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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Publius Valerius on 28 Jan 2014, 20:00

Title: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 28 Jan 2014, 20:00
Hi to all, my name is PV.

I had worked on some pages (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributions_by_Publius_Valerius#New_Stuff) and would love the hear some feedback. What ever is in your mind. Like: Typos, spelling errors, if a picture or chart doesnt work (in that case plz tell me also the browser. As for example (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_King) Firefox as some issues), etc... You can log in to the wiki and rework anything you like (I havent log any of my pages) or post it here in the forum. I will try to come here from time to time.

I would also happy for any "food for thoughts", anything, anything as Im almost out of insperation (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4099278#post4099278) :D. I will try then to work it into the page/pages. Or just let me know, what you havent like: Categories, overall look of the page, evelopedia links (to few or to many), etc...

Khanid Kingdom:


Other shenanigans:

Talk pages:

Edit: Khanid Zealots/Kingdom Zealots ...
Some more infos and backround music :P http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5681.msg93251#msg93251
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Korsavius on 29 Jan 2014, 01:35
Speaking of Khanid PF, I've always fancied how a Khanid city would look like. I reckon it would be akin to styles of Amarr cities, but the contrasting schemes would be black structures with blue lighting... come to think of it, that sounds so badass. I wish I could live in a Khanid city. :<
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 29 Jan 2014, 17:47
Quote from: Korsavius on 29 Jan 2014, 01:35
Speaking of Khanid PF, I've always fancied how a Khanid city would look like. I reckon it would be akin to styles of Amarr cities, but the contrasting schemes would be black structures with blue lighting... come to think of it, that sounds so badass. I wish I could live in a Khanid city. :<

He me too. :D I would love to live in Khanid city.

As you said, Amarr curves put in a Khanid ("dark-grey-metal"-silver plus black bottom") coat. As for the upper-class and the  I though a interior something in the style of Mass Effect 3: Citadel DLC (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrYsj_Il7VSsSbCFFZGs7BJxRPednGDbU). Where a color full cyberpunk (http://ngplusblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/012_max.jpg) meets a lofty and roomy minimalism (with strong woodcolors (http://wohnideen.minimalisti.com/innendesign/moderne-innenarchitektur-minimalistischen-stil-japanisches-design.html) or white colors (http://wohnideen.minimalisti.com/architektur/minimalismus-pur-japanischen-architektur.html), as contrast to the dark outside). I would think, that the contrast/conflict in the khanid cites is: exterior vs. interior. Where the outside is dark and gets just brighten by artificial light and the inside is actually nice bright and clear. For the upper-class we have the exterior with alot of lights (http://ngplusblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/874_max.jpg) and the lower class are more Bladerunner-ish (http://www.mojvideo.com/video-blade-runner-1982-1-4-full-movie-eng-subs/13475e954acc6903fd07) (meaning less color full, just two (http://drnorth.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/blade-runner-cityscape.jpg) -- blue and green -- light colors fight the darkness). Meaning both have artificial light but the upper-class = colorfull cyberpunk, lower class = a cyberpunk with minimalistic color pattern (noir-ish).

Quote
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Culture_of_the_Khanid_Kingdom#Dark_Khanid
The imperial cities give a traveler the feeling of a grand and majestic empire; this is in the Kingdom not the case. Most of the Khanid cities are relatively rundown and dangerous on the lower and under levels, as well as filthy, polluted, and infested with crime everywhere. The problems had grown, as most recent immigration waves flooded into the cities; and overpopulated a already dense urban areas. Additionally, the Kingdom's megalopolis are most of the time restricted on the surface they can use, but not in the height. In those cities, with their bottomless towers, a new subculture emerged: Dark Khanid.

Which was based on the term Dark Amarr; and the cities lower levels has become the home of this subculture. Those might have been ones nice at one point in time. Classic, even. But now they are filled with prostitution, crash ultra, neon tube lighting, cheap virtual entertainment, snuff Tcmcs, HoloVision commercials (flickering from the facades), broken-down furniture, pilles of rubbish and creates containing who-knows-what, as they still vainly trying to be palatial.

Dark Khanid often draws the picture of a subculture that originated speak in opposition to the new world order without social and personal safety (or rather without the familiar religious safety net). In which the city skylines lost their well known (amarrian) curves, and replaced with Khanid (Caldari) building block efficiency. The working poor commoners and disassociated caldaris are usually the losers in this development, who — often unwittingly — live a life away from the big corporations "in the shadow" of society. This urban subculture combines high tech technology with a low life, which is always on the hunt for money.

Thats how I see the aesthetics. About the culture. Upper-class = Khanid nobility, as well as Caldari Enclaves (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Culture_of_the_Khanid_Kingdom#Caldari_Enclaves) are somehow disconected from the rest. Imagien it like south Manhatten, where both upper-class live in their world WITH THEIR SOCIAL ROLES AND RULES.

Quote
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Culture_of_the_Khanid_Kingdom#Caldari_Enclaves
Caldari Enclaves are boroughs in very large city or urban areas, which are mostly populated by Caldari and Khaldari, and with a high standard of living. Although the Caldari Enclaves expatriate population constitute a small minority, they shape more than hundred years the cities and enrich the economic and cultural life of the Kingdom. Some Caldaris living in the Kingdom, were ones sent by their employers — megacorporations — to the Kingdom for few years or in form of short-term working contracts; but decided to stay in the cities. There are mainly well-paid specialists, scientists and managers and their families. There are also regular young Caldaris studying in one of the universities. Some have worked their way up in the corporate ladder; and are now in the distribution[7], mining[8], R&D[9] and security[10] department of some major Khanid companies. Those are currently only Civire and Deteis, as they are by far the largest part of Caldari immigrants. How spectacular some careers may seen, most of them are offsprings of well-paid, well-educated managers. In that respect the upper-class had borrowed many values and traditions of their Khanid business brethren. Some would even go so far to say, that they become 'Business Holders'; supporting economic freedom, monarchism, legalism and military traditions. Their values are often in line with the profit-, practical-, and realpolitical-orientation of many Holders; their living environment on the other hand is very Caldari. Some cynic would even say, that they compensate their lost values ​​by surrounding themselves with Caldari-furniture, -clothes, and other superficial belongings to a point were it becomes a caricature. Others would argue that the Caldari Enclaves aren't a expression of an 'assimilation guilt'; quite the contrary, they are a physical symbol that the profit-motive of the Khaldari upper-class has become a virtue of the Khanid nobility.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 00:34
I've played a Khanid commoner (Zealot bloodline) as a very odd specific sort of thing for awhile that doesn't fit what a person would traditional think of as a "zealot". 

This wiki at this hour on this little sleep is deluging me with too much information at the moment, I'll have to read through it later.

Also don't even see Zealots mentioned on first glance, anyway. 

Beautiful bordering on heretical people that we are.

Arista has always come off as a strange Amarr/Caldari hybrid in behavior, which may fit some of what you wrote about the Commoner demographics.




Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 30 Jan 2014, 01:55
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 00:34
I've played a Khanid commoner (Zealot bloodline) as a very odd specific sort of thing for awhile that doesn't fit what a person would traditional think of as a "zealot". 

This wiki at this hour on this little sleep is deluging me with too much information at the moment, I'll have to read through it later.

Also don't even see Zealots mentioned on first glance, anyway. 

Beautiful bordering on heretical people that we are.

Arista has always come off as a strange Amarr/Caldari hybrid in behavior, which may fit some of what you wrote about the Commoner demographics.

