Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silver Night on 29 Apr 2010, 11:29
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But yeah, as I told Milo yesterday: when somebody creates a project that exists somewhere in that Angel / Serpentis / Syndicate nexus, they get my interest.
This got me thinking about the relationship between these three entities. We know that the Angels do security for the Serps, and the Serps are all over the Syndicate. Do they exert control over things in Syndicate? Certain places? General influence? How much of stuff do they run behind the scenes?
How much are the Angels involved? What about the deal between the Angels and the Serps? Obviously the Serps have some muscle - they stole a titan, after all - but how much do they depend on the Angels? How closely are the Guardian Angels still tied to their parent organization and how closely are the tied to the Serps?
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I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the Syndicate is a great place for the Serpentis to sell their stuff, and that they have at worst something like a NAP with the Cartel.
After all, if somebody's running a black market and welcomes you to participate, then you might as well cooperate based on mutual interests.
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I'm not sure about their relationship with the Syndicate, aside from working in the same area. It may be as simple as a place to sell their wares.
How much are the Angels involved? What about the deal between the Angels and the Serps? Obviously the Serps have some muscle - they stole a titan, after all - but how much do they depend on the Angels? How closely are the Guardian Angels still tied to their parent organization and how closely are the tied to the Serps?
As for the Angel/Serpentis relationship, I've done a bit of reading and piecing together what I can from the missions out there and the PF from chrons and the wiki; and this is what seems to make sense from what I've seen.
The Serps have a very minimal amount of muscle, and what they do have is dedicated to defending the drug manufacturing plants and storage facilities. Even what they have for those tasks isn't enough, which is why they hire the Guardian Angels from the Angel Cartel to be their muscle (you'll even note that the Vindi, Vigilant, and Daredevil are actually Guardian Angel ships, not Serpentis ships).
The Cartel sees this as a mutually beneficial arrangement, as they get first pick of the boosters that the Sarpati family produces and of course there's the racketeering view as well (the Serps would be screwed without the Cartel, the Feddies would have wiped them out the way I understand things; and if they weren't hiring the Guardian Angels, who's to say they wouldn't).
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Do you think of the NPC faction standings to each other as indicative of their relationship?
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Do you think of the NPC faction standings to each other as indicative of their relationship?
I think they can be part of the picture, at least. It seems to me that standings are in large part where the idea of two (very loose) groups for outlaw factions comes from: Serps/Angels (though obviously this is more explicitly outlined elsewhere), and Blooders/Sansha/Guristas. My guess would be that the second have something more like a NAP in order to help them all compete with the first.
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Yeah, I have trouble seeing how the Guristas are really compatible with the BRs or Sanshabotz apart from that rationale.
And I would think that those latter two would compete, but what do I know? ;)
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Well, the Empire is a big place, big enough that the Blooders and the Sanshas as two of the less huge of the pirate factions might well be able to share without stepping on eachother's toes.
I'm actually wondering where the Blooders compete with the Angels, though. I mean, the Sanshas it is a border issue, and I think the Guristas have enough similarities business-wise, but the Blooders?
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Yeah, I have trouble seeing how the Guristas are really compatible with the BRs or Sanshabotz apart from that rationale.
And I would think that those latter two would compete, but what do I know? ;)
As I said in the did you know thread, and as I continue to have trouble finding the damn source of information, the Covenant and the Nation are not on friendly terms. Their relationship is one of necessity, as both have been and continue to be targets of extermination by the Amarr Empire.
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Yeah, I have trouble seeing how the Guristas are really compatible with the BRs or Sanshabotz apart from that rationale.
And I would think that those latter two would compete, but what do I know? ;)
As I said in the did you know thread, and as I continue to have trouble finding the damn source of information, the Covenant and the Nation are not on friendly terms. Their relationship is one of necessity, as both have been and continue to be targets of extermination by the Amarr Empire.
Maybe a Sansha mission?
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Yeah, I have trouble seeing how the Guristas are really compatible with the BRs or Sanshabotz apart from that rationale.
