Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Mizhara on 02 Apr 2011, 05:12
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You know, I've often considered Eve Online to be one of the more balanced MMOs out there. There's few things that are without counters, there's very little you can't face with equal numbers/methods or with even fewer numbers as long as your tactics are superior. You can face a superior force with superior logistics and maneuvers, you can face a smaller but more powerful force with superior numbers. There's no end to things you can do in Eve and for the very most part it's all very well balanced.
Today, I just realized there's one thing that's very imbalanced and enormously hard to counter. Fictional endeavors with no actual in-space assets/resources to point your own autocannons at. I'll use a recent IGS post as an example: House Kyriel announcement. (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1491153&page=1)
Here there's thousands of people pulled out of thin air, living in the Republic in a capsuleer's fictional endeavor. Good stuff RP wise and I have to say I very much like the detail put into the whole thing. Very interesting stuff...
... but impossible to counter. There's nothing to do military wise, no targets to shoot at, no nothing. There's no way to counter it by going "On the contrary, infiltrators in the encampment has shown indoctrination and blah blah" or whatever you choose to see in there since that would be godmoding other people's RP. Out of the blue, there's now thousands of Matari flocking around an Amarr capsuleer in Republic space preaching and spreading the Amarr faith.
Entirely without even the slightest risk of retribution or counter.
The imbalance doesn't materialize, however, until you realize there's just no way to do the same kind of thing in return. You can't go "I'm a Minmatar in the Empire, who just converted thousands of Amarrians and a few Holders to the Matari cause and non-slavery. The Holders are happily undergoing the Voluval and everything's so much better than the rest of the Empire!" without it being ridiculous.
Now, I'm not even hinting that Jesmine here (or Bloodbird as I believe the main/forum name was) isdoinitrong because it's very well wrought and not entirely inconceivable that something like this could exist... but there still isn't any counter. There's no way to engage in return, as far as I can tell.
What I'm seeking here is a bit of debate on what can be done to rectify this imbalance between factions that I didn't even know existed until today... and what can be done to make this kind of RP work without just steamrolling across 'the other faction'?
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Have you tried asking this Bloodbird person? It's only impossible to counter if they're not amenable to letting any other people in on what's happening there. That's not automatically the case, no?
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Oh, the example used is not meant to be derogatory, just so you know. I'll be contacting Bloodbird/Jesmine Kyriel in-game to see if there's RP possibilities around that particular venture. This thread isn't about that event in particular, but about what that event indicates when it comes to factional imbalance in such fictional ventures.
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I see your point but same for me : OOCly talk to the player to see what can be done. If someone has to get involved in delicate RP affairs like this, they have to keep in mind the possible consequences that are dictated by the PF itself. Remember Abdel Jarek. Same here. Tension has to arise around this at some point. So talk to the player, and see what can be done without automatically burning the estate to ashes (or maybe that is what the player wants, I don't know).
The imbalance doesn't materialize, however, until you realize there's just no way to do the same kind of thing in return. You can't go "I'm a Minmatar in the Empire, who just converted thousands of Amarrians and a few Holders to the Matari cause and non-slavery. The Holders are happily undergoing the Voluval and everything's so much better than the rest of the Empire!" without it being ridiculous.
Well, this is what you get to play the Republic. You have other cons and annoying things when you play in the Empire as well. No need to complain about that, every faction has its flaws to be exploited by the opposite faction.
And here, I do not even think that Kyriel is exploiting a flaw to convert all the Minmatar, it looks like some kind of utopic society. It would be impossible if the Republic was only filled with extremists, but it isn't.
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describe this imbalance?
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Thought I'd already done that. There's a linked example of the many ways one can just write oneself into subjugating a large chunk of the Republic, while there's no real way to do anything even remotely as impacting onto the Empire without it becoming ridiculous and unrealistic.
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the secret stairway, heterodoxical priests, free minmatar converts, and other things too. These things exist to state that many empire residents are convinced of things.
Anyway, so what if it's slightly unbalanced? Minmatar are just as easy to put into the one-dimensional stereotypes that everyone loves putting Amarr characters into.
Besides all that, it's not like players have any impact on things anyway. Not now, if ever (doubtful).
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I'd like to make sure I understand: the game imbalance is that players can write background material or OOG events that you can't shoot at or otherwise counter?
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I'd like to make sure I understand: the game imbalance is that players can write background material or OOG events that you can't shoot at or otherwise counter?
As far as I can tell, it is that CCP have written things such that conversion of minmatar is possible by brute force or by peaceful means, whereas the minmatar are written in such a way as to only be brute force in the ways of achieving their goals.
vOv It's not like other factions haven't been painted into a corner either.
