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So, I've been asked in-character several times to consider putting up a detailed explanation of the Caldari State and how the Megacorporations and corporate structure all ties in together. Obviously, as I'm not the only Caldari RPer around and certainly not the authority on the matter, I wanted to draft a rough copy and post it here so people (primarily other Caldari RPers) could read over it and give their inputs and ideas (even if your input is "Bah, don't do this!")
So, this is only the first part of the entire post (limited by word count):
It has been requested of me more than once to create a detailed explanation of the composition of the Caldari State and how corporations work within it. I will state from the beginning that in order to understand the Caldari State you must understand the Caldari and to understand the Caldari you must sincerely step away from your predispositions and viewpoints and seek to adopt the mindset of the Caldari people.
Disclaimer: The purpose of this thread is not to convince anyone that the Caldari way of life is superior to any other, nor that anyone should adopt our way of life for any reason other than choosing to do so. It is simply our way of life.
Megacorporations and Citizenship
If we take into account the various regions and systems that compose the Caldari State and visually picture them as a puzzle with nine interlocking pieces of various shapes and sizes, each puzzle piece represents a governing authority over that region of the State. Eight are the Megacorporations and the ninth is independent contractors and license brokers. The eight Megacorporations are divided into three principle blocs, representing their business philosophy and intercorporate/international policy:
Patriots
Patriot corporations are largely known for their support of the old principles and traditions of the Caldari and a desire for a strong, independent State. These corporations are:
- Kaalakiota Corporation
- Lai Dai Corporation
- Wiyrkomi Corporation
Liberals
Liberal corporations are known for their support of strong international relationships, international business practices and progressive public policies. These corporations are:
- Ishukone Corporation
- Hyasyoda Corporation
Practicals
Practical corporations are known for their ruthless business practices and their focus on practicality over ethics or traditions as well as the most expansionist business policies. These corporations are:
- CBD Corporation
- Nugoeihuvi (NOH) Corporation
- Sukuuvestaa Corporation
Each Corporation maintains its own paramilitary police and security force which operates within the regions governed by that specific megacorporation. (These are not to be confused with the Caldari Navy).
With this understanding, it is important to note that "Caldari Citizen" is a term used only by those outside of the State to refer collectively to those within it. The Caldari refer to ourselves as a citizen of whatever megacorporation we are associated with, such as "Wiyrkomi Citizen" or "Ishukone Citizen." It is also important to understand that life may differ greatly between citizens of various corporations, the daily activities and experience of a Wiyrkomi Citizen are likely to be very different from that of a Sukuuvestaa Citizen. Citizenship in a certain corporation is determined by the area in which you live and the corporation in which you work. It is common for a child to continue to work within the same megacorporation as their parents, so a child born to Sukuuvestaa Citizens is likely to work for Sukuuvestaa Corporation when they are of the age. However, exceptions do occur and it is possible to change your corporate citizenship either by your own will or by the direction of your corporation (that is to say that one corporation may transfer a citizen to another corporation for various reasons).
Duty, Responsibility and Identity
Perhaps the most confusing thing about the Caldari corporate structure and State is the duty of the citizen and the duty of the corporation. It is the duty of the citizen to apply their talents, abilities and time toward the corporation under which they are a citizen. The citizen is expected to apply themselves thoroughly to their corporation, to perform their responsibilities and duties with diligence and to comply with corporate policy. This creates the workforce of the corporation and allows it to provide its products and services both internally and externally, thus each citizen plays an important role in the success of the corporation and, in this way, invests into it.
The corporation is then expected to provide food, housing and education to its citizens. This is not to say that you must eat what you are given, when you are given it or that you must live where you are told to live (though many do). It is the duty of the corporation to see that its citizens are provided for in these ways, housing is provided for the citizen as part of their compensation for labor, food is provided in the same manner (house decorations and locations are often able to be chosen by the citizen as well as what foods to eat). Education is thoroughly in control of the corporation, a child will be given an education appropriate to their interests and aptitudes, directed by the corporation in order to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the corporation (as well as the standard of living for the child by allowing them to work within their interests and aptitudes). As the corporation's efficiency grows, its ability to provide jobs, housing and food expands, its political and business influence expands and everyone within the corporation benefits.
Because of this structure, a Caldari identifies entirely with their corporate identity. Just as one would be a Wiyrkomi Citizen, the identity of the individual derives directly from their position within that corporation. The higher the position within a corporation, the better the benefits (housing, education) for the individual as well as their family. Thus it is common for an individual to work diligently and consider it an honor to provide for themselves and their families through service to the corporation, which then benefits the corporation and subsequently benefits everyone within the corporation as explained above.
