Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Andreus Ixiris on 09 Jul 2011, 06:14
-
(Forum selection for this subject was a bit tricky - it touches on both OOC and IC issues).
So as you know, I have pretty strong feelings about freedom of choice when it comes to character creation and customisation. When CCP revealed that they were race-locking character art assets such as hairstyles and clothing, I was very upset, and I made noise about it at the time, but no-one in CCP paid the slightest bit of attention because, you know :psyccp:. So the matter sat on the back-burner for a while, and I brought it up every time it felt appropriate, but CCP paid no attention.
Let's not delve into the recent crisis any more than is neccessary for the discussion of this topic - the upshot of the recent debacle is that CCP are now listening intently to almost every complaint, no matter how superficial, people have about their game. I asked both Trebor and Seleene to bring the subject of character asset racelocks up with CCP in the recent emergency summit - I'm not sure if they did, but it was worth a try. The callous pragmatist in me knows that right now, CCP can't afford to piss off its fanbase very much more than it already has, and so it's paying a lot more attention to even the most tedious and banal issues people have.
Enter my thread on the subject (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541742).
At first there was a spattering of support from random forumgoers, and I pretty much expected it to languish as an unimportant subject forever. Then, the impossible happened, and CCP actually paid attention to it. I immediately felt my spirits rise when what was given was not a valid reason, but a contrived excuse (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541742&page=1#5). I realised at this point that the situation is not - "CCP can't, it's too difficult", it's "CCP won't, it's easy but they don't want to".
Then CCP Konflikt dropped a bombshell which caused that rarest of all things - me and a member of Star Fraction being in complete agreement.
Look and feel: (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541742&page=1#15)
An even shorter answer, it breaks the look and feel of the game. Why would a Caldari pilot wear an Amarrian robe? It makes no sense.
As Elaron put it:
I can think of a number of reasons why they might want to. The point being, though, why not let the players make that decision?
Konflikt's off-hand comment is something that made even non-roleplayers get upset - another example of how they don't trust the players to do things the right way. Now, from past experience, when a CCP member drops a lore argument, it means they've basically run out of any legitimate reason for not doing something - and especially so if the lore reason they give isn't even a legitimate one.
I know there are a bunch of Ammatar and Caldari-race Amarr loyalists out there who want the option to wear Amarrian ceremonial garb. Meanwhile, I want the long wavy hair for Intaki, and combat trousers and flight jacket for Andreus in particular. I think we have a genuine chance of getting CCP to cave on this if we push for it.
Solus Starcunning was talking to me about the actual facial features themselves - she'd like to be able to make young-looking Amarr, and I'd like to be able to make older-looking just-about-everyone-else. I think this is a brilliant idea, and if we can succeed in a test case with the clothing and hairstyles, this is what we should go after next.
-
I want matari tattoos!
Posted in support of topic.
But I don't think this will get anywhere when they can keep it restricted and offer back that functionality for a fee.
-
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I don't agree.
It's already darn hard enough to tell the difference between races, nevermind bloodlines. If anything, I think they should start bloodline locking clothing options, hairstyles, and such. In my opinion, the bloodlines have lost most of their flavor since the new character creator, with only the most obvious ones (Brutor, 'asians') retaining any sense of unique appearance.
-
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I don't agree.
It's already darn hard enough to tell the difference between races, nevermind bloodlines. If anything, I think they should start bloodline locking clothing options, hairstyles, and such. In my opinion, the bloodlines have lost most of their flavor since the new character creator, with only the most obvious ones (Brutor, 'asians') retaining any sense of unique appearance.
And not being able to tell them apart is bad why?
people are people are people are people.
-
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I don't agree.
It's already darn hard enough to tell the difference between races, nevermind bloodlines. If anything, I think they should start bloodline locking clothing options, hairstyles, and such. In my opinion, the bloodlines have lost most of their flavor since the new character creator, with only the most obvious ones (Brutor, 'asians') retaining any sense of unique appearance.
And not being able to tell them apart is bad why?
people are people are people are people.
I didn't say it was bad, and I don't think it is bad. I just liked the fantastical exaggerations the previous characters had. Civire were overmuscled, rock jawed hard heads. Amarr were scowling and crow nosed with high gaunt cheekbones.
It wasn't realistic, and it wasn't 'better'. It was just something I liked, thus, I don't agree with more blurring of the races.
-
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I don't agree.
It's already darn hard enough to tell the difference between races, nevermind bloodlines. If anything, I think they should start bloodline locking clothing options, hairstyles, and such. In my opinion, the bloodlines have lost most of their flavor since the new character creator, with only the most obvious ones (Brutor, 'asians') retaining any sense of unique appearance.
Well, as the cloth pieces in the NeX store goes directly against that philosophy (no discrimination between races) you will have to face the difficulties recognizing people based on their wearings anyhow as more cloth items get introduced to the store and more people will buy them.
-
Well, as the cloth pieces in the NeX store goes directly against that philosophy (no discrimination between races) you will have to face the difficulties recognizing people based on their wearings anyhow as more cloth items get introduced to the store and more people will buy them.
Yeah. :(
I know, and I'm getting used to it.
-
While the question of racial differentiation is an interesting one, I'd say it's largely a personal matter now. The days of any mechanical differentiation between the bloodlines or the races besides a few starting skills is all but gone, and there's enough intermix of clothing styles between the races that clothing doesn't help differentiate them anyway.
I also think that racial differentiation always needs to take a back seat to player choice.
-
While the question of racial differentiation is an interesting one, I'd say it's largely a personal matter now. The days of any mechanical differentiation between the bloodlines or the races besides a few starting skills is all but gone, and there's enough intermix of clothing styles between the races that clothing doesn't help differentiate them anyway.