Yeah sorry, totally forgot the Zealots link (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_Zealots). I have try to press the Zeolots in to the political group "Kingdom Zeolots", as for me they arent a demographic diversification like commoners (in my chart (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Opinions_by_Publius_Valerius), I call it subdivision). But If you find a way for me to include them more, or just stuff what you like to add.... just tell me. Im myself not happy about the small Zeolots arcitle  :(.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 13:48
Well they are what they are.  Zealot / Unionist / Cyberknight - one of three subcategories.

Officially there could be a huge diversification within that single subcategory - and realistically should be, as not every Khanid Zealot is a member of the 'cult of Tetramon (either lay person or otherwise - and besides I think someone had pointed out that they may have been annihilated out of the lore anyway, I don't remember atm).

Basically you have space for diversfication from a monotheism that isn't *too* diversified, but possibly at times enough that it could make someone in a Theology Council nervous (if it were in Empire). 

We get into the thoughts of 'religious diversity in Empire' itself at that point, as we ae RPers have decided that, yes, a priest in a huge megacity Basicilica is going to be a little different in how they present thing than one in a backwater planet agrarian compound or something, but at the end of the day, both of those priests would refer to the Empire approved 'flavor of the decade' cliff notes of Scripture Empire/Empress is pulling on at the time.

Then you have this full body of literature in the Kingdom (the full body of the Scriptures gathered by the cult of Tetramon for it's preservation and whatnot, I'm sure there are people who can correct me and explain bits of this better) and as I have taken it, also the comprehension from that same scripture and indeed all of Amarr history (because insightfulness) that the Scriptures are a living document "written daily by living people" who will not know (nor can they) the impact of their words and actions on the future.  I usually play Arista on those lines in how she carries herself - that basically any of the faithful are potentially scripture-quotable for the future. 

Her closest real life comparison is Kahlil Gibran - basically, a religious mystic, which they tend to be misunderstood even today.  "How can you be this but then make up your own stuff?" 

Quote
In my youth I was told that in a certain city every one lived according to the Scriptures.

And I said, "I will seek that city and the blessedness thereof." And it was far. And I made great provision for my journey. And after forty-days I beheld the city and on the forty-first day I entered into it.

And lo! the whole company of the inhabitants had each but a single eye and but one hand. And I was astonished and said to myself, "Shall they of this so holy city have but one eye and one hand?"

Then I saw that they too were astonished, for they were marvelling greatly at my two hands and my two eyes. And as they were speaking together I inquired of them saying, "Is this indeed the Blessed City, where each man lives according to the Scriptures?" And they said, "Yes, this is that city."

"And what," said I, "hath befallen you, and where are your right eyes and your right hands?"

And all the people were moved. And they said, "Come thou and see."

And they took me to the temple in the midst of the city. And in the temple I saw a heap of hands and eyes. All withered. Then said I, "Alas! what conqueror hath committed this cruelty upon you?"

And there went a murmur amongst them. And one of their elders stood forth and said, "This doing is of ourselves. God hath made us conquerors over the evil that was in us."

And he led me to a high altar, and all the people followed. And he showed me above the altar an inscription graven, and I read:

"If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Then I understood. And I turned about to all the people and cried, "Hath no man or woman among you two eyes or two hands?"

And they answered me saying, "No, not one. There is none whole save such as are yet too young to read the Scripture and to understand its commandment."

And when we had come out of the temple, I straightway left that Blessed City; for I was not too young, and I could read the scripture.

 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

I notice you seem to be lumping Zealots in with Unionists in how your'e writing that - and they're not, not really.

I have never fleshed the thought out enough to make any sort of corrections to that, save that there are surely zealots in the Kingdom who do not pupport the Unionists poilitical movements, specifically because it is the Theology Council which would be the doom of them were they re-encapsulated back into the fold of Empire.  That above Gibran parable from 'The Madman' explains it nicely. ;)


Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 14:32
This is some nice stuff.

On a side-note, I've still often wondered why the Kingdom sought re-integration with the Empire. In my mind, the Kingdom Holders have enjoyed a lot of freedom and autonomy compared to their Imperial cousins that I thought they'd be loathe to give up. Re-integration with the Empire brings the threat Kingdom Holders be brought into the auspices of the Theology Council and the Emperor etc.

Then again I've always bemoaned the lost opportunity of having the Kingdom look towards the State for protection and sign some defence pacts to become an autonomous overseas Protectorate or something which would have made State-Empire relations interesting to say the least.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 15:13
I do know a lot of the Kingdom Khanid RPers are unionists.

I only know this because I'm told there are a lot of Kingdom Khanid RPers besides myself and Makkal, but they're unionists.

Odd, I thought.  I'm pretty out there, I don't hide myself as a player, none of them have even contacted me for any reason whatsoever.  But, see -- I'm not a Unionist. 

I see why though - it is difficult from a basic gaming "looking for people to RP with" to find a consistently populated group of people to play with as a Kingdom Khanid on a 'factional' level that is at all relevant to the goings on in the game world unless the confrontation is antagonistic.

I'm reminded of an invitation I recieved once for a tea party IC.  In said invitation, it was plainly stated that loyalists to the Kingdom were not invited (yet oddly the invitations were sent to myself and Makkal).  Okay, it gave the pair of us a chance to RP and be appropriately snarky in the fun stern letter writing Amarrian way which was fun and good arpees, but ultimately it meant we also were not invited to an RP event.  A lot of Kingdom players end up in that sort of jam - they have no one or very few they can really "relate to" in a non confrontational way on a factional level as Kingdomers unless, of course, they're Unionist.  When it literally gets in the way of being able to RP I can imagine it makes some roleplayers change their character's tune so they can at least have some fun talking to people and not feel like an outsider all of the time (which is defined plain as day in Prime Fiction, like I told you Veik the whole bit about breing treated with suspicion).  Kudos for people RPing correctly but againat the same time, these are characters usually that were created without the intent of them being treated as traitors or villans to the extent that it excludes them from RP opportunities.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 30 Jan 2014, 15:43
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 13:48
Well they are what they are.  Zealot / Unionist / Cyberknight - one of three subcategories.

Officially there could be a huge diversification within that single subcategory - and realistically should be, as not every Khanid Zealot is a member of the 'cult of Tetramon (either lay person or otherwise - and besides I think someone had pointed out that they may have been annihilated out of the lore anyway, I don't remember atm).



I have done what? Ehm in my book I havent: "Khanid Zealot is a member of the 'cult of Tetramon (either lay person or otherwise - and besides I think someone had pointed out that they may have been annihilated out of the lore anyway, I don't remember atm" I hope I havent something totally moronic, because it sounds like a huge error  :(. But were have I done it, I mean which page do you mean?


Quote from: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 13:48
Well they are what they are.  Zealot / Unionist / Cyberknight - one of three subcategories.
Basically you have space for diversfication from a monotheism that isn't *too* diversified, but possibly at times enough that it could make someone in a Theology Council nervous (if it were in Empire). 
"diversfication from a monotheism"?
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 13:48
I notice you seem to be lumping Zealots in with Unionists in how your'e writing that - and they're not, not really.
? It is a catercory system, and as I explained in a page above the large cleavage are not Zealost vs Unionists. It is Zealots vs Corporatists or in other words... spirituality vs reality or lets say religion vs money grapping. :D I hope I have understand you? Or was the critque about something else about the categories of political groups? As Im not a native englisch speaker thats why it is harder for me to understand what you want me to change. :(

I think it would be better if you write down, what you want me to do, and where the zealots stand in comparsion to others (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Opinions_by_Publius_Valerius). Are they like one of "corporate factions in the state" aka a bloc of government politics or do you see it more as Demographic-thingy?

