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General Discussion => The Speakeasy: OOG/Off-topic Discussion => Topic started by: Valdezi on 22 Nov 2010, 05:20
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All right, colleagues,
I would be interested to see people's all time political heroes. For my choices I did not necessarily select people that had an ideology close to mine (though some do) or perfect, saintly figures (Gandhi, Mandela - though feel free to select these people) but figures that I admired either politically, morally or functionally.
There is some capacity to make this a trollthread (Posting on the virtues of Hitler or something) but try to keep it mature.
All right.
5) Napoleon Bonaparte-
Pros -Tried to unite Europe and establish an egalitarian state. His policies on racial relations were way ahead of their time. British history demonised him somewhat, but modern revisionist history has suggested that the world would probably have been better off if Napoleon had succeeded.
Cons -Some questionable actions, Megalomania
4) Franklin Delano Roosevelt -
I didn't want to pick too many WWII leaders, because there'll be a bunch, but this guy deserves it for the New Deal alone. America's greatest President? (/ducks 'Reagan missiles')
3) Gaius Marius - Roman Reformer. Tried to peel power away from the Optimates and give it to the people. Met the eventual fate of all Roman reformers (death)
2) Mustafa Kemal Ataturk -
I think it's surprising that more people don't know about this guy, but he's one of the most amazing figures of the 20th Century. A genius with a personality and vision of such power. Turkey was lucky to have him. Probably the most objectively 'great' figure of the 20th Century in my humble opinion.
1) John Curtin -
Australia's Greatest Prime Minister. Look him up.
*Honourable mentions: EG Whitlam, Thomas Jefferson, Eamon de Valera, Constantine, Paul Keating, Giuseppe Garibaldi............ so many.
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5) John Locke - Helped advance the idea of the "social contract." (Short definition: people give up sovereignty to a government or other authority in order to receive or maintain social order through the rule of law. It can also be thought of as an agreement by the governed on a set of rules by which they are governed.)
4) David Hume - Ripped apart the idea of the social contract and stated that it was through force that government's were forged.
3) Machiavelli - I was assigned to read "The Prince" four times in as many years as political science student in college. And yes, it is that influential, whether people realize it or not.
2) Che Guevara - I know it's hip to have a Che T-shirt, but I think there is an important lesson to be learned from his failures in the Congo and Bolivia. Using violence in revolution is quite literally playing with fire.
1) Thomas Jefferson — The voice of the Declaration of Independence and an insightful political philosopher.
Honorable mentions: Subcomandante Marcos, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar and Thomas Paine.
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5) Adolf Hitler, the perfect model for future generations to be on watch against. Not a hero, don't get that wrong, but an extremely important lesson.
4) Justinian I, pauper to prince and reconquistador of the Western Empire. What a story!
3) John F. Kennedy, for navigating the Cuban Missile Crisis and setting the policy that made us an interplanetary species for the first time.
2) Thomas Jefferson, the once and future king.
1) Abraham Lincoln, for playing fucking heroic politics.
[/American perspective]
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I'll just list them.
5. Otto von Bismarck
4. Abraham Lincoln
3. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
2. René Descartes (he wasn't a politician but still)
1. Nelson Mandela
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Mammal, your allegiances are revealed: Curtin, Gough and Keating ;)
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I won't list them in order:
Alexander the Great
Adolf Hitler
Genghis Khan
Timur
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Mammal, your allegiances are revealed: Curtin, Gough and Keating ;)
:D
I like that people have chosen different things. I went with leaders rather than political philosophers, but this is great stuff.
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I won't list them in order:
Alexander the Great
Adolf Hitler
Genghis Khan
Timur
someone's a brute irl
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OK, rather than just observe Mammal's political persuasion (... although, as Mammal rightly pointed out, correlation does not equal causation) I shall present my own list.
1. Winston Churchill - really smart guy. And managing to do all of that drunk makes him even smarter.
2. Kublai Khan - Gengis's grandson. Often forgotten. He was pivotal (arguably) in laying the foundations that made China what it is today.
3. Ramesses II - The most significant pharaoh. Now that man knew how to get shit DONE! The Greeks called him Ozymandias.
4. Vladimir Putin - you show me another politician who can shoot tigers, ride a horse shirtless, and be judo-thrown by a 9 year old girl, and I'll eat my hat!
and... since no one else has done this as a joke yet...