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I should note that this write-up is very specifically catered to Malcolm's way of speaking and how he would explain it to people. The opening is obviously entirely his own sentiments and the write-up is designed to be factual but still carefully politically written from Malcolm's Patriot mindset.
My main thing is that I want to give others a chance to fix inadequacies or discrepancies as well as check the "facts" of it before I make a public post on it because I don't want to presume to speak for the whole Caldari RP bloc.
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InB4Hamish
Also, nice post, will read in detail when I get a few minutes later today. :)
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Good write-up! :cube:
What should be noted is the situation of those who fell out of the corporate system, mostly by their own faults, such as significant corruption, theft and other criminal activities. They are very unlikely to be employed by other (state) corporations and will very likely loose their citizenship and be forced to live at the fringes of society. It is unclear how descendants of these cases are handled. Since there is always the need for skilled labour I would assume that screenings would be done and, maybe depending on the severity of the case, chances to restore the 'family honor' would be handed out - or an offer of adoption.
There's no clear PF on all of that, only the sentence "The Caldari State offers both the best and the worst living conditions in the cluster.".
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Nicely done. I should note that as far as word count goes the cap is very large so you should be able to fit quite a bit in there. Just have a look at the channel list sticky to get a feel for that, it took a long time for that to actually run out of space in the first post.
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Ya Misan, I was talking about the character limit on the EVE-O forums, it was typed into it first just so I'd know what my limit was. I'll have part two up shortly. Thanks for the feedback guys!
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InB4Hamish
:lol:
Malcolm, I would not use the term citizen to describe any Caldari. Ishukone Employee, KK Employee, etc. Sometimes Caldari maybe Employees of one corporation, but live as tenants of another corporation and thus fall under the regulations of both corporations. I tend to think of most things in the State being in an explicit contract of some kind. When a person in "modern Caldari society" is not on a contract of some kind, they fall through the cracks.
The Federation & Republic have what we think of as citizens. The State does not have classical citizens, it has denizens. In the State, you only have the rights, protections, and privileges afforded to you by contract (employee, housing, education, etc). This of course allows for abuse when traditional Caldari culture is contorted by societies that do not hold to Heiian (Gallente) and personal greed is seen as acceptable by those in positions of power.
In the Federation (& Republic to a less extent), "a government by the people" is seen as the best check on human greed (greed of the masses vs greed of individuals in power). In the State, tradition (Heiian), shareholders, boards of directors, and the employees, tenants, etc are the checks on those in power. Now, with the rise of Tibus Heth & the CPD, there is a 3rd-party check more akin to the Federation's (& Republic's) government. It should be noted that Tibus Heth's domestic policies work to address the very complaints and concerns Federation observes have had towards the State prior to his rise. It is the support for his foreign policy that has them all up-in-arms, literally.
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Good points Hamish, I'll add a few of my own.
I tend to avoid the use of the "living on contract" because that implies that you have to undergo an actual contract process (which isn't stated anywhere and is rather counter intuitive to the indoctrination of the citizens). It's more like the employees of a corporation are simply afforded provisions as part of their employment (from their parent corporation). The issue is the picture that the word "contract" creates isn't what seems to be described by the Caldari State write-up, which focuses more on the seemless indoctrination of employees by their corporations. (Born into SuVee, raised with SuVee radio and television programming, going to SuVee schools, etc) With no formal contract ever being written or signed (though the details of an employee are kept on record at the corporate level).
Also, keep in mind that Malcom is writing this up specifically to help outsiders understand how things work. The reason I'm using the word "citizen" is because that's how people refer to those living within a government system, thus Malcolm is using "citizen" to make sense to the readers. I agree with you from an internal perspective that the word "citizen" is a less-than-accurate term in the State but the idea is to try and make sense to an external reader. (Does that make sense?)
The explanation of how the State Executor fits in (and the Provists) will be added later (in part 2 hopefully).
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<- Not Hamish ;)
Employment tends to have a contract associated with it.
The children of employees are afforded certain benefits offered by the employer (corporation). When the student reaches a particular education level, they stop being supported by their parents' contract(s) with the "parent" corporation and begin to incur obligations to the corporation of their own.
Someone whose parents always worked for SuVee went to SuVee schools (on their parents' contract(s)) and had access to SuVee approved media in the SuVee provided community. At some point, they are given the option to "sign on the dotted line" and sign up to work for SuVee for X time following their continuing education within the SuVee system/opportunity to go the "independent" schools. Down the road, other services they grew up using come with a commitment to work for SuVee for Y time, etc.