I love your Ideas, but sadly as for now, I actually dont know where should I put all the new Ideas and input. :(
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 30 Jan 2014, 15:49
Quote from: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 14:32
This is some nice stuff.

On a side-note, I've still often wondered why the Kingdom sought re-integration with the Empire. In my mind, the Kingdom Holders have enjoyed a lot of freedom and autonomy compared to their Imperial cousins that I thought they'd be loathe to give up. Re-integration with the Empire brings the threat Kingdom Holders be brought into the auspices of the Theology Council and the Emperor etc.

Then again I've always bemoaned the lost opportunity of having the Kingdom look towards the State for protection and sign some defence pacts to become an autonomous overseas Protectorate or something which would have made State-Empire relations interesting to say the least.

Thats is actually not the case (or as I see it. For me the Kingdom is independent).... ehm has Eterne still not change his page. If so... I think is time for to send another hate mail to those people  :D.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/index.php?title=Publius_Valerius_%28Character%29&oldid=170067

Edit: I see Abraxes has change some stuff (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Khanid_II).... but Eterne stills likes to play games.... that he can have (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Modern_Era_of_the_Amarr_Empire)  :P. By the way, can some pump one of the CCP guys to change this white-power stuff (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Slavery) (from ISD CKang aka CCP Eterne), to as I said a pragmatic "power-fantasy". Im 100% sure that some people in CCP ignore anything I say, just for the sack of...... I would even made a save bet that CCP Eterne would rather kill himself before changing one of "his" pages to one of my complains.

So I would love, if someone else could point the finger to this. So that I have read less "arrrggg" as I meantion here:  https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2373830#post2373830

"I cant highlight this point enough. As I really dont try to get to modern and really try to get modern (last centrey) ideologies out if the way. Otherwise you will very fast find players which dont see the current war as a continuance fight against a rebellion and its offspring the Republic; they will very fast see it as a fight against the minmatar race. So one of my main goals is to dont give a reader the feeling that those groups conflict around modern cleavages. And if people start with that (miss using), you will very fast find post which arent well-thought-out, which could to very nasty conlucions."

And I cant highlight "very nasty conlucions" enough. The best example would be the slavery discussion on this forum. Which was so much derp. I dont think that those people are racist, they just dont know what their comments meant in the end. But that can be easly avoided.

In general, I think: Racism and social darwinism are way to modern clevages for the Empire and Kingdom (they arent sothern slaveholders. We dont need a TonyG-ism 2.0.). Always when I read some white-power amarr RP. it remebers me on Vettes comment in Dromund Kaas (was the slave killing mission), aka SWTOR (to lazy to search for a link. But if someone likes to know what I meant I can search it.).

Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 16:03
Sadly either do I, as writing wikis is not my forte ad I haven't done a research paper in years.

Diversification in a monotheism is like the variations of Christianity as a RL example, and if you start to bring in an even larger picture you could even branch of to 'child religions' (same groundwork added resources, completely different explanations for the same statements, etc.)
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 30 Jan 2014, 16:06
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 16:03
Sadly either do I, as writing wikis is not my forte ad I haven't done a research paper in years.

Diversification in a monotheism is like the variations of Christianity as a RL example, and if you start to bring in an even larger picture you could even branch of to 'child religions' (same groundwork added resources, completely different explanations for the same statements, etc.)

uff. I think that would be out of my scope too.... as Im not a sociologist or theologist. Writting stuff about politics and economics is way easier for me as I then can just pull stuff out of reality and add it to the space opera which EVE is  :D. For example for me is it easier to add Youth Bulge (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Khanid_Kingdom#Youth_Bulge), then Legalism (theology) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_%28theology%29). Because I dont know much about the latter. But it would be cool if someone could do a "Legealism page about the amarrian faith".

Or in other words to connect Infinite growth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism#Infinite_growth) with Gunnar Heinsohn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunnar_Heinsohn) is way easier for me.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 16:16
I'm sure there are people far more qualified than I.  I just spew out half poetic mysticisms in game all the time. ;)
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 20:48
Quote from: Publius Valerius on 30 Jan 2014, 15:49
Quote from: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 14:32
This is some nice stuff.

On a side-note, I've still often wondered why the Kingdom sought re-integration with the Empire. In my mind, the Kingdom Holders have enjoyed a lot of freedom and autonomy compared to their Imperial cousins that I thought they'd be loathe to give up. Re-integration with the Empire brings the threat Kingdom Holders be brought into the auspices of the Theology Council and the Emperor etc.

Then again I've always bemoaned the lost opportunity of having the Kingdom look towards the State for protection and sign some defence pacts to become an autonomous overseas Protectorate or something which would have made State-Empire relations interesting to say the least.

Thats is actually not the case (or as I see it. For me the Kingdom is independent).... ehm has Eterne still not change his page. If so... I think is time for to send another hate mail to those people  :D



I didn't mean the Khanid Kingdom all of a sudden becoming part of the State and becoming Caldari but more just a general desire on my part to see more reason for interaction with the frankly, "Cooler Amarr" that I see the Kingdom is. Imperial Amarr just don't have that sense of style the Kingdom has since Khanid II basically said, "You know what, fuck you Empire, I'm taking this Titan right here and doing what I want. So long, and thanks for all the slaves."
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 30 Jan 2014, 21:35
Quote from: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 20:48
Quote from: Publius Valerius on 30 Jan 2014, 15:49
Quote from: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 14:32
This is some nice stuff.

On a side-note, I've still often wondered why the Kingdom sought re-integration with the Empire. In my mind, the Kingdom Holders have enjoyed a lot of freedom and autonomy compared to their Imperial cousins that I thought they'd be loathe to give up. Re-integration with the Empire brings the threat Kingdom Holders be brought into the auspices of the Theology Council and the Emperor etc.

Then again I've always bemoaned the lost opportunity of having the Kingdom look towards the State for protection and sign some defence pacts to become an autonomous overseas Protectorate or something which would have made State-Empire relations interesting to say the least.

Thats is actually not the case (or as I see it. For me the Kingdom is independent).... ehm has Eterne still not change his page. If so... I think is time for to send another hate mail to those people  :D



I didn't mean the Khanid Kingdom all of a sudden becoming part of the State and becoming Caldari but more just a general desire on my part to see more reason for interaction with the frankly, "Cooler Amarr" that I see the Kingdom is. Imperial Amarr just don't have that sense of style the Kingdom has since Khanid II basically said, "You know what, fuck you Empire, I'm taking this Titan right here and doing what I want. So long, and thanks for all the slaves."

"I didn't mean the Khanid Kingdom all of a sudden becoming part of the State and becoming Caldari" No I dont meant that too :D and I havent read that in our comment, that it would be your wish. :) Nevertheless I think both relations are interessting.

