Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 28 Jun 2010, 09:34
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[15:28:48] xxAmelia Kondraki > Security is very lax here. For instance, I could simply infect a memetic kill agent into my avatar, and anyone looking at it would suffer irrepebale brain damage.
[15:28:55] Amelia Kondraki > Would you like me to show you?
[15:31:36] Amelia Kondraki > So if I turn my hand into a claw, and you can all see it as a claw, then I can just as easily turn it into a memetic agent. The effect is purely visual. you merely need to see it to be effected by it. It is not a hostile code.
In addition, somebody set up a "bomb" in the Summit. So I decided to lolgrief it.
[15:22:34] Seriphyn Inhonores > /emote appears and sits, yawning, "Somebody set up us the bomb?"
[15:23:11] Mouse Nell > /emote isolates the various relay functions within the databomb > We get signal.
[15:23:43] Seriphyn Inhonores > /emote looks to the databomb, "Main screen, turn on!" he coughs, "Turn on the main screen, I mean"
[15:24:03] Amelia Kondraki > /emote looks at her hands, willing them to turn into claws, then back to hands* Interesting isn't it?
[15:24:09] Seriphyn Inhonores > /emote looks to Amelia, "It's you!"
[15:24:48] Amelia Kondraki > Indeed Mr. Inhonores, it is me.
[15:25:12] Seriphyn Inhonores > What you say?
[15:25:59] Mouse Nell > /emote reaches into the center of the swirling datastreams and plucks out a single fractal of code. Mouse smiles as the diffused bomb melts into various constituent procols and answer lines. > all done. Harmless now.
[15:26:19] Seriphyn Inhonores > /emote holds up his fist in small victory, "For great justice"
[15:27:54] Aya Vore > a small message displays on the bomb's screen before powering off * > "You have no chance to survive make your time.... HA... Ha.... ha..... ...a..... ...."
[15:31:23] Kyle Kehrer > /emote appears, except in a combat grade Federation MTAC Siege Variant. The machine taking up a good portion of the room.
The Summit has seriously gone rapidly downhill since it was turned into a physical environment. Right now, I am trying to IC tell this person that you cannot threaten other characters via the Summit.
For all that is holy, can someone please who has op power change it back to how it was?
It really is dreadful.
EDIT
[15:35:46] Amelia Kondraki > /emote blinks her avatar, flashing it to a low grade memetic trigger, the swirling complex pattern of lines pull in the mind, drawing it down into the complex fractal, down deeper deeper, darker and darker, less thought, less fee--The image blinks away*
[15:36:21] Seriphyn Inhonores > /emote watches it. Nothing happens to him. Nor should anything happen to anyone else.
[15:36:47] Amelia Kondraki > ((uh yeah it should, stop being a bitch, it makes perfect sense))
[15:36:55] Seriphyn Inhonores > ((no. you are godmodding))
[15:37:31] Ld Disablez > ((ld disablez kills everyone in the room with his superpowers. See, you cannot do that))
[15:38:07] Amelia Kondraki > ((memetic kill agents are a proven tech in eve, everyone knows they exist, they work, its in the PF, which means a memetic agent would work, a memetic agent is just an image that fistfucks your brain, its hard to keep it out))
[15:38:42] Seriphyn Inhonores > ((No. How dare you, as a 2 hour old character, come in here, and godmod against someone who has been in this channel for 2 years))
[15:39:38] Amelia Kondraki > ((because your fat, also, there is no reason for it not to work, which means its godmodding on your part to make it not work))
[15:39:48] Kerrin Jem > ((He has a point... to control the actions of another character is the hight of role playing rudeness. Especially in such a way that abuses both the nature of this channel and the foundations of the game))
[15:39:48] Kerrin Jem > ((He has a point... to control the actions of another character is the hight of role playing rudeness. Especially in such a way that abuses both the nature of this channel and the foundations of the game))
[15:40:07] Aya Vore > ((Seri, I don't see you doing anything with the channel. Feel free to ban me. But it doesn't change the fact that people are in here, looking to have fun, and there's nothing to have fun about.))
[15:40:14] Kerrin Jem > ((Seriphyn has full right to decide whether or not your attack works... its your fault for trying it if it is so unreasonable))
[15:40:37] Ld Disablez > ((mmm shouldn't we talk this in ooc anyway...))