I also think that racial differentiation always needs to take a back seat to player choice.
I'd very much agree with this - what I'd love to see on top of all the universal clothing we have now, and the universal options for doodads and tatoos and hair cuts etc, is blood-line options. They don't have to be limited, in fact I'd love it if they were not limited - if a player of a Civire toon wanted to explain how, say, her father sent her to the state to train, but she grew up on Gallente Prime a half-gallente half-Civire but preffer to live in the Fed, she uses Gallente-style clothing and haircuts popular in the Fed, she should be able to.
And I should be able to make my toon look like the Traditionalist old-school Intaki he is - Intaki haircuts, tatoos, doodads, clothing etc. This option, on top of all the universal clothing, would allow any player to costum-tailor their apparence as they wish, to suit any angle in RP or other, that they want.
It would also help make toons slightly more identifiable based on clothing - the facial and body-build options being very universal (as it should be) should be no barrier to cultural differences and/or prefferances being displayed in fluff-options.
After all, to most people the difference between a Chinese and Japanese girl is likely to lie in clothing options, if we think more traditional clothing here - wearing more internationally available sweaters and jeans for instance, should make it a bit harder to say who is from where. All I want is to have this option in-game.
-
I am in complete agreement. I was quite disappointed when the old Ambulation costume designs were utterly scrapped, but I suppose the choice to create a "station culture" or some such was done deliberately. If that is the way they want to do it, they should go all the way, including the hair color options and tattoos, which are inexplicably restricted, as well.
-
Want long hair for male gallente. Like, now. :bash:
-
So yeah, if people can spread this and make some noise in this thread, we might actually be able to make CCP pay attention to this.
-
Andreus and I discussed this matter at the recent London meet and overall I am in favour of the motion.
However I would support the idea within the context that non-racial garbs be obtained for a fee (Isk or aurum, whatever), rather than as a standard option.
One option that I would have also wished for, but think is asking too much, is for bloodlines to be able to created loyal to opposing empire factions (e.g. minmatar characters starting in amarr or ammatar space). The problem with that option I guess would be the extension to 0.0. entities...
-
Want long hair for male gallente. Like, now. :bash:
And I want short hair for the Amarrians that doesn't look so foppish. Maybe some sort of trade can be worked out?
-
Nope.
Giving them out for free in the char creator takes away from the potential for Incarna proper.
Want to get an Intaki hairdo when you're Minmatar ? Then travel to places where there's an Intaki hairstylist, and wander about. See what else is going on when you're there.
Same for anything and everything else.
Having it all available for no effort whatsoever at character creation takes away possibilities for non-NeX related features in Incarna proper.
Think about it.
A character with outfits not available at char creation, someone says "hey, where'd you get those?" they could reply, telling a tale of their adventures in space. Adventures which other players could have as well. Ingame. Not some bumph made up about how previously to being a pilot they were a whatnot.
Reasons to go out and explore the universe, have adventures, make stories, interact with people.
Having it all laid out in the char creator takes away that potential.
-
Minor detail, Louella. I don't particularely care WHERE I have to go, or WHAT I have to do, to get the appearance I wish for. I just care that the option to go get it, exists.
Having said that, traveling to the Republic or wherever, to get that specific brand of clothing or what-not done make sense, perhaps if this is implemented this is how it's done. Would not hurt, to be honest.
-
Minor detail, Louella. I don't particularely care WHERE I have to go, or WHAT I have to do, to get the appearance I wish for. I just care that the option to go get it, exists.
Having said that, traveling to the Republic or wherever, to get that specific brand of clothing or what-not done make sense, perhaps if this is implemented this is how it's done. Would not hurt, to be honest.
That would be great if I actually thought CCP were going to do it.
But I suspect that they'll just dump everything into the NeX store.
-
I am more frustrated at CCP Konflikt's response than anything else.
-
Matari tattoos for non-Matari characters? No thanks.
Hairstyles? I don't care. Clothes? I don't care. Cultural artifacts like the Matari tattoos that play a major part of characterization, clan and tribe affiliation and history? Hell no. I wouldn't mind seeing other races get their own things my Matari can't get, but stay off my tattoos. It's horribad enough with all the interchangeability between the races and bloodlines as it is.
-
Matari tattoos for non-Matari characters? No thanks.
Hairstyles? I don't care. Clothes? I don't care. Cultural artifacts like the Matari tattoos that play a major part of characterization, clan and tribe affiliation and history? Hell no. I wouldn't mind seeing other races get their own things my Matari can't get, but stay off my tattoos. It's horribad enough with all the interchangeability between the races and bloodlines as it is.
I'm going to continue pushing for this until I get an option to change bloodlines.
-
You created a Gallente, Nikita. You can always create another Minmatar, but I agree that at least some things should be restricted to particular races.
-
Matari tattoos for non-Matari characters? No thanks.
Hairstyles? I don't care. Clothes? I don't care. Cultural artifacts like the Matari tattoos that play a major part of characterization, clan and tribe affiliation and history? Hell no. I wouldn't mind seeing other races get their own things my Matari can't get, but stay off my tattoos. It's horribad enough with all the interchangeability between the races and bloodlines as it is.
What if it opened additional Incarna options - like decking the Gallente upstart who does not know what those Tattoos mean? ( Chron: Tattoos (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-09-10))
-
And not being able to tell them apart is bad why?
people are people are people are people.
No, this is the politically-charged world of EVE, where race and bloodline is an important part of the story. CCP wants this racial distinction by default.