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Hm, in that case I don't think I agree with the premise. A player of a Minmatar character could write about an Amarrian who visited the Republic, saw that it's not full of degenerates beating drums and the pernicious effects of slavery, and decided to free a bunch of his own slaves, blah blah blah.
Or perhaps the so-called "God-lovers" among the returned slaves see the tribal light and abandon the faith they were taught back in the Empire, etc etc.
The only real limitations here come from one's own creativity, not CCP.
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None of those things are Minmatar RP endeavors, Casiella. Those are all Amarr in origin, so unless I create a wholly fictional Amarr and RP him through Miz in what can only be called godmoding a faction, or in a way that makes it not Amarrian by actions or words, it's not achievable. The Amarr on the other hand can remain fully Amarrian and still exploit the entire hostile faction.
I wish it was that easy to just shrug it off like Louella does, but that kind of bothers me. It's hard enough to play as a Minmatar with strong views on the conflict, without the 'enemies' having that easy a time with tearing down your faction.
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This thread isn't about that event in particular, but about what that event indicates when it comes to factional imbalance in such fictional ventures.
To address the particular, it sounds like an ad for a PI colony. Nothing stopping Minmatar investors from doing the same in Amarr space. At least this one is from a liberal Holder in exile, instead of, say, PIE.
For the general issue, I don't know what to say, really. The Minmatar were subaltern for a long time. Cultural transmission was largely one way and Amarrian entities have little to gain by giving up their privilege to live in Matari fashion, particularly when they'd face prejudice from the people they were emulating. The rebellion left people in the Republic who don't want to be slaves, but still feel spiritually connected to some form of the Amarr religion. The current state of affairs seems believable to me, so I'm not exactly sure what the problem is, other than that it sometimes sucks to be part of a community that was badly damaged by generations of oppression.
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What is the issue seriously ? Kyriel did not say she converted all the Republic... @_@
What she is depicting already exists in the Republic, it is just another example of it.
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I'd make (ic) a subtle remark about staying safe and hope nothing horrible happens to them in the middle of the night. :P Other than that, it doesn't do much. Since its all textual anyway, say you've got the place monitored and sent out thugs to scare off potential Minmatar who take interest in it. Start a campaign or protest it just outside.
If they can say they did something on a planet that cannot really be contested, you can create anything to counter it, so long as they don't have any direct interaction. For instance: saying you burnt down their settlement is god-moding; saying you're scaring off potentials with thugs and surveilance is not, because the 'quantity' established is ambiguous.
There are options.
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THERE ARE NO HAPPY SLAVES HERE! THEY SACRIFICE THEMSELVES ON THE WALLS OF THE ENCAMPMENTS! I TAKE YOU THERE AND SHOW YOU MYSELF IN ONE HOUR!
(The Iraqi Information Minister could have a field day with this, tbh.)
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I don't see your issue Miz, not really. There are a myriad of things that can be done with this, many things that could happen.
Let's see... they can be left alone and nothing happens.
They can be subverted by outside forces, perhaps a UK invasion force led by mizhara.
Religious beliefs can swing the other way, and this minority in the majority-nation end up being assimilated into tribal faith, abandoning god and tearing their holy sites down.
They could be declared unwanted and asked to vacate the planet and the republic under treat of planetary carpet-bombing, perhaps.
The nearby republican settlements accept their existence and leave them alone with their faith.
All the nearby settlements decide to kick them out and the city is burned down and looted by an angry mob.
Kyriel can lose ruleship rights and be forced to hand control over to... who knows? After that, perhaps a new radical way opens.
All the while, House Kyriel may be declared war on and a nice war in space above the planet spans out.
As for what the Amarrians are doing, there are no mass-conversions or annexations of faith or anything like that, this is not an imperial invasion or mind-rape experiment or anything, I'd advice you to read the tread on EVE-O now for a detailed account IC. If you, or anyone, have ideas or wished for any IC interaction or events feel free to mail me or convo me (if I'm ever online long enough, that is) and we talk it over.
I don't mind RP at all, that's the reason for this story-arc. But I would appreciate that anyone who want to take part don't just god-mod their way to some desired victory sidelining my work and/or any realistic factors or any shit like that. Please don't, the Seri-Niki fiasco still lingers in my head, no offense intended though.
Off to bed, more on this another day for anyone interested.
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Alright, so... nearest I can tell, here are the parameters Mizhara is looking to operate in...
1. The operation must be "Minmatar", that is, it must originate within the Minmatar people/tribes, and not just a "tit for tat" thing within the Amarr Empire. For bonus points, directly involve Bloodbird's project here.
2. The effort must show that there are means beyond violence and outright coercion for getting Amarrians to leave the Empire and/or give up their slaves/faith/loyalty.
3. Most importantly, however, the effort must be demonstratably "true"; furthermore, it must be demonstratibly obstructible by others, preferably by application of in-game mechanics (i.e., pewpew).