[15:40:40] Seriphyn Inhonores > ((okay, whoever is not in "OOC" chat channel, please join there now. the conversation will carry on there))
[15:40:42] Aya Vore > ((Seri wasn't on, nor was anyone else but a few people who wanted to have fun))
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But you didn't move every zig...
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You forgot to mention the person who planted the 'bomb' is also a majority shareholder in Carthum Conglomerate. :D
I wish I was that awesome.
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As I said elsewhere: The VR is not related to the problem.
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It was politicized IC.
That act is now coming home to roost.
However, I do abhor the god-moding on display there. (For once an actual instance of something that truly is god-moding, rather than something that is not god-moding but for OOC argumentation is erroneously described as such, I might add.)
Cos
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/me goes about RPing through gameplay.
This reflects fairly well why so many people choose to avoid the Summit. Which does make me :( but I suppose that's how it has to be.
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I'll return it to how it was, and emphasize the (somewhat) stricter rules that it has when I have an opportunity.
While I'm an OP there, Ashar chose to exercise his position IC as the one with a character as CEO of the corp that owns the channel. For the record, I didn't agree with the direction he took the channel, OOC, but it isn't my channel.
As Ashar seems to have gone afk again for a while, though, I will switch it back, pending his return. If anyone has objections to the switch back, feel free to voice them here.
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So the channel is IC owned by a particular corp?
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'CRC Auxiliary'
It was set up by one of the old school Amarr guys - who I can't remember atm - and CEO of the corp was handed over to Ashar at some point when the Amarr guy decided to pass the channel on, from what I understand.
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I thought that went out with AURORA. My bad.
So, as raised during the recent anti-Sansha summit, it's not exactly an unbiased central meeting place. Do I have that right? Please correct if I've misunderstood. :)
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My opinion is it is supposed to be, and I was there when it was actually created.
Ashar obviously felt differently. You'll have to ask him what his evidence for that is.
Edit: I always felt that the Summit's neutrality was one of it's strengths, in fact.
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I will again stress the VR environment is not the problem.
The other stuff touched on can be problematic, but the VR environment isn't a problem.
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I will again stress the VR environment is not the problem.
The other stuff touched on can be problematic, but the VR environment isn't a problem.
I think it's part of the problem. Not the whole problem, ofc, which is why I put in the bit about having the rules enforced too.
I think that some diversity in RP channels is good, and there are plenty of other VR environment ones.
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I don't disagree that diversity is good, however the Summit was a VR channel when it initially started, then shifted to a generic comms frequency, then back to VR, then back to comms over the years.
It didn't have problems before with it.
I don't feel that the VR is either a problem, the problem, or part of the problem.
I would suggest that lack of definition is the problem. I would be willing to wager that if we polled people on the Summit; in either its VR or comm frequency forms, and what they thought it was, was for, and how it was represented, we would have a rather large variety of answers.
That, in my opinion, is the source of the problem.
Everything else is just a symptom.
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I don't understand "the Summit" anymore. :ugh:
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Well, not to be elitist, but the cheap romance RP that occurs in it as a result of the VR setting is a bit "eh, yea..." heh...
But on a more serious note, perhaps updating the MOTD to state that the channel is secure of all godmoddy shit blahblah might be better?
Alternatively, giving mod status to more people might be better. But the list of candidates who can maintain neutrality and impartiality is slim. I myself do not volunteer for example, lol.
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What is this, 1992?
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I can't say that I recall it being a VR place, before. People use 'video feeds' and whatnot, but I don't remember it being a 'place' rather than a 'channel' previous to this.
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Pineapple and cheese cubes for everyone then?
Maybe a frosty chocolate milkshake, and a fedo recipe. :D
I'm pretty sure I've said this a few times already, but I actually roleplay Arvo as a troll on the Summit occasionally, because he believes its simply a joke. Even if those occasional bits listed above are fun to see every now and then.
From an OOC standpoint, it's been interesting for awhile though with the events, but even they get old as nobody tries to adjust their perceptions with the enviroment of the conversation aside from maybe a single person or two. Everyone wishes to have that unwavering resolve attached to their character, to never challenge their own way of life as being 'right' or 'wrong' or even of the smallest things. I believe that can also be a contributing factor the state of the Summit: if everyone brings up the same thing, bringing the same arguments, leading to the same predictable unsatisifying conclusion... where is the point to bother in the first place (which the same can be then derived to the overall nature to the IGS, but seems the counterpoint to that is if you don't speak up, you only hear one side of the story and the reading audiance will assume that's the nature of the situation).