Doesn't matter that you can find Caldari in the Federation. CCP is going for a "catch-all" approach. 90% of Caldari are going to be in the State, for example. If Minmatar tattoos became available for Amarrians, then we'd suddenly have a bunch of Amarrians wearing Minmatar tattoos even though it makes no sense.
CCP will not sacrifice what they have set out as their immersion standard for 2% of people.
-
Im just gonna go out and say this:
There are too few playable races.
The potential is there for a 4th, perhaps more.
-
The previous post basically indicates that the lack of interractial customisability indicates a symptomatic problem. In all honesty, you can tell a True Amarr from a mile off, clothes or not. The same with Sebiestors, Ni-Kunni, Gallenteans (who are supposed to be the most varied), basically all the races are too constrained in both clothing and general looks.
-
Matari tattoos for non-Matari characters? No thanks.
Cultural artifacts like the Matari tattoos that play a major part of characterization, clan and tribe affiliation and history? Hell no.
You created a Gallente, Nikita. You can always create another Minmatar, but I agree that at least some things should be restricted to particular races.
Derp.
Tattoo: (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-09-10)
Indeed, it is not uncommon to see young Gallente teenagers sporting tribal and gang motifs lifted from their Minmatar peers, symbols of whose true meaning they have little to no knowledge. This can evoke anything between high derision and outright hostility when those so inked encounter true Minmatar.
-
So people in-universe don't like it either. This doesn't actually cause any problems with our perspective. (And Miz and I were both well aware of that bit, as we've referenced it many times before.)
-
Im just gonna go out and say this:
There are too few playable races.
The potential is there for a 4th, perhaps more.
I know quite a lot of hardcore Amarr players want Ealurians to abuse, and there's also the Minmatar old guard, for whom the Krusual Tribe are a bit of a running joke ("Help, I'm stuck at the gate"). Gallenteans have the Mannar. There was also a bloodline mentioned in exactly one piece of fiction (The Spirit of Crielere) called the "Jitai", who have exactly one half-sentence of characterisation in the whole of EVE PF. They were described as "materialistic". They're supposedly a Gallentean bloodline, but... Jitai? Materialistic? Sounds like a possible Caldari fourth bloodline to me...
-
Let's take another analogy.
From the Caldari tattoos, we can see that they are not a culture big into tattooing beyond a minimalist level, as this represents individualistic self-expression, something generally not exercised in the State.
So why then, will a Caldari be found wearing Minmatar or Amarr tattoos? Forget about our little RP community here...90% of players aren't going to be totally aware of such little elements of PF. They might have absolutely no connection to Minmatar either, and regularly mission against them. Yet, they might be wearing a Minmatar tattoo.
Take a Minmatar played by a non-RPer who has his ancestry as "Tribal Traditionalist", yet is wearing Amarr tattoos, or maybe even the Amarr robe with the hood. How does this make sense at all?
CCP believes this will break immersion.
-
Matari tattoos for non-Matari characters? No thanks.
Hairstyles? I don't care. Clothes? I don't care. Cultural artifacts like the Matari tattoos that play a major part of characterization, clan and tribe affiliation and history? Hell no. I wouldn't mind seeing other races get their own things my Matari can't get, but stay off my tattoos. It's horribad enough with all the interchangeability between the races and bloodlines as it is.
What if it opened additional Incarna options - like decking the Gallente upstart who does not know what those Tattoos mean? ( Chron: Tattoos (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-09-10))
This would be pretty hilarious. Even though I think we were told we weren't going to have combat in Incarna/WiS? Did that change?
-
Well, there is maybe one solution.
Create racial sections in the NeX (dont crucify me) and offer racial clothing/tattoos/other for a price. But a much reduced price. None of this $70 hello kitty earings BS, thankyouverymuch.
-
If I had to guess, I'd think that bloodline / race / gender changes might eventually show up as MTs.
-
Thanks, Seriphyn, for your outstanding show of support for the roleplay community.
Jesus. :bash:
-
Matari tattoos for non-Matari characters? No thanks.
Hairstyles? I don't care. Clothes? I don't care. Cultural artifacts like the Matari tattoos rusty play a major part of characterization, clan and tribe affiliation and history? Hell no. I wouldn't mind seeing other races get their own things my Matari can't get, but stay off my tattoos. It's horribad enough with all the interchangeability between the races and bloodlines as it is.
What if it opened additional Incarna options - like decking the Gallente upstart who does not know what those Tattoos mean? ( Chron: Tattoos (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-09-10))
This would be pretty hilarious. Even though I think we were told we weren't going to have combat in Incarna/WiS? Did that change?
I was thinking more as an emote. Two party emote that by using tattoos or another unique racial appearance becomes a way to interact.
-
Andy, for starters, you've made the mistake of assuming that the items of clothing are NOT tied to a faction. They are. The colourful t-shirts and leather jackets are Gallentean. The closed, embroided jackets are Amarrian. The bulky cargo jackets are Caldari, and the vest jackets are Minmatar.
Try randomly creating a character of the four different factions to get what I'm talking about.
-
Andy, for starters, you've made the mistake of assuming that the items of clothing are NOT tied to a faction. They are.
But they aren't. :bash:
The colourful t-shirts and leather jackets are Gallentean.
Other races get them too! :bash:
The closed, embroided jackets are Amarrian.
Other races get them too! :bash:
The bulky cargo jackets are Caldari
Other races get them too! :bash:
and the vest jackets are Minmatar.
Other races get them too! :bash:
My god.
-
Interesting topic since this is something I have actually thought about for many many years.
I am not really that keen on discussing my roleplay, since I am firmly in the "find out IC" -camp. However, clothing is something that would be obvious IC, isn't it? So I quess it's not much of a problem.