For many Caldari, the contract is just a form they sign to progress to the next part of their life. It however binds them to the corporation (and the corporation them).
In the Federation, particular aspects of life are provided by local/regional/Federal governments and there is may or may not be an obligation tied to those services.
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Damnable tubes ate my post...
Although 'citizen' may not be sufficiently precise, given the ties of loyalty\\indoctrination within the megacorporate structure, mere 'employee' doesn't feel right either.
I wanna say that contracts are probably 'signed', but most of them are just dictated by the corporate structure to the mass who make up what might be called a bargaining unit or maybe just job category in the our world. (Though of course the amount of bargaining done is going to be slim to nil, given the power and information asymmetry inherent in the relationship.) And given that the contract process is defined in relation to law made by the corporations themselves, the 'signing' could easily be something as simple as swiping your ID card at the first factory complex to which you've been assigned//offered a position.
The 'signing' of a contract is probably something that's done at the age of majority, which in this case would largely be defined in relation to the time when aptitude testing indicates no further schooling would be cost-effective. Before that, children are governed and protected by the parent corporation as outlined in the contract that their parents signed, once upon a time.
I imagine contracts for groups of employee\\citizens are sometimes traded in the way that royal marriages once were, to cement alliances and diffuse conflicts. I think I remember reading somewhere that Caldari that work at more than one corp in their lives tend to become more cynical, and I can't imagine that only happens through extractions and other sorts of employee poaching.
Or maybe I'm just rationalizing something I've already written into my character's backstory...
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I agree with Dex that "citizen" doesn't quite catch the nature of the relationship, particularly since the employer doesn't have an obligation towards employees it no longer requires. I went to look at Svetlana Scarlet's The Caldari Dialogues (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Caldari_Dialogues) for alternative ideas... and found she uses "citizen". She does use it more sparingly, though.
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<- Not Hamish ;)
Right, Dex - sorry. (I knew that)
I suppose I can see where you're coming from with that viewpoint on contracts. I just never saw it that way because it seems to me like citizens of the State don't really have that option, they just grow up knowing they're going to be working for the State. I mean, if we take into consideration how the Japanese had mass internship for students as they got near high school, it would essentially just educate them into a field seemlessly. I sort of saw the State doing things the same way, further playing into the "corporate identity" mindset "this is just who I am."
It seems like having them sign a dotted line saying "I will work for you" breaks that identity immersion to some extent. Just my opinion though.
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Dex makes a good point about the terminology. The word "citizen" is convenient for the audience because we understand what you mean--someone who lives in the Caldari State--but if you don't explain how a Caldari citizen's relationship with their government is different from a modern real world citizen's, something is lost. Everyone in the State is an employee of a corporation or they have fallen through cracks, gone off the grid, left the reservation, etc. A couple of points from my own perspective on the State to help magnify the scope...
- The State is not really defined by geographic boundaries, but rather consists of the assets and interests of the Big Eight.
- The Big Eight are in many ways smaller empires unto themselves. The CEP can't really tell one mega to do any particular thing and power is diffused and decentralized across the State. You might consider the State to be vaguely confederate in its political organization.
- The State has a population measured in trillions.
- That means there are at least 1 trillion+ people who are employed directly by one of the Big Eight megacorps or their subsidiaries.
- There are thousands of subsidiary corporations.
- Citizens of the State sign contracts with and are employees of these corporations, not of the State itself.
- One is not Caldari because they are of the State. One is Caldari because they are of a sovereign corporation.
Below is a (partial) list of chrons, news, and evelopedia articles that are relevant to Caldari PF:
List of Official News Articles Involving the Caldari State (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=utype&tyid=2&cid=500001)
Mind Clash (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=feb01)
Fatal & the Rabbit (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=mar02)
Tyma Raitaru (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=may05)
War of Independence: The Early Days (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=jul02)
War of Independence: The Breakout (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=aug01)
War of Independence: The War Drones On (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=aug04)
The Right Man, the Right Place (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=nov02)
The Sarpati Family (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=may01-02)
Mordu's Legion (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=oct01-01)
New Horizons (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=dec01-01)
State Factionalism (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=03-dec-01)
The Science of Never Again (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=03-dec-02)
Cold Wind (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=28-04-06)
Children of Light (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-july-04)
Methods of Torture: The Caldari (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=13-02-07a)
In the Electric Museum (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=04-06-07)
Terms (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=02-07-07)
Murder and Creation (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=21-04-08)
With Acknowledgements to Mad Dogs (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=02-06-08)
The Dark End of Space (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=07-07-08)
The Better Part of Valor (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=14-07-08)
Masks of Authority (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=28-07-08)
A World Where No Such Road Will Run (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=15-09-08)
Tomorrow A Dream (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=06-10-08) <-- quite significant to the topic
Wild Earth (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=13-10-08)
Under the Sea, the City (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=24-11-08)
Taught Thoughts (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-06-09)
The Ever-Turning Wheels (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=27-07-09)
Blind Auction (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=07-09-09)
For the State (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=30-11-09)
The Slow Disease (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=22-02-10) (Die, Heth, die...)