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Well, not to be elitist, but the cheap romance RP that occurs in it as a result of the VR setting is a bit "eh, yea..." heh...
Not to be a jerk, but there's a huge amount of irony in this statement, and I'm not sure if you realize it.
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You forgot to mention the person who planted the 'bomb' is also a majority shareholder in Carthum Conglomerate. :D
I wish I was that awesome.
Not only a majority shareholder, but the corp in question was also responsible for getting Lai Dai to invest in Carthum.
I cannot be that awesome. It saddens me.
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[admin]Please keep in mind that people aren't to be denigrated here, whether they are members of the forum or not.Consider explaining to people how you think they could improve, rather than expounding here on what they do wrong.[/admin]
That being said, godmodding isn't ok. I just wonder if some people have never run into RP conventions that would help them get interaction etc. in the future.
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I do think there needs to be a sort of crash VR environment. Place for people to and basically fuck around.
I have made this channel. Currently its a VR Nightclub called 'Carbon Freeze' but it can evolve into whatever people want it to be. The idea is basically a neutral ground, in VR, where people can hang out, mess around, occasionally do something productive in, and basically just use as a first contact point.
I will not be actively monitoring everything in there. As far as I'm concerned, your all adults, and should be able to handle yourselves as such.
And the summit can go back to what it was when I started eve, the thing that kept be out of RPing to begin with: An endless back and forth between political parties of differing views, *SNIP* - Havo
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I don't understand "the Summit" anymore. :ugh:
Ditto.
I never really paid all that much attention to The Summit, and I still dont really. That being said it has gotten kinda bad in there from what Ive seen. I never see any actual discussion in there anymore. Though, that may have more to do with my actual play times that the channel itself.
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I'm inclined to prefer The Summit's old version simply for it seemed much more orderly.
However I do think the virtual environment may have been a nice change of pace, but the clear lack of moderation was the issue. One could point fingers at people, but at the end of the day there was not enough rule enforcing going from what I saw. Maybe it was the lack of moderators, or maybe it was a lack of people reporting them - so on so forth.
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I'm inclined to prefer The Summit's old version simply for it seemed much more orderly.
However I do think the virtual environment may have been a nice change of pace, but the clear lack of moderation was the issue. One could point fingers at people, but at the end of the day there was not enough rule enforcing going from what I saw. Maybe it was the lack of moderators, or maybe it was a lack of people reporting them - so on so forth.
Pretty much this.
However, Nikita has created a new channel as she has said so I think it'll all work out now. :bear:
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I liked it when it was without all the emoting and virtual chairs and shit. I can't stand emote rp. /sip
But the main problem is the influx of rp newbies just don't know any better.
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Gotta say I prefer the good old chitchat channel style as well where you can drop a snarky comment here and there without much need to pay attention to where someones VR chair might be. Nice to see it returning to that format again.
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I never minded the VR, and was actually sorta discouraged to RP the first few times I tried before it became VR.
The issue is that the summit is a IC starting point, its generally where people get their first RP experience, and in my case, I felt like I was blocked from the community by the Summit. Its nice to be able to have philosophical discussions, and complex big issue debates, but those things scare noobies who don't understand the game enough and if they can't get involved...well...it keeps them out of the community.
I agree there needs to be a big IC channel for the big issues, but the summit is also the 'face' of RPing, and putting that in front, combined with the issues on the IGS forum, it scares people. It makes them think they can't get casually involved, it removes a lot of the fun from RPing for newer pilots. Which I think is the problem.
And yes, my VR dealie will help that, but unless my VR dealie is able to get the publicity that the Summit has, the Summit will remain the first contact point for IC interactions, and we need to keep that in mind.
Also, when I stop being lazy, I'll make a topic to get feedback and suggestions on how and in what way to set up the VR hangout so it is accessible to as many people as possible.
Till then it'll be a nightclub.
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The problem is, there is no diplomacy between ideologues. Everyone is an extremist and everyone has taken immovable positions, so any discussion is eventually reduced to minor chit chat with a sprinkling of rabble-shouting egomania in between. Not to mention that most people roleplay to look for fights, not necessarily to 'roleplay an outcome' which may not result in war.