5. Tibus Heth.
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Hmm... well in my opinion those would be:
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - yea i know him a bit, he achieved very much.
Vladimir Putin - i also think he is a interesting person, a KGB agent that became president...
Charles de Gaulle - not the best politician to but he rebuilt France as a power...
Need to look for two more, no one comes to my mind...
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5. Antonio de Oliveira Salazar
4. Pierre Trudeau
3. Harry S. Truman
2. Pope John Paul II
1. Ghengis Khan
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Field Marshal Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington (he went on to become Prime Minister, so I'm including him here even though he did fail at politics ;) ).
Tony Benn
The Tolpuddle Martyrs
Clement Atlee
Robin Cook
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How about Maleatu Shakor or Heideran VII?
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Siddhartha Gautama - Most people think of Gautama Buddha as a spiritual leader, but his political impact was and still is massive. He started life at the top of the Vedic caste system, but he left that life of privilege behind to fight against the system that allowed it.
Jesus of Nazareth - Like Siddartha Gautama, Jesus did much to upset the balance of power in his own region. His spiritual teachings were a strong political force for equality and ideological self-sufficiency. He arguably did more than any other individual to bring about the fall of Rome.
Jean Jaques Rousseau - He was responsible for the idea of government as a social contract in Western political philosophy. His works were a guiding force behind the French and American revolutions respectively.
Mohandas Gandhi - There never was a truer anarchist. Sadly, we have already lost sight of who this man was and what he represented.
Claude Levi-Strauss - Strauss brought the concept of structuralism to anthropology, effectively putting the "savage" on the same level as white folks in terms of culture. His ideas served to morally delegitimize Western imperial expansion and the exploitation of foreign cultures.
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I'm going to focus on political figures in the relatively modern era (ie, 30 years war and forward) to simplify things, as its hard to really measure the impact of most political figures dating back millenia or even several hundred years. Some are undeniable (Jesus, Caesar, etc etc), but in terms of shaping the modern global system and the various political systems that exist as a part of it, they have marginal impact in comparison to many of the ones below, and/or were influences on the ones below but were no directly involved.
Some of those below were not politicians by profession, but public servants or philosophers that had very clear impact on political systems as we know them now. All are western figures, and the list in general is very western-centric, but not only am I weaker on my knowledge of the political history of the east (not to say I know nothing, just not nearly as much, and most of what I know is from the last 150 years), to a large degree western influences have had more impact on the global system than anything to come out of the east in the last 500 years, at least looking at it from a global perspective or that of various nations. Several billion people living in China and India will strongly disagree with me, however.
Cardinal Richelieu - Centralized political power in France, moving away from the feudal system and setting the stage for the rest of Europe to do the same. Planted the seeds of sovereign nation-states and international law. He is a very controversial figure, but his impact on modern politics and the formation of the modern political system is undeniable.
Jean Monnet - Behind-the-scenes guy who was a main architect of the ECSC (European Coal and Steel Community). Was originally formed as a way to put an end to the tensions between European powers that had led to two global wars in the previous 30 years, by forcing the antagonists to depend on each other economically and thus tying their success together. Was a precursor to the EU, and set the stage for dozens of other economically integrated groups across the globe; MERCOSUR; ECOWAS; ASEAN; NAFTA; just to name a few of the dozens. Revolutionized international politics in a way that many still don't quite acknowledge or appreciate.
Immanuel Kant - His work Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch written back in 1795 laid out the rough ideas that later went into the creation of the League of Nations (failed attempt) and later the United Nations. The formation of the LoN in particular represented a sea change in international politics from the last several hundred years in a direction that it had never really taken before.
Montesquieu - He compiled knowledge and ideas on the separation of powers in a government. While this is a concept dating back to ancient Greece, his work brought it into the limelight in the modern era. Every successful democracy has checks and balances built into the system. Those that have weak checks and balances or don't have them at all inevitably fall back into some sort of quasi-authoritarian or full-blown authoritarian system (see also; Russia under Putin).
Thomas Jefferson - Perhaps an Amero-centric point of view, but I feel that the American Revolution set the stage for dozens of other countries around the world and throughout the history of the last few hundred years. The eventual result of the revolution and political system that evolved from it has been a major influence in political systems literally on every continent on the globe, and ideas such as inalienable human rights and republicanism (not to be confused with the Grand Old Party--I'm talking about republic as a model of government) have had undeniable impact on the lives of billions. Many of our founding fathers had roles to play in these ideas and their implementation, but arguably Jefferson was the father of the founding fathers and his ideas shaped the movement more than any other.