And I would think that those latter two would compete, but what do I know? ;)
As I said in the did you know thread, and as I continue to have trouble finding the damn source of information, the Covenant and the Nation are not on friendly terms. Their relationship is one of necessity, as both have been and continue to be targets of extermination by the Amarr Empire.
Maybe a Sansha mission?
Possibly, maybe a storyline one from the level 3s I went through. It might also be a cosmos/dead space thing. Anyway I'll stop derailing now.
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Made a thread here for the Sansha/Blooder/Gurista (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=369.0) discussion.
Back on topic:
My impression is that the Serps are largely almost a client faction of the Angels - but that in Fountain and Syndicate that isn't the case and the reverse might even be true.
If you have a guy with a knife, and he is protecting you because you don't have one of your own (or yours is very much smaller) then you're also pretty much at his mercy.
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To a degree, sure. But the outsourced security guards hired to protect research labs or factories even in our world don't necessarily exert huge amounts of influence over the firms. I don't think that analogy works well enough to bear incredibly close scrutiny, mind, but I do think that lots of give and take in the relationship happens, in both directions.
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To a degree, sure. But the outsourced security guards hired to protect research labs or factories even in our world don't necessarily exert huge amounts of influence over the firms. I don't think that analogy works well enough to bear incredibly close scrutiny, mind, but I do think that lots of give and take in the relationship happens, in both directions.
I think that is pretty well borne out by the fact that the Angels haven't absorbed the Serps yet. Not only that, but even if the relationship is in some ways asymmetrical, the Serps clearly still have their own leadership etc.
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DX4 has been sending folks out to do missions and gather info on this topic. I am very interested in opinions on it.
I am looking for cooperation but i can't locate any active RP groups dedicated to this side and i haven't been able to come up with a reason to enitce such a group to collaborate.
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There's Anshar, which is new and Syndicate/Serp aligned, Toma. Have it on the (so far rather short) corp list here: http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=142.0 (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=142.0)
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thank you kindly
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only 9 members...no idea how many are alts. I think Milo's cool beans and all but that isn't an active corp with active membership.
i'm looking for an active corporation/guild that is involved in this flavor and i'm kicking around some ideas of profitable/valuble/entertaining reasons for collborative operations and events.
any active corps or groups out there anyone know of?
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What are your criteria for 'active'? I was thinking in terms of 'not inactive'. Milo's bunch is new, I thought that they could use the interaction with a more established group to help get a leg up.
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AI is very new, and I say that as a positive -- not a criticism in the least. I've had long (and probably annoying :p ) conversations with him about plans, and while it's not my place to announce anything, I think I can safely say he's got bigger plans.
They're active, certainly. Large, no, but that's a different criterion.
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er...i guess my criteria for active is the same as anyone's criteria?
I mean active means active people doing active things. *shrug*
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But if you have 9 members playing regularly, even though it's a small corp, isn't that active? You seemed to indicate that the size prevented you from considering it to be an active organization.
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well I mean i didn't invent the idea of active vs not active. i don't have hard and fast rules and i haven't invented the concept. I guess if all nine people were on all the time that would we active?
but they aren't, and it isn't and I was hoping to find an active group. I've had bad expereince with little groups sucking up a lot of time and energy to support but their own leadership isn't willing to actively grow. I'm looking for an already established corp with activity and the ability to do things.
any of those involved in the serpentis/angel side?
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Interestingly, I've noticed that the Serpentis have way more agents in Curse (55) than in Fountain (13), despite the fact that the latter serves as their headquarters and whatnot. They also took over ORE Syndicate, of course, which only has 17 agents total, all in Outer Ring (naturally).
You could take this in several different ways, ranging from assuming it doesn't reflect anything in particular IC to thinking that the Cartel does have a large influence over the Serpentis and wants to keep them close.
On a side note, this may change at higher levels, but Angel Cartel agents have not assigned me any L1s against the Republic. Lots of activity against the Federation, some against the Khanid (and of course CONCORD and Sansha), but nothing against the Republic. I'm pondering how to take that IC.