There are very few actual 'corporations' in the roleplay community, unlike the rest of New Eden. Corporations are driven by tangible needs, like resources, profit, and territory. That's a rarity amongst this lot, and sometimes I am saddened by that. (just my personal opinion)
So in general, I don't think it matters much whether it was VR or not, simply put the purpose of the channel is obsolete and it has no real 'goal'. A night club is obvious- people go there to dance and socialize. A bar is the same- drink and socialize. A diplomacy channel is, not diplomacy when none happens there.
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What Kal said.
In its entirety.
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I've spent some time thinking about what other sorts of IC channels I could create. IRL, not all of us go to bars or nightclubs with any regularity. While I don't think the Sansha response conference really belonged in that channel (and I don't intend to re-open that debate), that sort of IC discussion does create a lot of interest. Technical discussions, for example -- but I'm not quite sure of the right angle or audience.
If somebody has a clue in that area, though, I'd like to try to support it. :)
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"There is no diplomacy between ideologues" – Nonsense.
Cardboard cut-out ideologues. Soi-disant ideologues. Armchair ideologues. Certainly these people are not interested in diplomacy. But so what? Such people are buffoons.
Real, practical-minded ideologues have every wish and desire to engage in diplomacy.
I hesitate to cast aspersions on anyone but possibly the quality of ideologues has been wanting rather than it being a structural problem with the very concept.
Cosmo
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Ah, so your answer to this channel isn't a feasible rp setting is... these people just suck at diplomacy.
Touché, Cosmo, touché.
It's not that I don't think its impossible, I just believe that most roleplay organizations are more ideologically motivated. I think the deafening silence that existed, and that now inhabits the channel simply proves my point that diplomacy might be a lost art, or simply done behind closed doors. Yet again another reason why it isn't really serving any purpose right now.
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On the occasions in which I have engaged in diplomacy, I certainly didn't do it in full view of the world.
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There are very few actual 'corporations' in the roleplay community, unlike the rest of New Eden.
There are very few actual corporations in Eve, no? A corp genuinely can't function as a corp given the game mechanics. They are game guilds despite some heroic efforts to make it otherwise from some of the players. :/
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There are very few actual corporations in Eve, no? A corp genuinely can't function as a corp given the game mechanics. They are game guilds despite some heroic efforts to make it otherwise from some of the players. :/
Sorry Wan, this ain't WoW.
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I've seen quite a few groups attempting to operate as "actual corporations", or at least as for-profit organizations, without following typical gaming clan models. Not to say that the latter isn't more abundant, but I don't think we can really say there are "very few" of the former.
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A corp genuinely can't function as a corp given the game mechanics.
Sure can. Including profit sharing and wages, if they so choose.
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A corp genuinely can't function as a corp given the game mechanics.
Sure can. Including profit sharing and wages, if they so choose.
So true. Blood Inq and Cruoris was profit sharing to an extent, and Veto definately is. I think most piracy is profit-share tbh :P
I expect profit-sharing is the norm for player corps as it's easier to use a guild mentality and profit-sharing works in that.
I've been wanting to do wage based forever, but people play eve to get away from the working norm lol :roll:
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Started a spin-off topic on corp organizational models (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=765.0).
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I'd just like the note of the status of "The Summit" IC channel is now: *crickets*
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Crickets and vomit, one may point out.
Someone may have suggested such a happening. . .
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Can I make a suggestion?
I think the rule of not being able to use ((brackets)) is really, really dumb, it causes nothing but problems in the Summit, and it causes nothing but problems on the IGS.
Yes, there is the OOC channel, yes, I know. But the OOC channel has sort of spawned into its own thing, and it often has completely unrelated conversations going on in it, leading to: 1, interrupting the convo in progress and getting the people who were talking upset at you. 2, wait 20 minutes for the mail server to load and evemail them, then wait 20 more minutes for the reply message to load. 3, deal with your eve client freezing while it tries to open a private chat to discuss something that is normally, at most two or more lines of text.
Yes, if something gets complicated, or there is a lot of information, then it should go off into the OOC channel, but if its something quick, that needs to get said OOC, I see nothing wrong with using brackets.
like seriously? why all the bracket hate?
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Because OOC chatter is infectious, like I tried to explain to you, but you did not want to listen.
Sure, you may have exactly one line of two words to say.
But then that person replies to you.