I always thought Tara actually wore amarrian robes among other things, men's kind too, with the hood over her eyes and the works. Also the tattoo on her cheek, well, that's the best the char generator let's me do at the moment. Being a caldari is a complete non-issue for her, surely it would not limit her choice of clothing, tattoos, make-up, jewelry etc.
So in my opinion, players really should be able to choose. There are reasons other than loyalty or even vanity to wear things. What breaks immersion to me is not being able to smear an amarrian robe or minmatar tattoo by wearing it in spite because I can. Only of course, I can't. :)
I do see the point from people disagreeing, though, and they are right, too. It is a matter of choice, as things often are, with no clear right answer in my opinion.
-
In that case, Andreus, why is it, then, that a Minmatar can pick from two of those bulky cargo jackets, and the Caldari can pick from a whole set?
This t-shirt (http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Seriphyn/gallentee.png) is Gallentean. Take a look at this as well (http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Seriphyn/BloodlineSelection.jpg).
-
In that case, Andreus, why is it, then, that a Minmatar can pick from two of those bulky cargo jackets, and the Caldari can pick from a whole set
Because of the arbitrary racelocks, which we're trying to get removed.
Do I really have to explain this? It's in the goddamn OP.
-
I understand the point you're trying to make, Andreus. Right now, I'm just trying to point out the mistake you made in assuming that the clothing items are not tied to a faction. Some aren't, in particular, the vest tops (m/f) and the bland off-white/dull-bllue/black t-shirts. The fact they are tied to a faction is a minor point, but is fundamental to CCP's idea of 'racial identity'.
I think that might be way the NeX has generic items, for the most part.
-
Actually, Louella's response was great, I think.
-
I understand the point you're trying to make, Andreus. Right now, I'm just trying to point out the mistake you made in assuming that the clothing items are not tied to a faction.
This is a terrible idea. The only item of clothing that is not too generic to be tied to a faction is the Amarrian robes, and there have already been about a thousand reasons stated in this thread and the one on EVE-O as to why they shouldn't be racelocked either.
The only reason I can see for you taking CCP's side is to be intentionally controvertial with an idea almost everyone else in this thread supports.
-
Only item of clothing? Andreus, did you miss my link to the Gallentean t-shirt, as well as the link to the faction default dolls?
-
I don't understand why Andreus is getting so angry.
-
It's Andreus. That's what he does.
-
Going with Seriphyn on this.
T-shirts and vests are one thing, and I know I've voiced my selfish desire to get other racial clothing on my character, but I really don't care to see "DarthWinkertoss666 the Brutor" wearing Amarrian robes and a Gallentean tattoo. It's already ironic enough to see their portrait with another race's background when you know they selected it for no good reason.
-
I would prefer to see more 'Amarrian robes designed in Minmatar fashion' than Minmatar wearing Amarrian robes, to use the most visible example.
-
Only item of clothing? Andreus, did you miss my link to the Gallentean t-shirt, as well as the link to the faction default dolls?
Of what relevance are they?
So what if people wear Gallente Federation t-shirts? There are Caldari, Amarr and Minmatar members of the Federation.
-
I think the issue here is that while roleplayers may not like restrictions on themselves because we know we'd handle their removal responsibly, 98% of the player population would not.
-
I think the issue here is that while roleplayers may not like restrictions on themselves because we know we'd handle their removal responsibly, 98% of the player population would not.
Very well put, thanks Cas.
-
It's an excellent justification, since it protects the immersion of the rest of us.
-
"Because people dress in odd clothing, it breaks my immersion of the game."
Like I said to Seriphyn, if your immersion is jarred by capsuleers wearing clothing that they think looks cool, you may have serious issues actually becoming immersed. Capsuleers are by definition an incredibly eccentric and strange subset of humanity who have enough money to literally do whatever the hell they want. The idea that the Amarr Empire lets you - yes, you, Mizhara, Ms. Kill The Empire, and you, Crucifire, Ms. True Slave - buy ships like the Apocalypse that are nothing less than symbols of Imperial majesty and faith but there's not a single tailor in the cluster who'd make you a robe if you wanted one?
I can buy a Tengu, without an exception the State's most advanced military warship, but I can't get a black bomber jacket?
Uh, what? No. That's what we in the trade call "moon logic".
-
what does that have to do with the moon? Serious question, I'm curious how the term came to be.
Anyways, for the first time in this thread, you've said something I agree with Andreus. It's odd that we can buy a Navy Issue Apocalypse and simultaneously have negative standings with the Amarr Empire (and be K.O.S. by their Navy).
Andreus, would you accept a compromise to where.. There is a pool of fairly non-racial specific clothing like what we have available now. (Let's face it.. anyone can wear a bomber jacket or a set of ornate robes) But there is also faction specific clothing, even bloodline specific clothing that you'd have to do something ingame to get those specific items. As someone in this thread said, travel to Venal to get some true Guristas style jackets from the NPC store out there or what have you.
-
If I had to guess, I'd think that bloodline / race / gender changes might eventually show up as MTs.
Good. I'll pay for that.
Honestly, I'm well aware I was stupid and shouldn't have listened to the minmaxers that told me to roll xyz bloodline or else and mocked any attempts I made to talk to RPers or roleplay. I know I fucked up. And if I could fix that without dumping all the time and effort I put into Nikita I would, in a heartbeat. If I could jut pour her skills into a matari character, or change her bloodline, I would, if I could put matari tattoos on her, I would. I'd pay for it.
-
I am sorry, but it is pretty hard to argue against giving people the ability to wear any t-shirt of their preference when they can go out a commandeer a majestic battleship that symbolizes an empires might and power while being loathed by said empire due to killing thousands of its citizens.
I can fly a Bhalgorn in to the Amarr system and scare the crap out of the local population, but I cannot get long hair.