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On a side note, this may change at higher levels, but Angel Cartel agents have not assigned me any L1s against the Republic. Lots of activity against the Federation, some against the Khanid (and of course CONCORD and Sansha), but nothing against the Republic. I'm pondering how to take that IC.
Wacky. That sounds almost like the Thukker missions that Sabi was running into after the Thukker "mended its ties" with the Republic. I don't recall a single mission against the Angels, either.
And yeah, she did stop doing missions when the supposed Republic allies wanted her to shoot at the Federation. :P
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Could be just like RL dope. Take it from someone who knows. The producer never distributes. The producer deals with far less heat because of a lack of exposure. The distributor deals with a very large amount of heat due to massively increased exposure, but the profit is exponentially higher.
Serpentis produces, Angels distribute. Angels are happy because they make a fuckton of money that they wouldn't be making if the Serpentis got majorly busted. Serpentis is happy because they have virtually 0 cost. Just like the way it goes down on terra firma, while you were reading my poast.
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In The Burning Life, the Angel Cartel is presented as having substantial research programs. In fact, they focus so much on the generated data and knowledge that they occasionally do so to the exclusion of rescuing their own people.
I'm thinking about the areas in which they'd focus. Ship design, certainly. Probably weapon systems. They might not bother with more basic research, though, nor biological fields (leaving that to the Serpentis). In fact, they probably have a large focus on secondary research from what they can glean from the Jovian remains, right?
Any other thoughts on this?
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I think it might be that they do do a certain amount of basic research, and pharma/bio research. I agree that their spacecraft/weapons/etc. research might be more extensive, but given how large the Cartel is, secondary research areas are probably still given quite a bit of attention.
How much basic research and even research into more 'mundane' areas (agriculture, industry, etc) might depends on the degree to which the Cartel is an empire unto itself.
They might also collaborate on projects with the Serps, rather than leaving things entirely to them.
You know, if the Cartel has a history of secondary research (working out the Jove stuff), I wonder if they might have projects running on sleeper/rogue drone/etc more 'newly discovered' tech from none-traditional sources?
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That might fall in line with the rumors that they gained much of their power from reverse-engineered Jovian tech. Which might further suggest that some folks might try to get access to their data through friendlier means than blowing up asteroid belt patrols... ;)
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We also know that the Republic Security Services deal extensively with the underworld for information exchange and black marketing. The RSS agent who leads into the Angel epic arc talks about using them for muscle against the Guristas and Sansha, or at least supporting their efforts there.
It seems to me that this nexus has a lot of potential value here. I kicked around some ideas with Ember Vykos tonight in the Angel Cartel channel. The Cartel could help out the RSS by, say, providing weaponry or other supplies to covert cells, or perhaps some exfiltration/infiltration (note that Curse borders the Mandate). And since they have extensive operations everywhere, it would stand to reason they could provide information or more to the Republic.
Conversely, they could use the Republic to tamp down other groups, not just the Sansha but competitors like the Guristas or smaller groups.
This could also point up more differences between "Curse Angels" and the rest: the RSS doesn't really like the Cartel moving in on Republic territory, but everywhere else is sort of fair game, maybe?
Thoughts?
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This could also point up more differences between "Curse Angels" and the rest: the RSS doesn't really like the Cartel moving in on Republic territory, but everywhere else is sort of fair game, maybe?
Now that Im thinking about it. The RSS could also use the Cartel against its enemies. Example: Known Cartel raiding party travels through Republic space heading to Amarr space. The RSS knows who they are and what they will most likely do, but the Amarr is an enemy of the Republic so they just let them go. I know its not exactly using the Cartel, but turning a blind eye to a priate on his way to do someone harm(even if it is an enemy) isnt something most security/police/military forces would do.
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Ooo, neat ideas.
