. You will see more of that when I can post the threads for cruisers and battleships, but wanting a set of bonuses that translates well to all three classes is valuable and this Cruor set does that well.
Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful. That certainly doesn't mean you are required to fit missiles and seeing Worms with Neutralizers rather than missiles wouldn't surprise me at all. Oh, and I wanted to mention that the Worm missile bonus absolutely DOES affect rockets.
At this point it seems that most people agree the new Sansha bonus is useful and powerful but some worry it may not fit Sansha flavor-wise. I'm not a huge expert on flavor of course, but from my perspective, Sansha really don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay. Using lasers and being aggressive jerks seems like it covers the majority of what we know about them and I see no reason that an afterburner bonus can't fit into their character. I would also hate to give up a good gameplay design in the name of flavor unless it was extremely disruptive. I hope you Sansha loyalists can integrate this into your idea of how Sansha work without too much discomfort :)
Again, thanks for the discussion, it's helped a lot with pinning down some details on these 5 ships as well as the cruisers and battleships, which you will hopefully get to see before too long.
Hope I answered at least some of your questions.
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At this point it seems that most people agree the new Sansha bonus is useful and powerful but some worry it may not fit Sansha flavor-wise. I'm not a huge expert on flavor of course, but from my perspective, Sansha really don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay. Using lasers and being aggressive jerks seems like it covers the majority of what we know about them and I see no reason that an afterburner bonus can't fit into their character. I would also hate to give up a good gameplay design in the name of flavor unless it was extremely disruptive. I hope you Sansha loyalists can integrate this into your idea of how Sansha work without too much discomfort :)
Best way to tell "go -insert derogatory verb- yourselves lore aficionados".
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As a lore aficionado, I have to partially agree with Rise. I don't think the AB bonus is out of place at all.
The reality here is that Ghost Hunter is really one of the only ones in that entire thread honestly saying it is, without also requesting some sort of incursion buff to replace it. While I respect his position as a Sansha lore expert, I have to disagree and say the lore question is not as clear cut as he puts it, and it still isn't good enough reason to remove the bonus even if it was.
The bonus change people are requesting in the thread is a massive tank bonus (shield HP or Shield resistance). EVe does not need more simple tank & gank ships. Sorry, but it doesn't. The AB bonus is a welcome breath of fresh air.
As quoted in the thread below, this sufficiently explains my opinion:
Sansha lore is so out of whack as is. The only thing that can be agreed on is that they are aggressive and there ships are supposed to be scary looking. Why aren't you crying for it to be armor tanked like the NPC Sansha? It is obviously you guys hating on the AB bonus are pushing for 2k DPS Incursion monsters but you are sacrificing the rest of the Sansha line to do so.
Trying to get the bonuses to make up perfectly with the racial skill they are tied to is both a waste of time and irrelevant. They serve only as a barrier for entry, there is no lore attached at all. Sansha Nation does not only recruit people with equal parts Amarr and Caldari experience. They take whomever.
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Yeah, right, i'm not being honest. I'm famous for being a manipulative and lying bastard everywhere I go and definitely have no personal integrity at all.
Also, that Lucine Delacourt argument is just another ad-hominem ascribing motives to people that do not exist (at least for me).
I'm still maintaining that they should give that stupid AB bonus to angel ships that actually are famous for speed and skirmish, and find something else innovative enough for Sansha. They did it for blood raiders, why not for uncle Sansha ?
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Yeah, right, i'm not being honest. I'm famous for being a manipulative and lying bastard everywhere I go and definitely have no personal integrity at all.
Also, that Lucine Delacourt argument is just another ad-hominem ascribing motives to people that do not exist (at least for me).
I'm still maintaining that they should give that stupid AB bonus to angel ships that actually are famous for speed and skirmish, and find something else innovative enough for Sansha. They did it for blood raiders, why not for uncle Sansha ?
Okay, granted, I didn't know you were posting in the thread. So many pages, so easy to miss a post. Anyways, I left out a word in my post. I was trying to say he's part of a select and small group of people pushing for a change based on actual lore, instead of jumping on the misunderstood bandwagon of perceived "lore" issues to demand an overpowered incursion ship.
I don't think the Lucien post qualifies as "ad hominem" at all.
I'd be okay with them putting it on Angel ships, but you know doing that would come with some heavy nerfs to Angels too.
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Sansha does have a smaller-scale operation of abducting crew off their ships, if the short story in one of the EON issues is correct (Skymother bless its soul). Having an AB bonus helps out for catching and spiriting away crew. ALOT. Without getting blown out of the sky in the process and having to worry about warp scramblers.