And yes, I would be nice if certain changes could only be done at certain places, but first step is to get CCP to even acknowledge that all of the free clothing options should somehow be available to all players.
The news item regarding Gallentean youth misusing Minmatar tattoos tells exactly what would happen when somebody uses a ceremonial "clothing" from another culture wrong.
-
what does that have to do with the moon? Serious question, I'm curious how the term came to be
Lunacy, from the latin luna or moon. Pre-modern medicine there was the common belief that mental inability was tied to the moon & lunar cycles. Does that answer your question?
-
I was disappointed when :psyccp: nerfed all the options that had become synonymous with the Intaki bloodlines - long hair for example.
Now Khanids can have long hair, but Intaki can't. Looking at the ILF member list many of the male characters have even gone dreadlocks, which is the only long hair option available, but makes the chars looks Matari to me.
So for mine, either give up options that are commensurate with what the established bloodline 'look' was, or open up the racial options.
-
Frankly, I don't find it terribly immersion-breaking to see, as someone put it, "DarthWinkertoss666 the Brutor" wearing Amarrian robes and a Gallentean tattoo". Some capsuleers (I tend to think of the nullseccers in particular, but a lot of empire dwellers too) are established to be batshit insane by the standards of baseliners or even the faction-loyal capsuleers. They are not prime examples of people attached to their roots. They are people who've taken the obscene wealth, lack of responsibility, and total detachment that can come with being a capsuleer, and ran with it, loosing their racial/bloodline/home identity in the process. Doing completely random, senseless, and taboo-breaking things is practically the hallmark of capsuleership.
With that said, I very much agree with Louella's early-on post that faction-related additions SHOULD be tied to racial space - even if only because it gives us more reason to undock, fly around, potentially be blown up, and all instead of just sitting in a station primping our 'toons.
-
Imo you should at least be locked into the racial "stereotype" when you first make your character - and then be able to dress anyway you like later on for Aurum. That way it makes sense - after all you were visiting a government funded university before, and I don't think you'd do too well if you had a mini tattoo while being in the Hedion University / if you were wearing 'marr robes while visiting your (compulsive!) classes on "The history of minmatar opression" in any republic uni.
Also, Andreus, take a chill pill. You are acting pretty immature and, ironically, completely against the dmocratic values you tend to hold up in other thread. :s
-
For Aurum ? T_T
No way, either its everything locked (what I despise but definitely less than these microtransactions), either we can do as Louella says, get new racial clothes somewhere else racial related. With isk or for free.
-
That's a terrible justification for having restrictions. I can't believe you four are seriously trying to float this as legitimate.
If I'm seeing hordes of True Amarrians walking around EFA in pink Gallentean skirts, then yes, my sense of immersion would be broken.
Going by how many people name their ships and characters, such things will for me produce an atmosphere of: 'hey people, this is a silly game'. You only need a couple of ill-fitting standouts to ruin your immersive feeling. Two ice-cream carts smack in the middle of the barren desert will usually do it for me.
-
For Aurum ? T_T
No way, either its everything locked (what I despise but definitely less than these microtransactions), either we can do as Louella says, get new racial clothes somewhere else racial related. With isk or for free.
I have a feeling it'll be an easier sell to CCP if Aurum is mentioned. Don't forget that isk --> plex --> aurum. Just a bit more complexity to the process for us and perhaps less granularity (can only get 3500 aurum at a time), but if that's the price to convince CCP I can live with that.
If I'm seeing hordes of True Amarrians walking around EFA in pink Gallentean skirts, then yes, my sense of immersion would be broken.
This situation now has two outcomes:
Immersion breaking if racial locks are in place (wtf, I can't get a haircut in new eden?)
Immersion breaking if they aren't (wtf, amarr prime is full of true amarr dressed like a gallente-caldari-minmatar hippy?)
Considering I'm not a full immersionist in eve and the folks I spend most time roleplaying with are other actual roleplayers, I suspect I wouldn't be bothered too often by the "eve is a funny game" crowd attempting to create penismonsters from the now-unlocked option I prefer the racial lock removal.
Some other thread had discussion about Incarna+roleplay. The clothing silliness would mostly come into play when you're actually physically present but chat channel/virtual presence RP isn't going away any time soon, for convenience reasons. And if I'd like to nitpick about things, I could mention how many roleplayers enter a RP-channel by explaining what their clothing is, even if it conflicts with what little can be seen from their portrait (immersion breaking!) ;)
If you plan to ever roleplay within stations, that sort of thing becomes a lot harder to handwave away.
Racelocks - A choice between allowing (not guaranteeing) good RP and avoiding non-rp trolls.
-
That's a terrible justification for having restrictions. I can't believe you four are seriously trying to float this as legitimate.
If I'm seeing hordes of True Amarrians walking around EFA in pink Gallentean skirts, then yes, my sense of immersion would be broken.
Going by how many people name their ships and characters, such things will for me produce an atmosphere of: 'hey people, this is a silly game'. You only need a couple of ill-fitting standouts to ruin your immersive feeling. Two ice-cream carts smack in the middle of the barren desert will usually do it for me.
Considering that you already have the option to make a complete clown face on your character with the current makeup and accessories, this argument is very weak in my opinion.
Besides, I am fairly certain most people understand the concept of sending the "right" message through clothing and will not dress in Gallentean symbols while claiming to be conservative Amarrians.
Though, I have noticed once a twice a guy I television screaming about "Death to America" while wearing a cap spelling 'Nike' on his forehead.
-
For Aurum ? T_T
No way, either its everything locked (what I despise but definitely less than these microtransactions), either we can do as Louella says, get new racial clothes somewhere else racial related. With isk or for free.