Caldari Funds Unlimited (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=25-03-10)
The State (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari#Megacorporations)
State of the State 110.06.11 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/State_of_the_Caldari_State,_110.06.11)
The Caldari Financial System (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Caldari_Financial_System) (extremely detailed)
Caldari Business Tribunal (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Business_Tribunal)
Black Rise (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Black_Rise)
Games of State (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Games_of_State) (Practical propaganda)
This Is the State (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/This_Is_The_State) (Patriot propaganda)
Views of the Caldari (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Views_of_the_Caldari) (another player's non-PF view of the State)
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A suggestion for what to call a Caldari citizen: worker. (työntekijä)
So far this sounds exactly like I imagined the Caldari State to function. I was going to complain about the white-washing but then I read that this was an IC post for the ISG, which makes more sense.
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I imagine contracts for groups of employee\\citizens are sometimes traded in the way that royal marriages once were, to cement alliances and diffuse conflicts. I think I remember reading somewhere that Caldari that work at more than one corp in their lives tend to become more cynical, and I can't imagine that only happens through extractions and other sorts of employee poaching.
Or maybe I'm just rationalizing something I've already written into my character's backstory...
Standing outside the traditional power structures are two distinct groups of Caldari who together make up the "disassociated." The first group is composed of those who've fallen off the bottom rung of the megacorp ladder. While they retain their citizenship, in practice these few people simply fall through the cracks between the megacorps and have essentially disappeared from the system, usually permanently. The second group includes those who've found themselves moving between two or three different corporations—usually upper-middle management transferred between corporations in a giant game of pass-the-personnel—and who have in the process realized quite how thoroughly indoctrinated the average employee is.
Those from the first group tend to take part on some level in the criminal underworld, while those from the second often end up doing very well in non-standard careers or in unlikely places within the corporate structure, united solely by their lack of adherence to any franchised corporate ideology. Their opinions as a result are incredibly diverse, and as long as this discreteness remains the case (and their membership stays as small as it traditionally is), they'll continue to exert little significant pressure on State affairs.
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If this were World of Darkness, I'd want a clan book for each of the corporations.
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Again, really good input everyone and thanks.
Ken, I've read most of of what you linked - I'll definitely read over the others. The explanations of those that have "fallen through the cracks" and how "Executor Heth" fits in was supposed to be in part two, but I wanted to see how part 1 looked before I put part 2 up for review and editing. They'll be posted together on IGS so there won't be any confusion, but I figure it's easier to scrutinize them one part at a time.
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More follow-up... I doubt the interplay of the Caldari factions is so simple as to be condensed into left-right politics, but that is one way to get a quick look at where the elements of State society stand.
(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/7565/thestate.png)
Gurista -«- Disassociated -«- Liberal -«- Practical -»- Patriot -»- Provist -»- Dragonaur
Guristas
- Organized crime underworld of Caldari society
- Effectively an outlaw ninth megacorp
- Willing to do almost anything for financial gain
Founded by the charismatic Fatal and technically-minded Rabbit, the Guristas Pirates are a professional and highly-organized outfit operating out of their home region Venal. Unlike other rogue factions, the Guristas are traditional pirates in the sense that their operation is not based around some creed or convoluted ideology, but rather plain and simple greed. The Guristas have bases close to Caldari space and from them they embark on daring raids, often into the State itself. Though they are considered more honorable than many of their counterparts, they are still extremely dangerous and not to be interfered with.
The Guristas often take over ruins in deadspace pockets, creating civilian-staffed mining colonies they protect with spaceship fleets and defense turrets. The Guristas are apparently willing to pay for revenge against capsuleers and others who destroy any civilian mining colonies under their protection. The Guristas also control a notable share of the “grey market” smuggling of competing products into megacorporate enclaves in the Caldari State. They also run one of the largest illegal currency exchanges of Caldari corporate scrip.