[rant]
[spoiler]
As for the other side: "Khanid Kingdom all of a sudden becoming part of the Empire" Is for me so mind boggling stupid. It violates laws of nature and the lore. Having two conflicting paradigms ("God's law above man's law"; "Man's law is above God's law") in a above and below arrangement is so fucking mind-blowing retarded... I dont know were to start (http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/index.php?title=Publius_Valerius_%28Character%29&oldid=170067). And those two folks (Eterne, Caul) by good I never talked to such..... I could give hunderts examples like west berlin having a place in the west german parlament... those f***s wouldnt listen. By the way, I made a post now (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=317170&find=unread). Im curious how long my bann will be this time (last time, it was for linking my private mails with Eterne and a forum-bann for calling morons, what they are ... morons.).... Fun Fact: I good longer banned as The Mittani with his Jägerbomb.... I wouldnt be shocked right now If they sack my account soon totally. CCP Dropbaer ones said on this forum.. he dont belive that CCP will "go full retard" with the IP. Sadly, I think thats the case.... I mean what have we and the lore gain with Eternes statement? Nothing. Fucking nothing. Just that now for every Kingdom citzien is the own KING a persona non grata.
[/spoiler]
[/rant]

Quote from: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 14:32
but more just a general desire on my part to see more reason for interaction with the frankly,

That was one of my goals to flesh out more the ideas and ideals of the Kingdom, and to look what have both sides in commen... profit-motive etc.... AND DO THIS BEFORE THE SOURCE BOOK comes out. And that soon, because my vacation is over on monday (most likely I will take a break again. As for me EVE is to time consuming and has to few casual gaming elements. Everything is a journey.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Makkal on 30 Jan 2014, 21:56
Quote from: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 14:32
This is some nice stuff.

On a side-note, I've still often wondered why the Kingdom sought re-integration with the Empire. In my mind, the Kingdom Holders have enjoyed a lot of freedom and autonomy compared to their Imperial cousins that I thought they'd be loathe to give up. Re-integration with the Empire brings the threat Kingdom Holders be brought into the auspices of the Theology Council and the Emperor etc.

Then again I've always bemoaned the lost opportunity of having the Kingdom look towards the State for protection and sign some defence pacts to become an autonomous overseas Protectorate or something which would have made State-Empire relations interesting to say the least.
On a practical level, I'm not sure why the Kingdom would seek such a thing. Being a separate entity yet still maintaining cultural and economic ties seems the best long-term strategy.

I've wondered if it was because there are a number of Holders who were born as part of the Empire and long for reunification.

Quote from: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 15:13
I do know a lot of the Kingdom Khanid RPers are unionists.

I only know this because I'm told there are a lot of Kingdom Khanid RPers besides myself and Makkal, but they're unionists.
I'm told the same, but they're apparently well-hidden.

Quote
(yet oddly the invitations were sent to myself and Makkal). 
I was told OOC that our invitations were sent in error.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 22:02
And much like a reversal of forgetting to invite the evil sorceress to the princess' birth party... :)

Doesn't matter, had RP. :D

Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 30 Jan 2014, 22:09
Quote from: Makkal on 30 Jan 2014, 21:56
I've wondered if it was because there are a number of Holders who were born as part of the Empire and long for reunification.
It was because of the emperian age expansion. TonyG wanted that the minior faction are being a part of the larger empires. There isnt any logic behind that... just that, as CCP Ginger already on a discussion said. He -- CCP Ginger -- made the actuall damage control. And calling the Kingdom independent and Khanid II not being a heir. As for now, Khanid not being a heir still stands.... but little shit Eterne had to tonyg the lore. And fuck over the news article and the history page (YC 111) done by CCP Ginger and me, during that time; for exactlly that purpase, damage control.

Now we have a news article and a history page which say the oposite what CCP Eterne actually ones (thats why I can/do link them all the time and in any discussion which will come). All that just two retards.... and most likely even more are just to fucking stupid to undertsand what a fucking law is, as well as falsifacion.


Just fucking retarded

P.S. I miss CCP Ginger and CCP Dropbear.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 22:12
Quote from: Makkal on 30 Jan 2014, 21:56
Quote from: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 14:32
This is some nice stuff.

On a side-note, I've still often wondered why the Kingdom sought re-integration with the Empire. In my mind, the Kingdom Holders have enjoyed a lot of freedom and autonomy compared to their Imperial cousins that I thought they'd be loathe to give up. Re-integration with the Empire brings the threat Kingdom Holders be brought into the auspices of the Theology Council and the Emperor etc.

Then again I've always bemoaned the lost opportunity of having the Kingdom look towards the State for protection and sign some defence pacts to become an autonomous overseas Protectorate or something which would have made State-Empire relations interesting to say the least.
On a practical level, I'm not sure why the Kingdom would seek such a thing. Being a separate entity yet still maintaining cultural and economic ties seems the best long-term strategy.

I've wondered if it was because there are a number of Holders who were born as part of the Empire and long for reunification.

I'm not really sure myself what the basis of the Kingdom-Empire union is, and it does sort of make me scratch my head. As for the State foreign protectorate idea, I should have added something about Imperial belligerence to force the union through military means as predicating it.

Actually the Kingdom-Empire union makes me ask a few questions. Such as, if Tash-Murkon was raised to being an Heir family because Khanid seceded does that mean there's an Imperial edict on there having to be five Heir families? So now if Khanid is on the Privy Council but unable to be an Heir what does the Kingdom get out of the deal they didn't have before? More slaves? I sort of scratch my head at it being purely sentimental reasons.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 30 Jan 2014, 22:19
Quote from: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 22:12
Quote from: Makkal on 30 Jan 2014, 21:56
Quote from: V. Gesakaarin on 30 Jan 2014, 14:32
This is some nice stuff.

On a side-note, I've still often wondered why the Kingdom sought re-integration with the Empire. In my mind, the Kingdom Holders have enjoyed a lot of freedom and autonomy compared to their Imperial cousins that I thought they'd be loathe to give up. Re-integration with the Empire brings the threat Kingdom Holders be brought into the auspices of the Theology Council and the Emperor etc.

Then again I've always bemoaned the lost opportunity of having the Kingdom look towards the State for protection and sign some defence pacts to become an autonomous overseas Protectorate or something which would have made State-Empire relations interesting to say the least.
On a practical level, I'm not sure why the Kingdom would seek such a thing. Being a separate entity yet still maintaining cultural and economic ties seems the best long-term strategy.

I've wondered if it was because there are a number of Holders who were born as part of the Empire and long for reunification.

I'm not really sure myself what the basis of the Kingdom-Empire union is, and it does sort of make me scratch my head. As for the State foreign protectorate idea, I should have added something about Imperial belligerence to force the union through military means as predicating it.

Actually the Kingdom-Empire union makes me ask a few questions. Such as, if Tash-Murkon was raised to being an Heir family because Khanid seceded does that mean there's an Imperial edict on there having to be five Heir families? So now if Khanid is on the Privy Council but unable to be an Heir what does the Kingdom get out of the deal they didn't have before? More slaves? I sort of scratch my head at it being purely sentimental reasons.

How about the Idea that Jamyl is the head of the amarr church and faith. She is Caesaropaper, does it mean Khanid survial justification can stand? Or has he like Caul said bow to the empress and therefore had also bow to the Idea that Gods law is above mans law? Those his Idea, the Kingdom, and Khanid himself, then can even "stand"/"go on living" after the reunification*?

*Reunifaction. A word which isnt longer in the EVE lore. Abraxes already changed that. It all comes down the old forum comment of Eterne and the one Eterne page about the modern era. If those two things change Im happy again. Because Logic and past lore would be working again.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 22:22
What lure I remember is thatthe Khanid Kingdom actually has *less* slaves, or at least a lesser influx of new ones, ecause the disconnect from Empire has cut off their supply chains, as it were, of new blood.  The intimation is that any POWs taken by Kingdom warships become slaves regardless of their bloodline (which includes Gallente and Caldari, for example).  Also, crimes in the Kingdom that are large enough also include slavery as the punishment.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Samira Kernher on 31 Jan 2014, 07:51
That's something both Empire and Kingdom do, Arista. The main difference between Imperial and Kingdom slave-taking is that, prior to CONCORD, the Kingdom did far more raids into the Federation (and the State, for that matter), and then putting the blame on the Empire. The Kingdom is also implied to be more lenient on illegal slavers and slave raids, and are quicker to sentence criminals to slavery.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 31 Jan 2014, 17:55
Yup.  We're allegedly naughtier, hence Dark Amarr. 