I have a feeling it'll be an easier sell to CCP if Aurum is mentioned. Don't forget that isk --> plex --> aurum. Just a bit more complexity to the process for us and perhaps less granularity (can only get 3500 aurum at a time), but if that's the price to convince CCP I can live with that.
I can't.
If I'm seeing hordes of True Amarrians walking around EFA in pink Gallentean skirts, then yes, my sense of immersion would be broken.
This situation now has two outcomes:
Immersion breaking if racial locks are in place (wtf, I can't get a haircut in new eden?)
Immersion breaking if they aren't (wtf, amarr prime is full of true amarr dressed like a gallente-caldari-minmatar hippy?)
Considering I'm not a full immersionist in eve and the folks I spend most time roleplaying with are other actual roleplayers, I suspect I wouldn't be bothered too often by the "eve is a funny game" crowd attempting to create penismonsters from the now-unlocked option I prefer the racial lock removal.
Some other thread had discussion about Incarna+roleplay. The clothing silliness would mostly come into play when you're actually physically present but chat channel/virtual presence RP isn't going away any time soon, for convenience reasons. And if I'd like to nitpick about things, I could mention how many roleplayers enter a RP-channel by explaining what their clothing is, even if it conflicts with what little can be seen from their portrait (immersion breaking!) ;)
If you plan to ever roleplay within stations, that sort of thing becomes a lot harder to handwave away.
Racelocks - A choice between allowing (not guaranteeing) good RP and avoiding non-rp trolls.
This mostly for me. Immersion is broken in either case, be it text only channels, or incarna full setting with racial locks, or incarna full setting without racial locks.
Anyway their systems is totally rigid atm, if you want to simply change your clothes you have to redo all your portrait crap. @_@
-
Im for the racial locks, tbh. Pretty much for the reasons mentioned.
-
I'm kind of in the middle here. On one hand I do very much agree with the racial locks, but only so far as initial character creation. Once you are in the EVE universe and can get your way around space, you should be able to buy other clothes. And I do support the Aurum method of selling them as long as the racial clothing going for sale is much, much cheaper.
For Example:
1 PLEX = 3,500 AUR = 350,000,000.00 ISK
GDN-9 "Nightstalker" Combat Goggles = 1,500 AUR = 150,000,000.00 ISK
That is the current price exchange rates that seem to be going on. Now imagine that the racial clothing is introduced at a much lower price range.
Examples:
True Amarrian Ceremonial Robes = 100 AUR = 10,000,000.00 ISK
Gallentean Visor = 200 AUR = 20,000,000.00 ISK
Dark Red Stilletos = 50 AUR = 5,000,000.00 ISK
If the rates for currently racially locked clothing looked like that as opposed to the obscence prices for the fancy new Monocles and the 'Field Marshal' Jacket I don't think the compromise of selling it for Aurum would be all that painfull.
-
If the rates for currently racially locked clothing looked like that as opposed to the obscence prices for the fancy new Monocles and the 'Field Marshal' Jacket I don't think the compromise of selling it for Aurum would be all that painfull.
In the devblog NeX retail pricing strategy (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=936) the mention that there will be three price categories, where the lowest one would allow for a full costume at about 1 PLEX in cost total.
From bottom to top order, you can currently wear items in the following slots: Footwear, Bottoms, Tops, Outer, and Eyewear slots. You can only wear one item in each slot.
<snip>
The items in the Noble Exchange come in several price ranges. Normally, an outfit will all come from one pricing tier. An affordable tier outfit can be purchased and assembled for roughly the value of one PLEX in total - slightly cheaper if you are fortunate enough to time your purchase well.
Mid-tier outfits will be priced such that an outfit will total approximately 3-4 PLEX, depending on individual elements.
Deluxe tier outfits <snip> [capsuleers] could find themselves spending two or three times the price of an affordable outfit on a single piece for their ensemble.
That would put cheapest clothing around the 70M isk pricerange. Bit high, but maybe that would keep the 'just for lulz' crew away? At least I could see serious roleplayers finding a way around this cost fairly easily, even if it took asking for donations OOC.
-
And I do support the Aurum method of selling them as long as the racial clothing going for sale is much, much cheaper.
For Example:
1 PLEX = 3,500 AUR = 350,000,000.00 ISK
GDN-9 "Nightstalker" Combat Goggles = 1,500 AUR = 150,000,000.00 ISK
That is the current price exchange rates that seem to be going on. Now imagine that the racial clothing is introduced at a much lower price range.
Examples:
True Amarrian Ceremonial Robes = 100 AUR = 10,000,000.00 ISK
Gallentean Visor = 200 AUR = 20,000,000.00 ISK
Dark Red Stilletos = 50 AUR = 5,000,000.00 ISK
If the rates for currently racially locked clothing looked like that as opposed to the obscence prices for the fancy new Monocles and the 'Field Marshal' Jacket I don't think the compromise of selling it for Aurum would be all that painfull.
And we naturally lose them at every podkill too ? :/
-
And I do support the Aurum method of selling them as long as the racial clothing going for sale is much, much cheaper.
For Example:
1 PLEX = 3,500 AUR = 350,000,000.00 ISK
GDN-9 "Nightstalker" Combat Goggles = 1,500 AUR = 150,000,000.00 ISK
That is the current price exchange rates that seem to be going on. Now imagine that the racial clothing is introduced at a much lower price range.
Examples:
True Amarrian Ceremonial Robes = 100 AUR = 10,000,000.00 ISK
Gallentean Visor = 200 AUR = 20,000,000.00 ISK
Dark Red Stilletos = 50 AUR = 5,000,000.00 ISK
If the rates for currently racially locked clothing looked like that as opposed to the obscence prices for the fancy new Monocles and the 'Field Marshal' Jacket I don't think the compromise of selling it for Aurum would be all that painfull.