Then someone replies to them.
Then someone replies to them.
Then someone replies...
Do you see where this is going?
It's infectious, and having OOC chatter in IC channels has been banned in damn near every online RP venue since the Red Dragon Inn on Quantum Link in the 1980s. It is done that way because it will break down the IC and overshadow it very quickly and very easily.
It's not allowed because if it is allowed it becomes abused, and then where do you draw the line? How do you create a line that is fair?
The only way to do it is to ban it completely, since it is entirely unnecessary. There are myriad other venues that you can relay the OOC chatter in. Use them.
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series of good reasons for keeping a ban on brackets
/signed.
100% against OCC chatter in IC channels.
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And I'm saying that's fine when there are actually functional OOC venues. The OOC Channel doesn't work in that regard because its turned into the OOC channel for all of RPdom, and it constantly has other things going on that prevent its use that way. Also, I know for a fact that half the people I talk to in the summit never join the OOC channel because 99% of the time, its filled with random chatter. The alternative channel thing just doesn't work and its very clear by the fact that people still use brackets that it doesn't work.
I can say from spending a lot of time in SynePublic and Syne Intel, where the brackets are allowed in moderation, that they're not abused except in very rare situations. It really isn't nearly as bad as you seem to be painting it as.
And look what happens when you raise the bar above the minimum level needed for communication? You get the IGS.
Yes, those people could log into eve and make OOC comments there. But they don't, and so the IGS spirals around itself and never reaches any sort of conclusion because players can't quickly plan out any sort of information exchange.
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No, the IGS spirals around itself and never reaches any sort of conclusion because none of the people involved are willing to concede anything. Period. It's a forum full of pundits, which is why that whole "The back and forth, is it really fun?" thread exists, and why I, and many others, largely ignore the whole damn thing.
OOC isn't going to change anything, especially since there's no reason for it. Players don't need to "quickly plan out any sort of information exchange", that's not exactly dynamic, and isn't that part of the point of RP?
If you don't feel "OOC" is acceptable, then use other options, they're all available.
1. Send an evemail.
2. Open a private convo.
3. CREATE ANOTHER OOC CHANNEL AND INVITE EVERYONE INTO IT YOU REGULARLY WOULD WANT TO COMMUNICATE WITH OOC
4. Don't fucking bother with the OOC because it isn't necessary at all.
This:
I can say from spending a lot of time in SynePublic and Syne Intel, where the brackets are allowed in moderation, that they're not abused except in very rare situations.
Is a microscopic test case that offers no statistical validity. I could alternatively state that 16 years of RPing online in various RP venues has shown that your examples are the very rare situations, and not otherwise. Using a much large test case, and with a slightly larger statistical validity to it, but that still falls to the same illogical argument.
The argument I would make is that the majority of people tend to agree with that viewpoint because it also matches their experiences. And that is a far greater test case.
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Can we ban italics from Lillith's posts? ;)
(I jest! <3)
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Bite me.
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Ban 'dynamic'
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Ban 'ban.' :P
I think that I would prefer people to open a private convo if they need to clarify things OOC when interacting IC. Eve's chat system is very usable, compared to the tired systems that most games insist on using, so take advantage and avoid those brackets, I say.
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Mm. Usually, I agree that opening an OOC convo is best.
But perhaps not always.
The maddening exception that I occasionally run into is where, in an entirely virtual "pilot chatter" channel, someone /emotes strolling in and taking a seat.
Where there are no seats.
And then someone else does the same. And someone else, and another, and ...
((Uh, guys, this is a voice-and-video-only channel. It's not a room, virtual or otherwise.))
((Huh? Oh. Okay. Ignore what I just said, then))
((And me.))
((Me too.))
((K, thanks. Back IC?))
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Holy god this is so true. Thanks for bringing it up Seri.
Not to sound elitist, but somehow a bunch of new roleplayers decided to unleash the craziest RPs onto the Summit. I've no idea on how to approach this, so I just ignore it all.
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Not all of it is "new roleplayers". A decent amount of it seems apparent to be alts of old players and middling players and mains of old and middling players alike.
There's a lot of shit going on in there -- and still had fuckall to do with whether or not it was VR.
The Summit has problem. It has big problems. The VR is gone, not only have those problems not diminished, they've grown. I suggest addressing the actual problems instead of perceived symptoms.
I also suggest reinstating VR.