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This is once again, not a problem with the bonuses (as I see it, they are fine and characterful for hit and run raiding vessels, which is an evolution in the sansha military doctrine to fit the realities of post-obliteration warfare on their part vs the CONCORD signatories), but with CCP's poor vetting of public communication.
Instead of taking the five minutes to rationalise that speed and ferocity go hand in hand with piratical raiding and the claiming of crews and other persons from unwitting capsuleer vessels, they splurge out a 'f*** roleplayers rite?' 3edgy5me style comment that yet again appeals to the brain diseased common denominator. It takes little effort and no pain to just say 'they are raiding ships and so there is a need for speed'. Or even wholesale say 'Nation isn't a static entity that doesn't learn from the past, their old methods of lining up incredibly tough, damaging ships doesn't fit Kuvakei's new philosophy of mobile warfare, and so this is the bonus'.
Bonus == good in my opinion, I am not going to turn down a Slicer on steroids. Delivery, as usual, is bro-gamer BS from the middle tier devs of CCP, with the upper echelons thinking that HTFU is still a funny music video and that the mentality it embodies is good customer service to the entirety of their player base.
This is one of those rare instances where they could have really communicated to everyone (not that everyone would be happy) on an even level. But nope, lore-lovers get a healthy dose of bile dressed up as salad dressing in the hopes that enough mouth breathers will laugh that the collective groan of distaste from the community invested in the story of the game will be drowned out.
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This is once again, not a problem with the bonuses (as I see it, they are fine and characterful for hit and run raiding vessels, which is an evolution in the sansha military doctrine to fit the realities of post-obliteration warfare on their part vs the CONCORD signatories), but with CCP's poor vetting of public communication.
Instead of taking the five minutes to rationalise that speed and ferocity go hand in hand with piratical raiding and the claiming of crews and other persons from unwitting capsuleer vessels, they splurge out a 'f*** roleplayers rite?' 3edgy5me style comment that yet again appeals to the brain diseased common denominator. It takes little effort and no pain to just say 'they are raiding ships and so there is a need for speed'. Or even wholesale say 'Nation isn't a static entity that doesn't learn from the past, their old methods of lining up incredibly tough, damaging ships doesn't fit Kuvakei's new philosophy of mobile warfare, and so this is the bonus'.
Bonus == good in my opinion, I am not going to turn down a Slicer on steroids. Delivery, as usual, is bro-gamer BS from the middle tier devs of CCP, with the upper echelons thinking that HTFU is still a funny music video and that the mentality it embodies is good customer service to the entirety of their player base.
This is one of those rare instances where they could have really communicated to everyone (not that everyone would be happy) on an even level. But nope, lore-lovers get a healthy dose of bile dressed up as salad dressing in the hopes that enough mouth breathers will laugh that the collective groan of distaste from the community invested in the story of the game will be drowned out.
They already demonstrated their disrespect for the RP community in that multi-Cerberus CCP fleet.
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There's always been an amusing irony in having spaceship nerds calling others spaceship nerds.
I guess some of the CCP Devs remind me of these guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-i-GrIKJgY). (NSFW)
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I don't think anyone should be surprised with out of left-field, non lore bonuses for the game ships.
Because when you think of Amarr you think of long range neuting drone boat geddons, right? The amarr are the drone race right?
It would make much more sense for the Angel ships to be getting speed bonuses, and the Sansha ships to do something new. Take them in a completely new direction. They should be something lore based that works around ewar and tactical mobility. Some sort of insane micro jump drive or ewar effects reflecting their NPC ability to wormhole around and jam out entire systems.
The new blood raider nos bonus sounds very nice though, they seem to get the best end of the buffs with new nos/web bonuses.
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Because when you think of Amarr you think of long range neuting drone boat geddons, right? The amarr are the drone race right?
Makes quite a lot of sense. Drones? Slaves. Neuting? Amarr warfare doctrines value cap energy, therefore their engineers would have naturally designed countermeasures to capacitor because for millenia their most threatening opponents were themselves (Holder/Heir conflicts, Moral Reforms, etc). Which Minmatar exploited during the Rebellion by designing ships that didn't rely on capacitor.