Please correct me if I'm wrong in these assumptions, which are gleaned from many other discussions as well as this particular thread.
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Alright, so... nearest I can tell, here are the parameters Mizhara is looking to operate in...
1. The operation must be "Minmatar", that is, it must originate within the Minmatar people/tribes, and not just a "tit for tat" thing within the Amarr Empire. For bonus points, directly involve Bloodbird's project here.
2. The effort must show that there are means beyond violence and outright coercion for getting Amarrians to leave the Empire and/or give up their slaves/faith/loyalty.
3. Most importantly, however, the effort must be demonstratably "true"; furthermore, it must be demonstratibly obstructible by others, preferably by application of in-game mechanics (i.e., pewpew).
Please correct me if I'm wrong in these assumptions, which are gleaned from many other discussions as well as this particular thread.
Not too far off the mark. I've always found that fictional endeavors should be possible to respond to with either In-Space activity (pewpew or otherwise), or have a good solid chance of being 'countered' with fictional endeavors that are well within realism and capsuleer capabilities. It doesn't at all have to include Bloodbird's project here, as it was only used as an example of the imbalance in how the two factions can interact/combat each other's efforts within realistic parameters.
On the second mark, yes there needs to be non-violent alternatives. Violence is best dealt with in a non-fictional way anyway, through warfare in space. Of course, to make this happen, one-man alt corps is kind of out of the question since it just costs too much time, effort and money compared to the potential pewpew you can get out of it.
Basically, there's just too much limitation on what the Tribes side of things can do on a fictional level against Empire interests, and not enough on the other side of things.
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Ok, so I think I missed the exact point on this one – or more that I’m trying to figure out which of a couple things it might be.
What I first thought: There’s not much we can do to actively counter someone who claims to have done [whatever they did].
What it seems like it might have actually been: The Amarrians have more believable options for what they can do to the minmatar via </sip> than the Minmatar have to do back because of the nature of the PF.
If it’s the latter, I don’t have much to say, unfortunately, because that does kinda seem like the way things are according to the PF, though I’m always game for brainstorming.
The former, on the other hand, led to some thinking. As a couple of examples, let’s take Naqam’s happy chips and Merd’s orphanages in the Republic. The former occurred (I believe) back before facwar came in and RPers still believed in the use of wardecs to settle issues. Thus, Naqam was wardecked, and presumably the continuing distribution of the happy chips might have depended on the outcome of this war.
In the other case, we had Merd announcing on the IGS that he had (through a series of proxies) acquired/built several orphanages in the Republic. Didn’t really seem like there was much anyone could do about it despite great gnashing of teeth and exclamations of rawr. Then, someone with reasonably high republic something-or-other standings showed up on IGS and in the summit claiming to have identified the orphanages in question and, acting on orders from the RJD or some such, had apprehended, tried, and executed a bunch of the folks in charge as traitors. Unless there was some behind the scenes RP involved in finding said folks, it rather reeked of godmoding.
So, the question, how do we deal with conflicts like this that occur outside what the game mechanics let us do? Much of the point of EVE is the non-consensual combat, but that doesn’t really work here – or leads to godmoding. Only way to avoid that then, would be a little ooc contact between the players involved to sort out a fun way to play out the conflict that doesn’t one side or the other being godmoded. Otherwise, for example, rather than say, “Well, that was a setback,” and closing up shop (which I think is what merd did but I don’t really recall and can’t check the EO boards from work), he could have said “Huh, not sure who you just executed, everyone in my operation says they’re fine.” And then we have a clash of godmoders and it’s all sorts of fun to watch but not particularly fun RP for those involved.
I’m sure I had a point amidst all these interesting (to me) thoughts.
Oh right. Yeah. If you’re going to do something like this where /sip is going to lead to people being unhappy and wanting to stop your nefarious scheme, it’s best to be prepared for those people and have some idea how you want to handle the resulting conflicts. This will probably require some chatting OOC to figure out what makes sense, etc.
Or, of course, we could return to the days when RPers settled matters via wardecks. I heard there was a time when RPers were among the best pvpers in the game because of the perpetual wardecks – might be fun to get back to something like that.
… I think I made my point. Maybe not. Damned work-related distractions.
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Basically, there's just too much limitation on what the Tribes side of things can do on a fictional level against Empire interests, and not enough on the other side of things.
*gently strokes his pet Bloody Fist of Matar contacts
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I'm gonna have to agree with Miz on this one.
It gets pretty irritating to try to think up ways to prove something like planetary influence or other endeavors with no in-game mechanic to "prove" their existence. The problem is, with no mechanic, no moderator so to speak on the part of CCP, it comes down to the same set of equally futile options:
1). Player A makes his claim, and player B replies by saying A made the whole thing up. Which is a weird way to deal with politics. If one person says there are swarms of soldiers massacring a town, and someone disagrees, wouldn't there be, I dunno... a news team, someone with a camera, some teenager with a cell phone? You could argue that politicians can downplay or flatly deny events, but, for example, it isn't difficult to empirically decide whether or not the IRA attacked Belfast. Saying "clearly this is a ruse" is just absurd.