And we naturally lose them at every podkill too ? :/
As long as reprocessing the corpses would have a chance to drop an implant / item of clothing I'd be all for it
-
No, that was changed: your clothes and such survive pod killing.
-
No, that was changed: your clothes and such survive pod killing.
You don't wear them in the pod, right? But once they make killing people stationside possible (as in Future Vision).. looting clothes!woot! :D
-
suicide ganking people for their monocles. I'm down with that.
-
I hate to be the spanner of logic for once but... the argument that removing the locks is immersion breaking is DOA...
Why is this?
Because CCP have already stated their making "Cyber Punk" for the nex store, so what we end up having is Amarrians that cant wear gallente cloting but can bowl around looking like Combechrist.
im sorry to say that but no matter what happens there will be an elephant sized immersion breaker in the room.
-
I dont get why an Amarrian not wearing robes/'tame' clothes would be an immersion breaker to be honest.
This is the future, I doubt people are told on birth "Hi, youre Amarr, this is your robe. Dont ever dare wearing anything else in your entire fucking life. Have a nice day."
-
My personal view:
While I'd like there to be trends and aesthetics which had their roots in different cultures, I'd also like to see people able to play characters which cross cultural lines. There are documented migrations from before the capsuleer era -- a third of the Minmatar live in Amarr space and another fifth in the Federation, for instance -- and I'd like it to be possible for a character from one of those backgrounds to have the trappings to match. Pilots change affiliations, and I'd like to see them able to show that through choice of clothing and gear as well. Space is a melting pot, developing its own flavour-of-the-month fashions in ships, fleets and, presumably, fashions: I'd like to see that, too. And, y'know, after killing several thousand people before breakfast I might just feel like doing something daring, like wearing an Intaki-styled robe or Caldari boots.
Location-locking for clothes doesn't work for me, either. If I can buy any faction's ships and cuisine at Jita 4-4 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jita_4-4_%28Chronicle%29), it would be odd to me if I couldn't buy their clothes there as well.
-
Location-locking for clothes doesn't work for me, either. If I can buy any faction's ships and cuisine at Jita 4-4 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jita_4-4_%28Chronicle%29), it would be odd to me if I couldn't buy their clothes there as well.
Thing is, those are capsuleer made goods on the capsuleer market. I think it would make a lot of sense for certain items of clothing to have very limited NPC sell orders in the far reaches of space - which can then be purchased, hauled to jita, and sold at a markup to people that don't want to do the legwork. This adds more to the gameplay, IMO.
-
when i suggested clothes being available from locations, I was envisioning things like:
The Coriault Couture Collective would sell particular types of outfits in Coriault constellation.
The Mannar Textile Institute would sell different outfits in Mannar space.
To get a Coriault designed dress, you could go there yourself, or perhaps an enterprising trader has brought some to the local trading hub.
That sort of thing. More things to trade, etc.
Like how things like the various t1 ship and module bpos only come from certain places.
-
Location-locking for clothes doesn't work for me, either. If I can buy any faction's ships and cuisine at Jita 4-4 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jita_4-4_%28Chronicle%29), it would be odd to me if I couldn't buy their clothes there as well.
Thing is, those are capsuleer made goods on the capsuleer market. I think it would make a lot of sense for certain items of clothing to have very limited NPC sell orders in the far reaches of space - which can then be purchased, hauled to jita, and sold at a markup to people that don't want to do the legwork. This adds more to the gameplay, IMO.
Yeah, I was writing more from the viewpoint that "I don't find the mix necessarily immersion-breaking; in fact I find not being able to present cultural crossovers that we know happen to be more of an immersion nuisance than having people pick any random selection of clothing that appeals". If the food gets around, along with the Gallente cooks, I don't see why the clothing wouldn't. Maybe it's the early days of spacer fashion, though.
-
I hate to be the spanner of logic for once but... the argument that removing the locks is immersion breaking is DOA...
Why is this?
Because CCP have already stated their making "Cyber Punk" for the nex store, so what we end up having is Amarrians that cant wear gallente cloting but can bowl around looking like Combechrist.
im sorry to say that but no matter what happens there will be an elephant sized immersion breaker in the room.
Not to mention that it is the very nature of capsuleers to do things for no other reason than "because it's cool."
I feel like there is a misconception among many of us that the people who consider themselves roleplayers (us) are a good definition of average capsuleers. I disagree with that misconception, and think that it is we who are the outliers - it's the rest of the playerbase that are the "norm". The ones who don't have motivations to do or want something besides "because it's cool."
With that in mind, I'd argue that Bubba the Brutor wearing an Amarrian priest's robe, or Nicole the Ni-Kunni wearing a Gallentean pleasure hub dancer's outfit, simply because they think it's cool, actually enforces immersion, because the average capsuleer isn't going to have any motivations beyond looking like something they consider to be cool.
Besides, what's to stop us from looking at the foolish-looking plebeian masses with disdain, turning up our noses and being snooty while we /sip at them? It's not like some people don't do that already IC. :P
-
Cyberpunk or not, I think there's a reason the NeX store is generic...so that all capsuleers regardless of faction can wear it without immersion-breakages. I'm guessing that even the cyberpunk stuff will follow the current selection of being faction-neutral and generic.
-
Cyberpunk or not, I think there's a reason the NeX store is generic...so that all capsuleers regardless of faction can wear it without immersion-breakages. I'm guessing that even the cyberpunk stuff will follow the current selection of being faction-neutral and generic.
shirts with clear Ishukone labels and a caldari style is generic?