Sansha AB bonus on the other hand is less clear. Not necessarily because it's Sansha, but because it comes from the Amarr ranks. I would expect the Amarr ranks to give something involving actual Amarr tech--lasers, drones (slaves), armor, tracking disruption, or neuting. If we want something unique... I would say drone bonuses to ewar drones (making them actually useful), because it fits perfectly with the Amarr-Sansha relation: Amarr gave slaves to Nation, who then went on to augment them through advanced technology.
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Because when you think of Amarr you think of long range neuting drone boat geddons, right? The amarr are the drone race right?
Makes quite a lot of sense. Drones? Slaves. Neuting? Amarr warfare doctrines value cap energy, therefore their engineers would have naturally designed countermeasures to capacitor because for millenia their most threatening opponents were themselves (Holder/Heir conflicts, Moral Reforms, etc). Which Minmatar exploited during the Rebellion by designing ships that didn't rely on capacitor.
Sansha AB bonus on the other hand is less clear. Not necessarily because it's Sansha, but because it comes from the Amarr ranks. I would expect the Amarr ranks to give something involving actual Amarr tech--lasers, drones (slaves), armor, tracking disruption, or neuting. If we want something unique... I would say drone bonuses to ewar drones (making them actually useful), because it fits perfectly with the Amarr-Sansha relation: Amarr gave slaves to Nation, who then went on to augment them through advanced technology.
Drone tech has always been the Gallente cause celebre, because of their respect for human life and wanting to minimize casualties, etc. The Amarr never really had a drone based culture. While I thought the geddon role changes might be OP for gameplay I thought they were terrible for lore.
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They have a slave-based culture, where lore consistently claims that there is a severe slave shortage, and in which it is socially inacceptable for certain classes to do manual labor. Sounds like a ripe environment for drone supplementation to me. They're still secondary to slave labor, but without the ability to replenish slave stocks through conquest it's either have the upper classes start doing more manual labor or start building your own mechanical slaves to supplement the organic ones. Latter sounds more likely.
Also, TCMCs, which combine both organic and inorganic servants into one.
Not to mention Amarr having been always established as a culture that favors cybernetic development and augmentation.
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They have a slave-based culture, where lore consistently claims that there is a severe slave shortage, and in which it is socially inacceptable for certain classes to do manual labor. Sounds like a ripe environment for drone supplementation to me. They're still secondary to slave labor, but without the ability to replenish slave stocks through conquest it's either have the upper classes start doing more manual labor or start building your own mechanical slaves to supplement the organic ones. Latter sounds more likely.
Also, TCMCs, which combine both organic and inorganic servants into one.
Not to mention Amarr having been always established as a culture that favors cybernetic development and augmentation.
Combat drones were invented by the Gallente during the Gallente-Caldari War, no other race had them. I think the Armageddon class was in service for decades and decades as laser platforms. It's not to say that the Amarr might not decide refit their entire line of laser attack battleships to be drone specialists in the modern capsuleer era, it's just that this seems out of tune for their most common battleships of the line and their typical MO.
I'm not following with cyber things and ship drones?
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I consider cybernetics and drones and drones to be about the same area of study. Augmenting an organic creature with machinery or giving organic qualities to machines. Advancing one pairs well with the other, in my mind.
And yes, geddons were used as laser platforms. The new description for them describes it as a recent refitting. And I would imagine they aren't doing that for every geddon, just the most recent ones. All the NPC ones you see, for example, continue to operate as laser platforms--presumably because they haven't been refit. Capsuleer vessels, of course, are the most modern ships of their type, and so are the ones with all the latest advancements in technology and design. Amarr moving towards drone doctrines is a very logical development in the modern theatre, as it allows them to overcome some of their big weaknesses (over reliance on cap, EM/Therm, and slow speed), so it makes perfect sense for them to start doing this on an IC level. And like I said, drones are basically robotic slaves, which fits well with the Amarr theme.
Either way, I still think the Amarr ranks for Sansha ships should give something related to Amarr technology. I like the drone thing because I like to compare drones to slaves and bonuses to ewar drones would be pretty unique, but there's plenty of other options. AB just doesn't seem fitting at all.
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I'm with Silas. We have only grown accustomed to Amarr being the second drone race because they had the arbitrator (and its variants), and then got the sentinel on the same model, and to complete the loop, they got recently the battleship as well. I'm not as much as annoyed by that because of :arbitrator: but when you look at dronebays, except for amarr droneboats, they are the third race after the minmatar.
But seriously, the Amarr navy is far from constituted only by slaves... Only a part of their ships are slave manned, and slaves are certainly not going to be let at important positions in navy ships.