2). Player A makes his claim that he's killed player B's entire home colony with a particle beam accelerator cannon that he bought from the Sansha with Jovian FunDollars(TM) and powered with unicorn blood he stole from Sauron on a dare from Luke Skywalker. Player B accepts this claim, and now has to play his character's grief at losing his homeland to the aforementioned cannon.
3). Player A politely asks player B if he can kill player B's entire home colony with the aforementioned cannon, and player B decides the idea sucks, so once again the concept dies instantly.
4). A and B go with the first option, and while A continues to make announcements on the IGS about the success of his particle beam cannon and his conquest through space, B continually makes statements opposing this by showing live camera feed of the perfectly unharmed colony, which A denounces as advanced CGI, etc. etc. etc.
There's really no good option for how to approach these kinds of things. We saw it all over the Sansha events. The Sansha said they stole citizens, the players said their personal militias were killing toasters left and right, and in the end it all meant jack.
I really wish there were some mechanic by which we as players could assert our presence on planets, but at the moment, that's relegated to shit like 0.0 sov.
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Well, while I agree on that I still don't understand what Kyriel announcement has to do with that, because it just depicts what already can exist in the Republic.
Other than that, I might be wrong but it sounds like to me people are taking that as some kind of RP battle/struggle we absolutely have to win or sadface forever...
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Other than that, I might be wrong but it sounds like to me people are taking that as some kind of RP battle/struggle we absolutely have to win or sadface forever...
I wouldn't have said they have to win, it's just that, being eve, there needs to be some real competition. Win or lose, a struggle would be nice.
If you can't interact with it, then is it really relevant? It is the sort of thing that some people feel like their characters should care about, and have the resources to do something about, and can't affect it because it's basically decorative fluff with no in-game representation. It's basically like playing cops and robbers and yelling "I shot you" - "No you didn't" - not really satisfying to every type of player.
It seems to me that the combination of having a character who can and should do something about it, but having no way to do anything, is what gets people upset.
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In the end, roleplay is a performance art. It isn't really done for the benefit of the other person you're rp'ing with, unless the rp really is limited on that scale. It's for the benefit of the larger audience, the community, people who read the forums, etc.
The more convincing and compelling a narrative you craft for the benefit of the audience of that roleplay, the more successful and accepted your roleplay will be, as it is preferred by the audience.
Case study: Corporation A claims corporation B is interfering in affairs of Region X. Corporation A then provides in character intelligence about Corporation B's activities. Corporation B claims Corporation A is 'wrong', and that the information is propaganda. Let's assume for the sake of the discussion, Corporation B does have pilots, in some shape or form, in Region X.
The larger audience to this scenario will likely side with corporation A. They have provided an effort, in good faith, to interact with the facts of the situation in-game, provide an in character response to the activities of Corporation B.
Corporation B can, of course, claim that Corporation A is lying, but are we obligated to take them seriously? Of course not, not unless they can provide substantive proof that Corp A is lying.
In the end, the larger Eve Online community will favor Corporation A in this situation until corporation B responds with substantive roleplay of their own, such as a justification for their involvement in Region X, the terrible injustice Corporation A has done to the inhabitants of the region, et cetera.
Simply put, roleplaying is similar to a free market environment. The broader community will gravitate towards roleplay made in good faith and with basis to their arguments. Claiming something doesn't make it so, particularly when there is obvious evidence to the contrary available to the general public.
That's my view of it, anyway.
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Other than that, I might be wrong but it sounds like to me people are taking that as some kind of RP battle/struggle we absolutely have to win or sadface forever...
I wouldn't have said they have to win, it's just that, being eve, there needs to be some real competition. Win or lose, a struggle would be nice.
If you can't interact with it, then is it really relevant? It is the sort of thing that some people feel like their characters should care about, and have the resources to do something about, and can't affect it because it's basically decorative fluff with no in-game representation. It's basically like playing cops and robbers and yelling "I shot you" - "No you didn't" - not really satisfying to every type of player.
It seems to me that the combination of having a character who can and should do something about it, but having no way to do anything, is what gets people upset.
Ulf here pretty much nailed it right square on the head. While of course there's the OoC approach of going at the issue OoC and writing up the whole story OoC, that's really not something everyone'll cotton to. To me, that's not even RP as much as just writing fanfics.