But hey.  It could all just be Evil Propoganda from the Empire. ;)

idk :)
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 01:25
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 30 Jan 2014, 22:22
What lure I remember is thatthe Khanid Kingdom actually has *less* slaves, or at least a lesser influx of new ones.
Ehm.... About "less slaves".

Maybe I re-word some stuff later.... to make some stuff more clear. As for now: It makes more sense if you imagen the "numbers" on the page (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Khanid_Kingdom) like the Khanid would be 60+% (citizen and some slaves) of the total population. As I mention here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5681.msg93251#msg93251): "I have try to make the Kingdom a asian, central-asian typ majority state." To get more a Blade runner and neo-tokyo vipe.  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 02:19
Id have to find the wiki where it talk s about the slave dynamic in the kingdom. It's only a couple of sentences but had to do with after they chalk gained their independence and were then "cut off" from the normal places amarrians got their slaves(especially the non playable race of slaves whose name is eluding me at the moment.)

Excuse any kindle Autocorrect typos.

It lends the idea that- less slaves, therefore working with the caldari for automation of work technology. This was def. The impression i got of kingdom. That which isnt done by slaves due to a lower labor pool is done via Caldari tech, hence the two working together more closely to begin with.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 02:41
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 02:19
Id have to find the wiki where it talk s about the slave dynamic in the kingdom. It's only a couple of sentences but had to do with after they chalk gained their independence and were then "cut off" from the normal places amarrians got their slaves(especially the non playable race of slaves whose name is eluding me at the moment.)

Excuse any kindle Autocorrect typos.

It lends the idea that- less slaves, therefore working with the caldari for automation of work technology. This was def. The impression i got of kingdom. That which isnt done by slaves due to a lower labor pool is done via Caldari tech, hence the two working together more closely to begin with.
You will not do a substitution claim (in any direction).** Thats why I just go with David Ricardo***. Playing save was for me more important (most likely. If CCP takes any of the stuff I wrote, they will deleted the most of it anyway. So playing save is better, I think). Nevertheless I like your Idea, maybe you could make a post on the IGS and collect thoughts, I could think that other will also add some more stuff.


**As I know from real-life if you do it... it brings a rats-ass of other explanation problems. (and thats why not even start, the go deeper in about your point :(). Example: The tertiarisation-theory (that the services sector will grow and grow) goes out form the assumption that the elasticity of services is inelastic. Meaning that what ever the price of the service people will damand it * :roll:* ; and also that the service sector would not respond to changes in quantity. A grow of the supply (services sector) means that the prices (and wages) will not/can not fall  :roll:. See: Fourastiés Theorie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-sector_hypothesis
***And in the references you will also find something else: The price elasticity of demand for different goods.... thats how I have see the shift from Empire to state.


Edit: About this topic (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=317170&find=unread): I still looking forward to see what narcissistic one liner will this times come. My bet is something like: "I have a english bachlor, unlike you." (Eterne) Still cant wait, which CCP employee will come forward in defense for racial power-fantasies. :D ..... who will be the one? I take bets now :D  if they even answer, aka see me as customer.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 06:31
.... what??

It could be the ESL thing but Im readin this as ripping ME a new asshole for some reason.  What the hell did I do??
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 06:37
" The Amarr Empire uses almost exclusively Minmatar and Ealur slaves, but the kingdom, denied many of their traditional slave sources, take slaves wherever they can find them."

"The biggest of these are the way the Dark Amarrians - so called for the color schemes on their ships - conduct their trade and business. The Khanid Kingdom is not nearly as rigid and stale in their governing of inter-stellar trade, for the very simple reason that the kingdom absolutely needs outside trade to survive, which is not the case for the empire."

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Khanid_Kingdom_(Chronicle)

"Declaring his home region sovereign territory and styling himself King Khanid II, the Kingdom has forged close ties with the Caldari and had at first a rocky relationship with the Amarr Empire."

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_Kingdom

Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 06:53
I personally have no issue with the Khanid being racist.  They're not the only racists in New Eden, and racism isn't an immediate transition or synonym to xenophobia / bigotry. 

I play Arista as so racist that it ends up painfully subtle - she doesn't even need to say anything racist for people to eventually realise after months of interacting with her normal pleasantries, "Oh my god this woman is a fucking racist!!"
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 07:13
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 06:31
.... what??

It could be the ESL thing but Im readin this as ripping ME a new asshole for some reason.  What the hell did I do??

lol No  :D

Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 02:19
Id have to find the wiki where it talk s about the slave dynamic in the kingdom. It's only a couple of sentences but had to do with after they chalk gained their independence and were then "cut off" from the normal places amarrians got their slaves(especially the non playable race of slaves whose name is eluding me at the moment.)

Excuse any kindle Autocorrect typos.

It lends the idea that- less slaves, therefore working with the caldari for automation of work technology. This was def. The impression i got of kingdom. That which isnt done by slaves due to a lower labor pool is done via Caldari tech, hence the two working together more closely to begin with.

Other words: A substitute of "slave labor pool" with "caldari tech" or lets say "labor" and "tech"

We see in the world substitution of goods: A substitution of an AUDI with a BMW or a Cola with a Pepsi. But a
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good
As both "goods" "slave labor" or lets use just say "labor" and "tech" have diffrent properties. Moreover many people would rightfully argue that "labor" and "tech" arent substitutability. Moreover say tech is nothing else as technological change (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_change). And it is often discussed whether technical progress jobs creates or on the contrary cause of unemployment etc.... In our case. If I would write that the Khanid substitute "labor" with "tech/investment goods/machines", I would say that investment goods would save labor. Something I would rather not do. As mention above. if I hang my dick to far out it will get cut of, that why I was going the save way. :D


I think the german version is a little better on this as the englisch site: http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_Fortschritt&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_Fortschritt%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DLvb%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26channel%3Dnp

By further question just ask..... and no you hadnt done something wrong. It is more the case that I dont want make a claim, which I dont cant really prove.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 07:19
Well its a simple question.

If they couldn't get their normal slave pools, or their normal imports, where did they come from?

The PF stats flatly that disconnected from Empire, Kingdom needed the Caldari for trade.

It also flatly states it is disconnected from the "normal slave pools" and takes what it can get.  it is only the "what it can get" which is undefined / not fleshed out.  The already subsituted, say, Gallente pop star for a busty Ealur chick.

My point is this: if you normally needed 50 slaves to mind the garden but instead only have 25, you use 25 wielding Caldari manufactured automated hedge trimmers to give them the efficiency of 50 (and the Caldari are about efficiency, among other things.) 

If it takes me 3 hours ot sew a dress by hand, but thirty minutes if I use a sewing machie, that is the sewing machine substituting for the needle, not the seamstress.  There is an added side effect of a reduction in required time.  Its the "added side effect" I'm talking about, not a substitution of a slave for a hedge trimmer without a slave to operate it.

So no, I'm not saying "Replaced slaves with drones" (that would be Gallente), but augementing their efficiency with tech.  As it is they prefer chip implants to Vitoc for their slaves, with an implant it would be safer to allow them things like machines etc that one wouldn't normally give them access to for fear of using the automated hedge trimmers to chop up their owners in their sleep :)

I'd have no issues with making that claim, as its stated like 4,000 times over that the Kingdom is not afaid of tech advancements.  So the groundwork is already there.  It's not an idea being born of a vaccuum.

Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 07:24
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 06:53
I personally have no issue with the Khanid being racist.  They're not the only racists in New Eden, and racism isn't an immediate transition or synonym to xenophobia / bigotry. 

I play Arista as so racist that it ends up painfully subtle - she doesn't even need to say anything racist for people to eventually realise after months of interacting with her normal pleasantries, "Oh my god this woman is a fucking racist!!"

If you play a racist is one thing. Saying a faction/institution is racist is another thing.

-Example I have wrote here (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Dragoon_%28lore%29#Criticism) about a racist: But does it mean the U-nats are racits? No. Does it mean the Fed are racist? No. His opinion is his, but not a paradigm. And Eterne had said the Khanid faction has a racist paradigm. Which wasnt before in the lore and doesnt make much sense. To what are they racist? And Why they are racist? Those their Religion says so? And what is with the fact that they are less relgious?


Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 07:54
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 07:19
Well its a simple question.

If they couldn't get their normal slave pools, or their normal imports, where did they come from?

The PF stats flatly that disconnected from Empire, Kingdom needed the Caldari for trade.

It also flatly states it is disconnected from the "normal slave pools" and takes what it can get.  it is only the "what it can get" which is undefined / not fleshed out.  The already subsituted, say, Gallente pop star for a busty Ealur chick.

My point is this: if you normally needed 50 slaves to mind the garden but instead only have 25, you use 25 wielding Caldari manufactured automated hedge trimmers to give them the efficiency of 50 (and the Caldari are about efficiency, among other things.) 

If it takes me 3 hours ot sew a dress by hand, but thirty minutes if I use a sewing machie, that is the sewing machine substituting for the needle, not the seamstress.  There is an added side effect of a reduction in required time.  Its the "added side effect" I'm talking about, not a substitution of a slave for a hedge trimmer without a slave to operate it.

So no, I'm not saying "Replaced slaves with drones" (that would be Gallente), but augementing their efficiency with tech.  As it is they prefer chip implants to Vitoc for their slaves, with an implant it would be safer to allow them things like machines etc that one wouldn't normally give them access to for fear of using the automated hedge trimmers to chop up their owners in their sleep :)

I'd have no issues with making that claim, as its stated like 4,000 times over that the Kingdom is not afaid of tech advancements.  So the groundwork is already there.  It's not an idea being born of a vaccuum.

As I already told: it is often discussed whether technical progress jobs creates or on the contrary cause of unemployment....

In our example, it isnt given that the new equilibrium means that the Kingdom needs less "labor". See the link before (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5697.msg93849#msg93849) (the german wiki page)... If you have a further questions, just ask. I could make some examples (I will think about a simple example... how I best explain this)....

Thats why I dont want to do a subitution claim.... Meaning: Action X leads to less demand on labor. Or in our case less demand on slaves.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 01 Feb 2014, 08:03
Regarding the 'other sources' for the slave pool, I've always viewed it as the Kingdom not having a problem with raiding people for slave stock if absolutely necessary, since at the time they would not have been bound by Heideran's decree - or purchasing it from groups like the Cartel. And yes, agreed on the bit about crimes tending to result in slavery. I've also viewed the Kingdom as taking a more practical view on the issue and less spiritual - that while you'll have Holders here and there who actually believe in the whole service-guarantees-second-class-citizenship thing as the traditional Amarrian Holders do, you'll also find most don't make a big deal out of it in that fashion and just consider it a 'cheaper' workforce.

Not sure if that decree is still binding anymore with Jamyl on the throne, or with the change in relations between the Kingdom and Empire, but I imagine that the issue of acquiring additional slaves is not as dire as it once was either way.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 08:11
Quote from: Morwen Lagann on 01 Feb 2014, 08:03
Regarding the 'other sources' for the slave pool, I've always viewed it as the Kingdom not having a problem with raiding people for slave stock if absolutely necessary, since at the time they would not have been bound by Heideran's decree - or purchasing it from groups like the Cartel. And yes, agreed on the bit about crimes tending to result in slavery. I've also viewed the Kingdom as taking a more practical view on the issue and less spiritual - that while you'll have Holders here and there who actually believe in the whole service-guarantees-second-class-citizenship thing as the traditional Amarrian Holders do, you'll also find most don't make a big deal out of it in that fashion and just consider it a 'cheaper' workforce.
Thats How I see it too:
http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=317170&find=unread
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Political_roster_of_the_Khanid_Kingdom#Royal_Castes

The Khanid had never a racist paradigm  :cry: It doesnt make much sense.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 08:23
Well, that's certainly how I read it.  If they use the wrong word okay, but ALL Amarrian are supremacists in one way or another, or the entire basis of the concect - or at least the justification - of religious slavery or otherwise flies out of the window.  The concept of Khanid racial supremacy could have very easily come from King Khanid himself, and even be a relatively "new" thing, though the Khanid seeing themselves as a badass martial race of New Eden folk specifically for asskicking for God's sake (as in ALL of them, not just Kingdom Khanid who are at times defines as having this 'less religious' ideal in some of their subfactions, in other points in being MORE religious than their Empire counterparts) is again not an idea that could be considered born of a vaccuum. 

I am not going to worry about the details as to why or how as I do not require it for immersion of character or suspension of disbelief.  My character is not a wiki article; it's a guideline in the sense of 'Don't deviate insanely from it, but don't be an uncreative carbon copy of it either - use it as a general example'.

Again as I wouldn't work on nor do I worry about the wiki/lore enough to nitpick at it, I'm not going to get let get under my skin or rile me up as it would detract from my enjoyment of gameplay to focus on one or two words in thousands.  Some of these arguments sound so personal when you talk about it.  There is an "idea" as to what they (The Khanid) are and there needs to be room for player's personal creativity.  If these people aren't writers - or bad ones - the ideas won't come across right to everyone reading them.  But I wont be banned for "YDIW" in RP in EVE.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 08:35
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 08:23
Well, that's certainly how I read it.  If they use the wrong word okay, but ALL Amarrian are supremacists in one way or another, or the entire basis of the concect - or at least the justification - of religious slavery or otherwise flies out of the window.  The concept of Khanid racial supremacy could have very easily come from King Khanid himself, and even be a relatively "new" thing, though the Khanid seeing themselves as a badass martial race of New Eden folk specifically for asskicking for God's sake (as in ALL of them, not just Kingdom Khanid who are at times defines as having this 'less religious' ideal in some of their subfactions, in other points in being MORE religious than their Empire counterparts) is again not an idea that could be considered born of a vaccuum. 

Lol where is PIE when you need it.  :P Just joking. But when you go deeper into the lore you will find out that the Justification isnt supremacy. I want start here a new topic. You will find threads about this on this forum.


Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 08:23
I am not going to worry about the details as to why or how as I do not require it for immersion of character or suspension of disbelief.  My character is not a wiki article; it's a guideline in the sense of 'Don't deviate insanely from it, but don't be an uncreative carbon copy of it either - use it as a general example'.

Again as I wouldn't work on not do I worry about the wiki/lore enough, I'm not going to get let get under my skin or rile me up as it would detract from my enjoyment of gameplay to focus on one or two words in thousands.

You still dont understand it?