Also, I think it is a fallacy to consider that because there is somehow a shortage of slaves or crew or whatever, that drones have to be used instead. They can perfectly well fire automated turrets instead, which is what the Amarr do well, being the second more "crew light" civilisation after the gallente.
As for the Armageddon having always been a droneboat, I would say that's patently a slippery slope. It is better imo to consider that it went through a complete retrofitting recently by the navy as a modernization program, as it might happen for most ships anyway to explain balance changes every patch.
EDIT : I was also thinking along the lines of new heavy EW direction to sansha ships. Like double/triple ewar with the already good chunk of med slots they have, which would give them some kind of unique flavour of armor tank with racks of EW. Or maybe a mix of EW with anti missile TDs, or ECM bursts bonuses for pure brawling fights ? Silas idea around MJDs is nice too. MJDs + ECM burst combos ? TD bursts ? :P
Also, I didnt know that ECM drones became obsolete... ? When I still used to pvp, they were kindof OP and everyone was complaining about them...
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Also, I think it is a fallacy to consider that because there is somehow a shortage of slaves or crew or whatever, that drones have to be used instead. They can perfectly well fire automated turrets instead, which is what the Amarr do well, being the second more "crew light" civilisation after the gallente.
Many, many sources say that the Amarr are having slave shortages, from news articles years ago.
As for the Armageddon having always been a droneboat, I would say that's patently a slippery slope. It is better imo to consider that it went through a complete retrofitting recently by the navy as a modernization program, as it might happen for most ships anyway to explain balance changes every patch.
No one said it's always been one. The updated description says it's a modern retrofit.
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Also, I didnt know that ECM drones became obsolete... ? When I still used to pvp, they were kindof OP and everyone was complaining about them...
ECM drones are okay, when they work. The other ewar drones are not. The latter are what I was thinking would be neat to get bonused. Web drones, td drones, neut drones, damp drones, etc.
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Also, I think it is a fallacy to consider that because there is somehow a shortage of slaves or crew or whatever, that drones have to be used instead. They can perfectly well fire automated turrets instead, which is what the Amarr do well, being the second more "crew light" civilisation after the gallente.
Many, many sources say that the Amarr are having slave shortages, from news articles years ago.
Yes I never said otherwise...
As for the Armageddon having always been a droneboat, I would say that's patently a slippery slope. It is better imo to consider that it went through a complete retrofitting recently by the navy as a modernization program, as it might happen for most ships anyway to explain balance changes every patch.
No one said it's always been one. The updated description says it's a modern retrofit.
I was speaking to Silas.
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Sansha boats with something like shield HP bonus and huge bonus to all EWAR drones sounds very cool to me. Make them pure utility-type ships; expensive but very nasty to have on field?
It would open up a whole new range of gameplay because right now you never see things like neut drones or web drones or very much use of the other ones.
It would let the players come up with the best ewar drone usages with a blanket bonus on the ship line
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It would open up a whole new range of gameplay because right now you never see things like neut drones or web drones or very much use of the other ones.
That'd be great. But they'd have to fix EW drones (and EW in general) for that to be effective. EW drones are pretty shit, even EC drones have limited use these days due to the new skills and the ECCM implants. Web, damp, tracking disruption drones all suffer heavily due to stacking penalties being applied to them.
If we're talking about fitting in with traditional lore-fitting changes. They should change Sansha back to armour, I miss the thought of flying an all Centi/True Sansha ship. But civilisations change and adapt. The Cartel has always had a bug in it's bonnet for Nation (there was a live event when I was in Coreli where Cartel dreads were being staged for an invasion into Nation space, World's Collide mission pits Nation and Cartel against each other iirc). Perhaps the new changes reflect the need to be able to deal with fast moving ships that has typically given them the biggest threat?
Doctrines change, gotta look to the future ;)
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I was thinking the sansha bonuses would be stacked to specifically make ewar drones useful, but yea
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Regarding the Armageddon:
It might either be a refit, or it's a capsuleer-version-thing, and the ship of the line remains the navy geddon?
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Regarding the Armageddon:
It might either be a refit, or it's a capsuleer-version-thing, and the ship of the line remains the navy geddon?
This seems likely for the actual Navy. I wouldn't be surprised if the refit player geddons are being treated like a prototype or trial run, though.
If we make good use of them, why wouldn't the Navy take the design back and apply it to a number of their own ships?
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Cruor gets a nice little change (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4617660#post4617660) that may finally make it not terrible.
Hey guys
Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.
What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.
We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).
Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.
Let me know what you think.
OP updated with new stats.