The stuff is now on the IGS as 'troof' and while I have several characters that would have acted and quite severely so, upon such a venture, there's just no way to actually do it. The IGS stuff sets the precedence that capsuleers can spend their money on planetside stuff like such an encampment, but you can't just go "Yeah, I used a couple of billion of my own ISK to send saboteurs in to firebomb the whole damn thing through some method or other." or taking personal action. Hell, you can't even influence the political climate or public opinion on the matter. (Planetbound public opinion that is). There's no violent or non-violent approaches towards this, for characters that otherwise would and should be capable of these things.
So, I guess there's two imbalances. One is the factional imbalance, but the other lies in the "first come, first served" camp. Hell, if I did the same thing first, then I could claim any attempts to dislodge it to be godmoding or whatever. It's a little frustrating to have the motivation, the reasons, the means and the determination for doing something about this... and yet have no way to do it without it being just one big OoC fest where it's written out at the initial beginner's whims.
Again, this isn't primarly about Bloodbird's venture here. It's just used as an example.
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As I said above I agree on the fact that when you do such a thing, you have to accept that other players of the opposite faction will try to do something to counter it, or whatever. It is purely logical, and in this very case here, it would perfectly make sense to see some minmatar locals protesting against that, rioting around, or other troubles around or inside. Or maybe more : an attack of the bloody hand of matar or whatever. This has to be discussed with the player that has settled the idea in the first place.
But I disagree on this though : you can't forbid someone to have a little imagination and make some valuable RP that makes perfect sense. It would have been a minmatar enslaving camp or the godmoding stuff you mentionned, I would have been the first to say it is just ridiculous. But for posts like that I personnally find very immersive, I find it very harsh to react like that, especially as they do not even cause any harm on your own faction. They just broaden the amarrian spectrum of individuals. Though as I said, talk with the player. He has to understand that some radicals will naturally want to burn it down, a bit like they did with Jarek church.
Like Kaleigh said If they can say they did something on a planet that cannot really be contested, you can create anything to counter it, so long as they don't have any direct interaction. For instance: saying you burnt down their settlement is god-moding; saying you're scaring off potentials with thugs and surveilance is not, because the 'quantity' established is ambiguous.
My question is more : would have you said the same thing if say, the player did that on the ammatar/minmatar border zone ? I don't think so, which might prove my point on the fact it just annoys you because its in the Republic. Well, I suppose it is a difference of points of views concerning RP anyway. I don't consider RP as a struggle between player but as a tapestry of some kind that we are all elaborating together.
Edit : well anyway, no wonder why everyone is like that on the IGS, the goal of most people always seems to be "PUNCH HIM DOWN, PUNCH HIM DOWN". I can understand that from radicals of course, but it always sounds like a testosterone contest.
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I'm pretty much of the opinion that if it didn't happen in-game or in the PF, then it didn't happen at all.
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I seem to be having a day of agreeing with Amarrians. This is troubling.
Let me see if I can frame this in ways that meet the moderation standards.
Yes, you can agree to build a fictional sandcastle and then have someone else protest it or knock it down. I think that's more like collaborative fiction than RP, though. Unless it's someone else doing it really well so I can't tell that that's what they're doing I tend to find it irritating for the reasons others have given earlier in this thread.
I offer for discussion the proposition that -- like PvP -- macro-RP in EVE is non-consensual. You can do whatever you can think of to do: a combination of the game system and the success of your RP in convincing others to act will determine whether you succeed.
I strongly prefer it if RP that's about things-that-'really'-happen is built around things that I can really interact with, even in ways the originators didn't intend. So if there's a presence somewhere, sneak in and pitch a tower that I can scout out, watch, maybe plan to take down. If you say you're going to Goinard or M-M for a drink, fly there so I can, er, "interact" with you on the route. (I, personally, dislike the use of Interbus as a public taxi service because it denies this interactibility, but I do use holo and VR.)
People on IGS saying they're doing something and that NPC people are reacting to it in certain ways contribute to my avoidance of that forum. (This might not be seen as a great loss. ;) ) I'll do my shared story-telling in less-public venues, and not claim it affects the cluster beyond the group of people involved.
Which brings me to a point Julianus raised. In a post I mostly agreed with, he began with a statement that I quibble with:
In the end, roleplay is a performance art. It isn't really done for the benefit of the other person you're rp'ing with, unless the rp really is limited on that scale. It's for the benefit of the larger audience, the community, people who read the forums, etc.
My roleplay is to benefit me and the circles of people I play with. If others enjoy the parts of it they see that's fine, but I only rarely do something intending it as public entertainment. "The forums" are almost incidental to my roleplay. The main exception would be that I love world-building and will happily cast my net wide when looking for people to develop societies and detail groups, places and practices.
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Ah, but see Matariki, you keep your 'audience' very small, confined to you and your friends. If you didn't believe the roleplay was for the benefit of those other than yourself, then your character needn't communicate with anyone, talk with anyone, and you wouldn't make an effort to participate in greater world-building excercises. You could merrily construct such concepts in an introverted manner, hoarding the results of your efforts like a pile of dragon's gold.