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François-Dominique Toussaint Louverture -- Helped lead Haiti to freedom, and established a free state from a population of slaves, something had never happened before or since. He showed great political savvy, as well as military skill, in defeating the Spanish, the French and the Brits. That Haiti was latter economically destroyed by the geo-political actions of said powers shouldnt take away from his legacy.
Caesar -- The Roman Republic was a byzantine and intensely complex political, economic, cultural, religious and military system, where some of the greatest minds of the ancient world constantly struggled for status and rank. Caesar was killed basically because he had "won" a game that everyone had been playing for centuries, excelling in practically every area. The assumed he would become Emperor because that was the only thing he hadnt done yet.
Hannibal -- The greatest general in the history of the world, in my opinion. His tactical genius is still being studied, in fact it could be argued that he was the inventor of modern military thinking. Cannae was truly brilliant. What makes Hannibal so amazing isnt just that he crushed the Romans repeatedly, its the army he did it with. Heres what he did
1.) marched your army into enemy controlled territory thousands of miles from your home and supplies, an army much smaller than what you will face.
2.) meet random people, people youve barely heard of before. You share nothing, not language, religion, military doctrine, nothing...all you share is a desire to kill Romans and get shiny loot
3.) merge said random, unaligned groups into an army (on the fly) that will then take on the most disciplined, aggressive, skilled, and motivated army the world had seen up until that time. Keep in mind you will fight outnumbered and almost completely cut off from your supply lines.
4.) Crush said armies. Repeat until they literally decide to create a strategy thats based around not ever fighting you.
The only reason he lost is because he was unaware that the Roman creation of the nation-state had dramatically changed warfare. But as a tactical leader and a pure leader of men, really cant be beat in my opinion.
Thomas Jefferson. -- Yes, I'm an American, and the dude had tons of faults. But, creating the concept of a constitutional democracy was kinda a big deal. Most likely, if you're reading this, you're living in one, or in a political system heavily influenced by it.
Abraham Lincoln. -- Again, yes I'm an American, but Abraham Lincoln is one of the few historical figures who becomes greater the more you study him. In short, the more you know about him, the more amazing he was. To prove this isn't a wholly American view, or a modern one, I'll use one of Leo Tolstoy's quote "“We are still too near to his greatness, but after a few centuries more our posterity will find him considerably bigger than we do." “His genius is still too strong and too powerful for the common understanding, just as the sun is too hot when its light beams directly on us.”
Tolstoy always called him "the perfect human being".
Honorable mention: Metternich, Bolivar, Charlemagne, Qin Shihuang, Cyrus the Great, Alexander, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Churchill (on quotes alone),
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Not in any particular order as they all have pro's and cons about various aspects of who they are.
1: Charles de Gaulle
2: Churchill
3: Oliver Cromwell
4: Ghengis Khan
5: Imhotep (3rd Dynasty)
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Lenin
Bakunin
Franz Fanon
Emma Goldman
Aristotle
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4. Pierre Trudeau
o.0
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1) Arnold Schwarzenegger
2) Pol Pot
3) Jean Luc Picard
4) Genghis Khan
5) Spiderman
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4. Pierre Trudeau
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You no like?
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4. Pierre Trudeau
o.0
You no like?
I don't mind Trudeau, just a little surprised to see his name. :D
But I think he'd just barely make my top 5 Canadian political figures (Let's see... Sir John A., Mackenzie King, Tommy Douglas... uhm??? Ya, He'd be 4th) he wouldn't be top 5 globally though... to me anyway.
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Cicero - for being the consummate politician at a time when being a politician without a legion at your back took real balls.
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In no real set order:
Napoleon
Qin Shi Huang
Nelson Mandela
Saladin
Ivan IV of Russia (The 'Terrible' for non-Russia history dorks)
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Going with the 'doesn't mean I agree with them' motivation...
George Bush Sr. - a CIA man who became vice-, then president, with two sons as governors one who also became president?
Pierre Elliot Trudeau - the last great statesman
Alexander the Great - A genius in every sense of the word
Fidel Castro - Sorry but Cuba's economic problems have more to do with American embargoes than his policies
Mao Tse Tung - Communism equals feminism was a stroke of brilliance