He made a paradigm. It has nothing to do what you choose. Or I as player. It is out of the realm of our doing, thats why it is important.  :lol:

About: "Khanid seeing themselves as a badass martial race of New Eden folk specifically for asskicking for God's sake" You know in the Kingdom: "Mans law is above Gods law."  :P But as I said you as indivual can roll with what ever you like or love. :D


I think CCP, has just work some RL white-power-stuff in without thinking how it could work in a society which has no racial cleavage..... He had just done what TonyG has done, adding stuff without knowing how it will work or could work. By the way can someone tell me where TonyG had made his political science degree and on what topic. Not that I start hating, Im just currious. He had made so many errors.

As I said... Im ready to roll with Eternes version if he or you answers my questions:
To what are they racist? None Amarr, none True Amarr etc....
And Why they are racist? Social Darwinism? Which has the problem that it implaies that humans are unequal. Which led to further questions, like unqual in what? Like who is Praying harder is better? As I said. TonyG shit without thinking shit through.
Those their Religion says so?
And what is with the fact that they are less relgious?


Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Samira Kernher on 01 Feb 2014, 08:57
Khanid and I believe the majority of the Kingdom are still True Amarr. Therefore, the racism would probably be similar to Imperial racism--the True Amarr are superior to all other races. Though it's possible that in the Kingdom the Khanid would be viewed on the same level as True Amarr to strengthen Khanid II's power base among the Khanid bloodline.

As for where the racist stuff comes from... the kingdom is an offshoot of Amarrian culture. Traditional Amarr culture is racist and has been since EVE launched (it's actually been reduced quite a bit from what it was, to my understanding). The True Amarr were the only race that did not turn from God, thus they are Chosen and thus superior to all the other races. It's not something that originated from Eterne.

The only reason I could see for the kingdom being less racist than the Empire is that the kingdom is more liberal and pragmatic--I would expect conservative territories like Ardishapur etc to have more racist outlooks. It has nothing to do with a 'white-power' BS or whatever--this is a fictional world, and some of the cultures in that world are racist. Amarrian racism stems from the religion, and as the kingdom still maintains that religion (in part), then clearly that carried over. Afterall, the original Kingdom chronicle (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Khanid_Kingdom_(Chronicle)) already says: "... most Amarr traditions and customs still exist within the kingdom."
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 09:11
Quote from: Samira Kernher on 01 Feb 2014, 08:57
Khanid and I believe the majority of the Kingdom are still True Amarr. Therefore, the racism would probably be similar to Imperial racism--the True Amarr are superior to all other races. Though it's possible that in the Kingdom the Khanid would be viewed on the same level as True Amarr to strengthen Khanid II's power base among the Khanid bloodline.

As for where the racist stuff comes from... the kingdom is an offshoot of Amarrian culture. Traditional Amarr culture is racist and has been since EVE launched (it's actually been reduced quite a bit from what it was, to my understanding). The True Amarr were the only race that did not turn from God, thus they are Chosen and thus superior to all the other races. It's not something that originated from Eterne.

The only reason I could see for the kingdom being less racist than the Empire is that the kingdom is more liberal and pragmatic--I would expect conservative territories like Ardishapur etc to have more racist outlooks. It has nothing to do with a 'white-power' BS or whatever--this is a fictional world, and some of the cultures in that world are racist. Amarrian racism stems from the religion, and as the kingdom still maintains that religion (in part), then clearly that carried over. Afterall, the original Kingdom chronicle (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Khanid_Kingdom_(Chronicle)) already says: "... most Amarr traditions and customs still exist within the kingdom."

and that I do falsfy here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4179988#post4179988

As I said... racism, isnt working as well. It would just repeat the old TonyG makro.makro error. Or what you have shown above nicely. OR IN OTHER WORD: RACISM ISNT LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY. RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY. Two different things. We dont want to become more TonyG as TonyG himself. OR in other words... RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY, form that derives the explanation for the Kingdom slavery .... which cant work in a way as in the Empire (as It is less religious). I cant repeat that fact engouh RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY... we play AMARRIANS NOT AMERCIANS. When we play southern slave holder we can say: RACISM IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY.

"Khanid and I believe the majority of the Kingdom are still True Amarr." Wíth to large immigration waves I dont think so... as I mention in the Demo-page. Whats about all the "anti" having one nation not being white? Just curious. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Shiori on 01 Feb 2014, 09:25
Publius, dear. Random bolding, ellipsis, and capitalization never strengthens or clarifies any kind of statement. Except "I'm off my meds again."
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 09:26
Quote from: Shiori on 01 Feb 2014, 09:25
Publius, dear. Random bolding, ellipsis, and capitalization never strengthens or clarifies any kind of statement. Except "I'm off my meds again."

Yeah short form.... You people are doing it wrong  :P :P As individual, you can do what you like (being a racist, social darwinist, praying harder,ect...), but the paradigm is something else... (And there Eterne makes a statement about a paradigm)

The paradigm:
Amarr: RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY
Souther Slaveholder: RACISM IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY

I hope this isnt so hard to understand?
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 09:46
1. I'm American.  If my existence is real life  "YDIW", excuse me.  I'm listening but the way you're starting to scream I could see why someone wouldn't.  My apologies for being "American" and pointing that out.

2.  The Amarrian people were racist before Tony G wrote books that people define as shit.  That's why they enslaved people that weren't "True Amarr".  The Scriptures point out that True Amarr did not turn from God, True Amarr are chosen, therefore with these thigns being equal a simple logic chain states that religion = race.  Of course in a real situation that would not be an absolute but the extrapolation from existing lore as a whole shows it would take proof that a true Amarr was a heretic, whereas with another race they're 'guilty until proven innocent' - and with the Amarr the clarification of said guilt takes literal centuries - look at the racial description of the Ni-Kunni which states "they're generally no longer considered slaves".  Emphasis on 'generally'.

If this is going to turn into an argument about people being 'so American' .. let me bow out of genuine real life racism now, thanks.

3.  Again not all Kingdom Khanid are less religious or there wouldn't be an entire subfaction dedicated to people more religious than imperial Amarr.

I'm out of this convo.  Good luck with your work.

Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 09:49
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 09:46
1. I'm American.  If my existence is real life  "YDIW", excuse me.  I'm listening but the way you're starting to scream I could see why someone wouldn't/  My apologies for being "American" and pointing that out.

2.  The Amarrian people were racist before Tony G wrote books that people define as shit.  That's why they enslaved people that weren't "True Amarr".  The Scriptures point out that True Amarr did not turn from God, True Amarr are chosen, therefore with these thigns being equal a simple logic chain states that religion = race.  Of course in a real situation that would not be an absolute but the extrapolation from existing lore as a whole shows it would take proof that a true Amarr was a heretic, whereas with another race they're 'guilty until proven innocent' - and with the Amarr the clarification of said guilt takes literal centuries - look at the racial description of the Ni-Kunni which states "they're generally no longer considered slaves".  Emphasis on 'generally'.

If this is going to turn into an argument about people being 'so American' .. let me bow out of genuine real life racism now, thanks.

3.  Again not all Kingdom Khanid are less religious or there wouldn't be an entire subfaction dedicated to people more religious than imperial Amarr.

I'm out of this convo.  Good luck with your work.

Again...

You are saying, that racism is the LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY. Which is in the Empire not the case. See here: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Justification
It is Scritutures..... So again. You doing it wrong.


Amarr: RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY
and for some: RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF RACISM, both in case is relgion the core.

YOU doing scuh a hardcore makro.makro error. I can repeat this engouh..... think... form where legitimation comes from? Scriptures.

By the way....Arista Shahni to (3) thats why I say webers bathtube... I dont make this assumtion or have I said something in that direction? NO I havent.