But the real wonders of RP, and where personal enjoyment is derived from it, for most people anyway, comes from sharing that treasure and effort with other people. Having other actors in the cast, breaking the fourth wall and interacting with the larger audience, that's what makes RP fun.
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Interesting topic. My gut reaction was to agree with Mizhara. But reading the response from Bloodbird/Jesmine about his openness to allow narrative involvement/messing with - his plotline (+in space wars with his corp) is intriguing.
Quick question to Blood/Jesmine ...
If SF wardecced your outfit for 24 hours and brought a bunch of industrials + escort to the planet and established some PI settlements and maintained a couple of hours of space superiority would you be prepared to write-in the establishment of a well-armed anarchist cell in your city that was going to start agitating for the overthrow of your Amarrian ruling class?
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Ah, but see Matariki, you keep your 'audience' very small, confined to you and your friends. If you didn't believe the roleplay was for the benefit of those other than yourself, then your character needn't communicate with anyone, talk with anyone, and you wouldn't make an effort to participate in greater world-building excercises. You could merrily construct such concepts in an introverted manner, hoarding the results of your efforts like a pile of dragon's gold.
But the real wonders of RP, and where personal enjoyment is derived from it, for most people anyway, comes from sharing that treasure and effort with other people. Having other actors in the cast, breaking the fourth wall and interacting with the larger audience, that's what makes RP fun.
For you.
I wonder if one of the differences here is that my world-building and aspects of my RP can happen by turning to the person next to me for a chat about our clan. Also that in what feels like the whimsical and retcon-able world of EVE, I like to have a fair bit of my attention focused on a small portion of the world that doesn't directly affect other things and won't attract the attention of the powerful but whimsical world-changing gods. I'm good with ambiguity and different viewpoints (loved Glorantha, for instance) but I find the contradictions, changes and uncertainties about some fundamental things in EVE canon frustrating and distressing. It's hard to extrapolate and world-build when the foundations are so unstable. So I have my clan, my corp, and the alliance we share, and enough people to enjoy those with.
And, er, Casiella did ask if I'd post more background about those. I'm just not sure how much it would be generalisable because I tend to play strongly "this is how Atamahara does it: there are lots of different types of clans since the Rebellion and Foundation, and the clan over there may be very different". Still thinking about that.
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Interesting topic. My gut reaction was to agree with Mizhara. But reading the response from Bloodbird/Jesmine about his openness to allow narrative involvement/messing with - his plotline (+in space wars with his corp) is intriguing.
Quick question to Blood/Jesmine ...
If SF wardecced your outfit for 24 hours and brought a bunch of industrials + escort to the planet and established some PI settlements and maintained a couple of hours of space superiority would you be prepared to write-in the establishment of a well-armed anarchist cell in your city that was going to start agitating for the overthrow of your Amarrian ruling class?
@ Jade:
I posted the IGS tread for two reasons; it made sense IC to do so and I was hoping there might be some kind of reaction. I was just not sure what exactly the reaction might be, or who it might come from, or how that might affect Jesmine as a toon and so forth.
So no, I would not mind some collaborative work with SF/you at all, even if I try to stay clear of you IC and OOC, normally.
However, before we do anything it would be nice to know we are both on the same page; kindly explain to me (here or in mail or what, all the same for me) what exactly you think the situation on this planet is, and how it all work, because from the way you asked the questions I get the feeling you may have miss-understood a few things.
No point having two people working together while seeing two different pictures, after all.
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Ah, but see Matariki, you keep your 'audience' very small, confined to you and your friends. If you didn't believe the roleplay was for the benefit of those other than yourself, then your character needn't communicate with anyone, talk with anyone, and you wouldn't make an effort to participate in greater world-building excercises. You could merrily construct such concepts in an introverted manner, hoarding the results of your efforts like a pile of dragon's gold.
I get the impression that you think the people doing RP are like actors and everyone else is the audience, and the actors should publish it so that everyone else can appreciate their story; and that Matariki (and indeed myself, and quite a few other people in GRD, and perhaps the wider EM) think that the people doing the RP are the audience, so that if nobody other than the people directly involved finds out, that's not a downside. And if people outside the ones that were there find out, they're likely to do so via rumour and personal recountings which are prone to error and misunderstandings1.
If it would make sense for Matariki or Ulf to go and talk to some other person we've met, then they will, and that person too becomes both actor and audience. The bits of the universe we create are gradually exposed like it would be in the real world. If you have contact with people from Atamahara, you'll find out about bits of Atamahara as it would make sense. You don't have anything to do with Atamahara? you don't need to know.2.