That might fall in line with the rumors that they gained much of their power from reverse-engineered Jovian tech. Which might further suggest that some folks might try to get access to their data through friendlier means than blowing up asteroid belt patrols... ;)
The only problem here is one that caught me sharply offguard a while back: the Angels are REALLY protective of that tech.
Like, homicidally.
I wish I could remember exactly what the source was (don't have time to go looking right now-- help?), but it seems people who spread rumors (or worse, try to follow them up) of Jovian tech in Angel hands tend to disappear.
It took me aback a bit when I found out. Aria co-founded Ghost Festival partly with exactly that end in mind, and hadn't been exactly quiet about that on IGS.
It caused some trouble. Maybe fun trouble, as it turns out, but that's another story.
Anyhow, yeah, I keep running into roleplayers hunting this particular treasure. In "canonical" practice, it should probably be a deeply dangerous thing to do.
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This could also point up more differences between "Curse Angels" and the rest: the RSS doesn't really like the Cartel moving in on Republic territory, but everywhere else is sort of fair game, maybe?
Now that Im thinking about it. The RSS could also use the Cartel against its enemies. Example: Known Cartel raiding party travels through Republic space heading to Amarr space. The RSS knows who they are and what they will most likely do, but the Amarr is an enemy of the Republic so they just let them go. I know its not exactly using the Cartel, but turning a blind eye to a priate on his way to do someone harm(even if it is an enemy) isnt something most security/police/military forces would do.
I could imagine situations along the borders of the Republic especially where the local RSS or Fleet would turn a blind eye to transiting Angels, maybe especially in return for those Angels not actively raiding in that local area. Win-Win.
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Being protective of their tech likely also colours the conflict between the Angels and the Sansha - both are factions with technological secrets. Angels have their Jovian (and possibly Sleeper) tech, Sansha has his own (and possibly Jovian) tech.
And yes, someone could likely try to do business with the Angels based on supply of advanced technology. Like Serpentis and booster research and manufacture - something the Angels do likely in-house, as well, but Serpentis very likely has much more experience on the field.
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Ooo, neat ideas.
That might fall in line with the rumors that they gained much of their power from reverse-engineered Jovian tech. Which might further suggest that some folks might try to get access to their data through friendlier means than blowing up asteroid belt patrols... ;)
The only problem here is one that caught me sharply offguard a while back: the Angels are REALLY protective of that tech.
Like, homicidally.
I wish I could remember exactly what the source was (don't have time to go looking right now-- help?), but it seems people who spread rumors (or worse, try to follow them up) of Jovian tech in Angel hands tend to disappear.
It took me aback a bit when I found out. Aria co-founded Ghost Festival partly with exactly that end in mind, and hadn't been exactly quiet about that on IGS.
It caused some trouble. Maybe fun trouble, as it turns out, but that's another story.
Anyhow, yeah, I keep running into roleplayers hunting this particular treasure. In "canonical" practice, it should probably be a deeply dangerous thing to do.
See, that's odd, because it seems like a certain amount of their power comes not just from having good tech, but from the idea that their tech is so much better. It makes others hesitant to challenge them.
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See, that's odd, because it seems like a certain amount of their power comes not just from having good tech, but from the idea that their tech is so much better. It makes others hesitant to challenge them.
better yes, they want people to know that, but if it gets more specific then that, then the person is a problem, a threat, they know too much.
Which I believe strengthens the 'Jovians in the Cartel' argument
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Well, I think it is pretty well established that the Jovians have their fingers in a wide variety of pies, though generally not directly.
I could see that there is probably a difference between the general rumor 'Cartel uses salvaged Jovian tech' and someone trying to find out secrets. Aria seems to argue that even the general rumor is enough for the Cartel to take action to 'contain' the person, though?
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Aria, did you ever find that source?
I'm revamping a set of ideas for IG cooperation between RSS and the Cartel, particularly where the RSS is primarily focused on serious threats to the Republic (e.g. the Amarr / Caldari coalition). I'd like to kick around these ideas with more of you that have some interest in this area.