P.S."If this is going to turn into an argument about people being 'so American' .. let me bow out of genuine real life racism now, thanks." I hope you never visit 0.0. It is 4chan with spaceships. You will have some fun. :D
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 09:56
Please stop insulting me.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 09:57
Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 09:56
Please stop insulting me.

What have I said?
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 09:59
I explain it now... what my problem is with Eterne.... so that everybody understands it:
Paradigm:
Amarr: RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY
See: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Justification
and for some: RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF RACISM, both in case is religion the core.

Khanid: RACISM IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY
See: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Justifications

"Instead, the Kingdom tends to take a relatively simplistic view that, as Amarr, they are superior to other races and thus have the God-given right to enslave them as they see fit. Outsiders see little difference between the Kingdom and the Empire in this regard, believing that the Kingdom is merely more honest about things. " Which would mean that: in the Empire: RACISM IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY

You see the problem?... both things dont work well together; and racisism as prime legitimacy in the context of Empire and Kingdom cleavages isnt even less logical. It is so an makro makro sprung/leap, that there isnt a micro explaination possible (aka no weber bathtube, as I mention it before).

By the way; both parts are call "Justifications" on the wiki for a reason. My suggestion would be:
Khanid: (pragmatic) RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY
and for some:(pragmatic) RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF RACISM, both in case is (pragmatic) religion the core.



Now too:


Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 09:46
2.  The Amarrian people were racist before Tony G wrote books that people define as shit.

Those it make it the legitimacy for slavery? No. And thats what the wiki article is about.



Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 09:46

3.  Again not all Kingdom Khanid are less religious or there wouldn't be an entire subfaction dedicated to people more religious than imperial Amarr.

I'm out of this convo.  Good luck with your work.

Dont start a straw man. Have I ever said something what could or would you make think in that way? So please, before I get bitter, tell me where have I made such a claim? As I said before I dont make claims which I cant prove. So again, plz dont start a straw-man-argument.

Quote from: Arista Shahni on 01 Feb 2014, 09:46
1. I'm American.  If my existence is real life  "YDIW", excuse me.  I'm listening but the way you're starting to scream I could see why someone wouldn't.  My apologies for being "American" and pointing that out.


Hard the fuck up. EVE is 4chan with spaceships. If you start crying now, better never go 0.0  :D
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Lyn Farel on 01 Feb 2014, 10:14
Well I am not sure. Even the Amarr believe that the True Amarr are superior because they are enlighted and living within God's rule. If that's not racism, I don't know what it is. But it is indeed justified by religion, and you will see that either in the Amarr Empire or in the Khanid Kingdom.

But for slightly different reasons, one more pragmatic than the other. In theory, the Amarr believe in their god given mandate because they serve God. The Khanid believe in their god given mandate because God serves them.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 10:15
Quote from: Lyn Farel on 01 Feb 2014, 10:14
Well I am not sure. Even the Amarr believe that the True Amarr are superior because they are enlighted and living within God's rule. If that's not racism, I don't know what it is. But it is indeed justified by religion, and you will see that either in the Amarr Empire or in the Khanid Kingdom.

But for slightly different reasons, one more pragmatic than the other. In theory, the Amarr believe in their god given mandate because they serve God. The Khanid believe in their god given mandate because God serves them.

Right :D :D :D as you said..... and the core is the scriptures... aka religion. And tonyg made a makro-makro error by saying it is racism. My point since few pages.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Lyn Farel on 01 Feb 2014, 10:23
But Amarr slavery is completely racist by our common definition no ? I don't understand your point.

If your race is deemed superior and you start enslaving people on the basis that they are inferior, then you enslave then for racist ideals, thus your slavery is racist motivated. Even if only their enlightment is the purpose, to "make them better".
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 01 Feb 2014, 10:28
Quote from: Lyn Farel on 01 Feb 2014, 10:23
But Amarr slavery is completely racist by our common definition no ? I don't understand your point.
The wiki article is about "Justifications". Thats why all comes down how you legitimize actions.



Your question is, if I understand you:... Is racist action out of reason x, the same as racist action out reason y? Are both not just the same, aka racist action. Or is more to it, like the if there is a higher reason (like salvation etc). Those it change ist nature? If I undestand you right.
As for now I let this question open... as the article is just about the Justification. Which means about the question where legitimacy derives. Nothing more, without any value jugdment.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Gaven Lok ri on 02 Feb 2014, 15:37
Amarr intellectually is what I would call something like "pre-racist" by the modern definitions of racism. IE I think they would have a lot of trouble with understanding the concept of racism as developed in the last couple centuries (especially things like a nation-state). But I also think they would take many of the conclusions of early 20th century racism for granted, of course the True Amarr are better in all ways, ect.

They are still racist assholes by any defensible metric. Its just racism justified by religion and religious rhetoric rather than eugenics. Though, since you can't separate the scientific thought from the religious thought in Amarrian religion, the eugenics is probably there somewhere.
Title: Re: Khanid Kingdom fanfiction and other shenanigans
Post by: Publius Valerius on 02 Feb 2014, 16:50
Quote from: Gaven Lok ri on 02 Feb 2014, 15:37
They are still racist assholes by any defensible metric. Its just racism justified by religion and religious rhetoric rather than eugenics.
My point (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5697.msg93874#msg93874). And the article is about Justification. So that is the my major point. I cant see why the Kingdom should derive its justification form the imperial justification. I would full heartedly disagree on some points with Arista Shahni: I cant also imagne that as he/she said, the King would invent a new "racial supremacy ideology (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5697.msg93861#msg93861)". It is for me a to far leap from the basic explanation. Moreover, that already a justification exist (so why do the work? When there is already a justification.). The chronicle even states so:
Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/the-khanid-kingdom/
"The Khanid Kingdom in many ways resembles the Amarr Empire. "
"Other features, such as the importance of religion and slavery, are also very much alike in the two states."
"denied many of their traditional slave sources, take slaves wherever they can find them."

It is for me a to far leap from the basic explanation**. I would even go so far to say that as justification the white supremacy movement as it exist in NA wouldnt fit at all (as it works around racial cleavages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleavage_%28politics%29). Example: White-male-voter vs. other group...etc....). By the way can someone explain to me. How can someone be so whine and call me a racist because of a harmless joke (by the way I havent know that "American" is a race now.), and in the same time be a wannabe bad ass cotton slaver (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5695.msg93717#msg93717)? I think, someone people overreacting comes from the Idea, that I wanted to hit their white-power-lollipop out of their mouth. Which I of course havent. They only think which I say is, that the core justification isnt: Racism is the legitimation for slavery. Moreover I think as I mention above: RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF RACISM. So If someone ones wants to play a bad-ass slaver (which isnt a crying gentle flower): HE/SHE/IT CAN. The only thing I say is that his roleplay will be legitimized by religion. I still cant belive the "anti" about this idea, and the "anti" about the asian majority thingy. :(



Quote from: Gaven Lok ri on 02 Feb 2014, 15:37
They are still racist assholes by any defensible metric.

My point also. But as I said, I dont give a value jugdment, just state how stuff is legitimized.


**It is for me a to far leap from the basic explanation, as it exist in the Empire. What would be the basic explanation for the new Kingdom paradigm. Like: Why has it change form the imperal ones? What those it states? If it is darwinistic, what is measurement? Example: Praying harder is better? Or knowing more about the scriptures is better? Or White-Male is better as everyone, even towards white-females? Or more arian is better, as darian (blue eyes, dark hair) (http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/d2930437/index.html)? Or it is even not social darwinistic? You people see it brings a whole new level of justification with it.