It also seems that you are (or perhaps it's just I am) conflating two things; the discussion about things in the world which anyone could find out (see for example the Voluvala thread http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1373.0 ) and discussion about what people are doing in that world, or about their private affairs which are more difficult for people to find out about.
It does not make sense to me to post stuff on IGS which Ulf wouldn't want public. I have actually posted on IGS, but only when it made sense to do so IC.
1, 2 I consider these features, not bugs.
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Quick question to Blood/Jesmine ...
If SF wardecced your outfit for 24 hours and brought a bunch of industrials + escort to the planet and established some PI settlements and maintained a couple of hours of space superiority would you be prepared to write-in the establishment of a well-armed anarchist cell in your city that was going to start agitating for the overthrow of your Amarrian ruling class?
I know that the question wasn't aimed at me, but I'm going to answer it anyway :)
In the above example all that would have been acheived is the construction of some industrial facilities on a planet.
If the planet was in an Amarrian system, then it stands to reason that the planet is governed by an Amarrian administration. Since the administration is happy for anyone to drop PI stuff onto the planet, then I think that we can safely assume that either:
* They would have some say over who get to works to work at the facilites, ie only the locals get jobs there
* If off-worlders are allowed, then they would either be segregated from the native population or be closely monitored and have to abide by local laws regarding firearms etc.
Indeed, in the latter case the authorities could use the presence of SF personnel to root out potential trouble-makers!
All this assumes that PI facilities actually have a workforce and aren't completely mechanised of course.
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Always an interesting topic.
Regarding unassailable fiction/story threads:
We can write IC circles around each other all day and night, and unless story/plots are agreed ahead of time between conflicting parties, it quickly becomes extremely silly and generally uninteresting he said/she said ad infinitum. It also removes any chance for unconsentual involvement from those who may be interested but are not fans of OOC involvement behind the scenes for the sake of a good story.
The only neutral arbitrator we have in this game to effect these sorts of things are actions in space. We are limited in our toolsets to have results that can not be disputed/argued, and actions in space are often the best tools. Actions in space don't solve every issue or circumstance, but in my eyes and I know a lot of yours, it does add credibility and a chance to effect the outcomes. No I can't destroy your planetary colony (yet), but I can as Jade suggested send ships in, industrials, and blockade the space around the colony, adding credibility to my side of the story, etc.
Wardecs are also limited tools in this regard but we generally seem to accept results of combat as determining quite a few things RP wise, as it is an unbiased and indisputable arbitrator of results.
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Well as much as I agree, I don't know how many of you have RPed on other MMOs when you constantly have to resort to such things because the game system just does not support them ? Bar brawls to a faction military base setting up in the enemy's territory ? We always have to use OOC communication behind, it is the very basis of any roleplay event.
And this is an event we are talking about.
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TBH, this: (unless its is a poetry contest or something equally removed from realpolitik)
...well anyway, no wonder why everyone is like that on the IGS, the goal of most people always seems to be "PUNCH HIM DOWN, PUNCH HIM DOWN". I can understand that from radicals of course, but it always sounds like a testosterone contest.
But that's a digression. On topic: What we are talking about is essentially out-of-game roleplay. It is in-character, and set within the EVE universe. And it has no in-game mechanics, though it can have in-game results, if for example your character got mad and made war in-game.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it - sounds fun in fact - but just be aware of it's limitations and how it requires either great flexibility to whatever unpredictable contribution someone may inject, or lots of ooc talk to set the rules straight before/during. And this does happen a lot on IGS already.
Summary: taking roleplay out of eve rules means the players become the 'games master' and have to enforce their own boundaries, since in-game mechanics no longer govern the interactions.
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I guess the real question is: could a scenario have been re-arranged to better allow interaction in-game with opportunities for opposition to prevent the antagonist from succeeding? Perhaps. Was this their goal and should it be?
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Well as much as I agree, I don't know how many of you have RPed on other MMOs when you constantly have to resort to such things because the game system just does not support them ?
I've never played another MMO before eve (and only a week or so of LoTRO as a trial), so I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around this.
It seems to me that one of the attractions of Eve for many people is the genuine striving between people/corps/alliances/factions, and that it is difficult to reconcile arranging a conclusion before hand through OOC channels with that striving for dominance.
When I hear stories about the ancient history of EM where there were OOC agreements with our enemies regarding when to fight and how many ships to bring, I just shake my head and think it was a different age. I have difficulty imagining that happening now. That's probably because the immersionists in EM have ascendency at the moment, and they'd rather negotiate and choose actions from the point of view of their characters, not the point of view of their players.
I think the stories are probably different in character, but I don't know that either is inherently better or worse.
Summary: taking roleplay out of eve rules means the players become the 'games master' and have to enforce their own boundaries, since in-game mechanics no longer govern the interactions.