-
Cyberpunk or not, I think there's a reason the NeX store is generic...so that all capsuleers regardless of faction can wear it without immersion-breakages. I'm guessing that even the cyberpunk stuff will follow the current selection of being faction-neutral and generic.
shirts with clear Ishukone labels and a caldari style is generic?
It's still in the description, explicitly faction catch-all..."modeled off the Class B" etc. etc.
-
Im sorry serph but that dosnt cut it, if they added a description to the basic cloths such as the dreads that says.
"styled after the brutor tradional warrior hair style"
We would still be haveing this debate, the fact of the matter is, its immersion breaking that me being brutor cannot wear the caldari uniform when in I-RED.
Think about this from a real life perspective, looking at fashion trends, people from all walks of life wear cloths or moderfy their bodys in ways that are from other cultures, ive seen white people with Mouri tattoos and ear streching is all the rage now days.
Should we make that illegal as its not a style everyone from that society adheres to?
What im trying to say is, the real immersion breaker is not having the choice to do so.
-
I love your forum avatar pic by the way, chief ;-)
-
when i suggested clothes being available from locations, I was envisioning things like:
The Coriault Couture Collective would sell particular types of outfits in Coriault constellation.
The Mannar Textile Institute would sell different outfits in Mannar space.
To get a Coriault designed dress, you could go there yourself, or perhaps an enterprising trader has brought some to the local trading hub.
That sort of thing. More things to trade, etc.
Like how things like the various t1 ship and module bpos only come from certain places.
I'm entirely for this.
-
Having things sold in one constellation only would persist for about a week, after which everything would be available in every market hub in the game. There's almost no point whatsoever.
-
Having things sold in one constellation only would persist for about a week, after which everything would be available in every market hub in the game.
Only if they're successful... blueprints (designs) arrive on the scene, and some of them become popular, and spread, and some don't.
As long as there's information about what's new, and where to get it from, that could be almost interesting...
Oh. I think I just advocated the idea of a fashion magazine in Eve...
-
Oh. I think I just advocated the idea of a fashion magazine in Eve...
I have another suggestion, although I suspect it would be too hard on CCP's art department: the EVE version of Threadless (http://www.threadless.com/) for far more than just T-shirts. Get players (or characters) to design clothes they'd like to see, let us all vote and comment, and then CCP decides (somewhat guided by the vote, but with full creative control) which ones will be produced.
Also, limited runs of certain items. "The blue version of that jacket was made only in October 113", etc.
(Did I just say that? I'm still :S that it seems I won't be able to have my aunts send me care packages of clothing. Yeah, sure, if some people want to buy clothes worth a carrier, go for it, but if I want my favourite dancing tights from home or even high fashion from the Crystal Boulevard it should be cheap compared to a warship with thousands of crew. I get it from the gameplay perspective of giving players-who-don't-want-carriers things to save up for, but it does not make sense in my EVE.)
-
Is it bad that I've lost faith in most of Incarna? I realize as I read this thread that all these great ideas would be largely ignored by CCP. I honestly.. don't believe I'll see any reasonably priced clothing, let alone clothing that can be gained by means other than NeX.
It's just so depressing.
btw Andreus, I poked CCP about your thread in twitter. Maybe they will reply.
-
I decided to make Katrina as Amarrian as she could be. This is the result I got, and it's surprisingly effective. The way I figure it.. it should either be completely locked like it was before, or it should be completely unlocked so all styles are available to all bloodlines. The current setup makes no sense.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6011/5980873044_bd78187bfd_b.jpg)
-
Having things sold in one constellation only would persist for about a week, after which everything would be available in every market hub in the game. There's almost no point whatsoever.
Perhaps we're in simply disagreement, but isn't fostering a player-run, player-supported economy a good thing?
-
The whole racialization of the game is a big carryover from the fine traditions of roleplay games of the past. EVE is bleeding edge futurama, so if you really want to take so called 'sci-fi realism' (EVEisRealTM) to the grassroots, you have to admit that a lot of the choices given to us do not make sense, not just aesthetic ones. I do not need to point out the ridiculousness of the Aurum exchange rate to cast a doubt on the plausibility of NeX within the EVE world.
For example, one might want to change the skills system. What makes sense to me is that upon graduation different individuals would have different skills, but could very easily have the same personality 'traits' as individuals of other races or cultures (no elves or werewolves in space please). Then, given the advancements in neural mapping technologies available to capsuleers, it makes sense you could create/train/map whatever traits you want, if you can afford it and after you have trained your mind not to loose cohesion on remap (informorph).
Heck, with physical reconstruction technologies, you should be able to clone into a body double of any character you could get biometrics on. But the game is about what is fun, not necessarily plausible (unless fun for you is everything making sense together). So, as Katrina pointed out, it is not 'better' to have the old characters, but for some it may have been more enjoyable to associate with a caricatured avatar rather than a photo-realistic moving person.
So for me this discussion is about what is fun versus what could be imagined within a fictional world that generally follows a cohesive set of scientific and social principles. And here I am undecided, mostly because of the limitations of the game itself. I would like a bit of both, and if done well, I think a mix could make most people happy.
Our use of ships/weapons/implants in game is a great example of plausible freedom of choice, other game choices should reflect this. The only things I can justify CCP excluding from aesthetic options are the in-game identifiers that your choices have resulted in:
- option to 'display medals' on your character, and the style of the medals would be in the style of your chosen upper garment.
- option to 'display corp/alliance logos' on your character, as a tatoo or crest on a vest.
-
But the game is about what is fun, not necessarily plausible (unless fun for you is everything making sense together).
It's not fun for me when things aren't plausible.