I agree. Further, I think if you have been fighting as hard as you can in your games-rules interactions, it's difficult to compromise enough for non-rules interactions to be satisfying for both sides.
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Summary: taking roleplay out of eve rules means the players become the 'games master' and have to enforce their own boundaries, since in-game mechanics no longer govern the interactions.
I agree. Further, I think if you have been fighting as hard as you can in your games-rules interactions, it's difficult to compromise enough for non-rules interactions to be satisfying for both sides.
For better and for worse, this.
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Ah, but see Matariki, you keep your 'audience' very small, confined to you and your friends. If you didn't believe the roleplay was for the benefit of those other than yourself, then your character needn't communicate with anyone, talk with anyone, and you wouldn't make an effort to participate in greater world-building excercises. You could merrily construct such concepts in an introverted manner, hoarding the results of your efforts like a pile of dragon's gold.
I get the impression that you think the people doing RP are like actors and everyone else is the audience, and the actors should publish it so that everyone else can appreciate their story; and that Matariki (and indeed myself, and quite a few other people in GRD, and perhaps the wider EM) think that the people doing the RP are the audience, so that if nobody other than the people directly involved finds out, that's not a downside. And if people outside the ones that were there find out, they're likely to do so via rumour and personal recountings which are prone to error and misunderstandings1.
If it would make sense for Matariki or Ulf to go and talk to some other person we've met, then they will, and that person too becomes both actor and audience. The bits of the universe we create are gradually exposed like it would be in the real world. If you have contact with people from Atamahara, you'll find out about bits of Atamahara as it would make sense. You don't have anything to do with Atamahara? you don't need to know.2.
It also seems that you are (or perhaps it's just I am) conflating two things; the discussion about things in the world which anyone could find out (see for example the Voluvala thread http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1373.0 ) and discussion about what people are doing in that world, or about their private affairs which are more difficult for people to find out about.
It does not make sense to me to post stuff on IGS which Ulf wouldn't want public. I have actually posted on IGS, but only when it made sense to do so IC.
1, 2 I consider these features, not bugs.
Perhaps I wasn't quite clear, I don't think you came away with the perspective I intended, in any case.
Clearly, the participants in a given roleplaying situation, are, indeed, actors, by definition. Those not directly impacted by that event are the 'audience'. In roleplay the actors and the audience are defined and redefined dynamically. Silent readers of a forum or blog may put their ships and pilots on the line and participate in a war, for instance, because they were motivated by the roleplaying going on. That's called breaking the fourth wall.
I draw the distinction between actors and audience, because, in some case, not everybody is involved in everything always. Sometimes, people just want only actors. But the audience doesn't need to exist right now at this instant. Some future audience, people reading forum archives, for instance, will come across it an appreciate the roleplay that occurred.
Electus Matari and Gradient are well-known for having highly insulated roleplaying environments, and that isn't a bad thing at all, really. But I believe, still, that you're not roleplaying for your own selfish reasons. I doubt very much any of this is treated with same as a random day dream about 'how great would it be if there was a society or civilization like this". Eve online roleplay is about interaction with other players, primarily because the game is about interactions with other players. And thus the dynamic of actors/audience is introduced.
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Well as much as I agree, I don't know how many of you have RPed on other MMOs when you constantly have to resort to such things because the game system just does not support them ?
I've never played another MMO before eve (and only a week or so of LoTRO as a trial), so I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around this.
It seems to me that one of the attractions of Eve for many people is the genuine striving between people/corps/alliances/factions, and that it is difficult to reconcile arranging a conclusion before hand through OOC channels with that striving for dominance.
When I hear stories about the ancient history of EM where there were OOC agreements with our enemies regarding when to fight and how many ships to bring, I just shake my head and think it was a different age. I have difficulty imagining that happening now. That's probably because the immersionists in EM have ascendency at the moment, and they'd rather negotiate and choose actions from the point of view of their characters, not the point of view of their players.
I think the stories are probably different in character, but I don't know that either is inherently better or worse.
Summary: taking roleplay out of eve rules means the players become the 'games master' and have to enforce their own boundaries, since in-game mechanics no longer govern the interactions.
I agree. Further, I think if you have been fighting as hard as you can in your games-rules interactions, it's difficult to compromise enough for non-rules interactions to be satisfying for both sides.
Bureeiku said it better than I did. I was mentionning all the RP that can't be taken in account by the game mechanisms. Eve is awesome for this, a lot of things are included and can be decided by the gameplay itself (1000 times more than in any other MMO, because its a damn good sandbox). But whatever we can try, there will always be some situations where we have to resort to the old OOC mediation between players because the gameplay does not support it. The most common examples being in a RP bar channel when you have a brawl, or even when the admin is kicking you out because you breached a purely RP fictionnal rule. All of this is not part of the game mechanic.