Disassociated
- Individuals and corporations that have fallen from favor
- By no means incompetent
- Live and work on the fringes and in the shadows of society
- Politically disenfranchised, their corporations having little or no pull
- While unappreciated, a vital part of the State's economy
Standing outside the traditional power structures are two distinct groups of Caldari who together make up the "disassociated." The first group is composed of those who've fallen off the bottom rung of the megacorp ladder. While they retain their citizenship, in practice these few people simply fall through the cracks between the megacorps and have essentially disappeared from the system, usually permanently. The second group includes those who've found themselves moving between two or three different corporations—usually upper-middle management transferred between corporations in a giant game of pass-the-personnel—and who have in the process realized quite how thoroughly indoctrinated the average employee is.
Those from the first group tend to take part on some level in the criminal underworld, while those from the second often end up doing very well in non-standard careers or in unlikely places within the corporate structure, united solely by their lack of adherence to any franchised corporate ideology. Their opinions as a result are incredibly diverse, and as long as this discreteness remains the case (and their membership stays as small as it traditionally is), they'll continue to exert little significant pressure on State affairs.
Liberal
- Politically progressive, preferring incremental change
- Least militaristic of the main blocs, but still quite well-equipped
- Policy of multilateralism in foreign policy: the State should coordinate policies with other nations
- Economic success through fair dealing
- Supports fair trade and economic interdependence
Comprised of the Hyasyoda Corporation and Ishukone Corporation, the Liberals bloc believes in the principles of free trade and generally cooperative relations with foreign powers. They are the strongest supporters of CONCORD in the Caldari State and strive to create a world where there are no barriers to trade and free-flow of goods. They believe in trade deals that mutually benefit the participants and think the empires can come together in a peaceful, prosperous future world only through cooperation. Their strong position within CONCORD is accentuated by their belief that it is their main vehicle in promoting universal peace and stability so that trade can flow freely and cultures mingle peacefully.
The Liberals found themselves in a severely weakened position following the death of Otro Gariushi and the undermining of CONCORD authority by the Minmatar Elders. Espousing fair treatment for all, both within the State and without, they're somewhat ambivalent about recent events; though disquieted by the sneak attack against the Gallente and the atrocities that surrounded it, they recognize that it would be unwise to criticize Heth's actions publicly—and though they prefer not to admit it, they too have been invigorated by the State's recent military victories.
Overall, then, the Liberals are ambivalent when it comes to the Heth question. While they disapprove of his methods, many of his stated ideals resonate strongly with the faction. They're waiting to see what happens before deciding which side to come down on, but regardless, they are prepared to take decisive action to prevent their own goals from being subverted.
Practical
- Politically static, preferring stability over anything else as it is best for business
- Policy of non-interventionism in foreign policy: the State should stick to its own affairs
- Supports favorably imbalanced trade or free trade, which makes it all the easier to exploit foreign markets
The Sukuuvestaa Corporation, CBD Corporation, and Nugoeihuvi Corporation between them make up the Practical faction, which cares little for limiting concepts like ethics. Heading the faction is the huge Sukuuvestaa Corporation, or the SuVee, as it is commonly known, one of the oldest Caldari corporations and matched only by the Kaalakiota Corporation in size. These so-called exploiters have carried a reputation for practicing unethical business tactics for a long time, as well as being frequently associated with organized crime elements. The practicals see the other empires merely as naïve markets ready to be exploited by unrestricted and ruthless trade where everything goes. The Protein Delicacy episode serves as a good example of what kind of business these companies want. They care little about who is a friend with whom and even less about what long-term political ramifications their unscrupulous business practices can have. They are mercantilist in their views on trade, believing that profit for one always means loss for another.
Generally the most pro-Heth of the three political groups, the Practicals appreciate the new opportunities he's delivered, and while being forced to cede political control to his Providence Directorate is not a slight that they will easily forgive or forget, they're generally prepared to play along with him for as long as his actions remain productive. They're fully aware, though, that this state of affairs won't last forever, and they're quietly assembling plans to ensure that when he is brought down, the Practicals won't find themselves hamstrung by the other corporations. If in the end they have to topple Heth themselves, then that's what they'll do. In the meantime, they're content to beat the war-drums and use the fighting as a cover for their other activities.
Patriot
- Politically conservative, preferring to maintain the status quo
- Most militant of the main blocs
- Policy of interventionism in foreign affairs: the State should exert power
- Supports autarky, or economic self-sufficiency, for the State
- Economically protectionist
Generally regarded as the most powerful faction, the Patriots are an alliance of Lai Dai Corporation, Wiyrkomi Corporation, and the mighty Kaalakiota Corporation, who between them and their subsidiaries possess capabilities rivaling those of the other two Caldari political factions combined. They are genuinely patriotic and extremely proud, less concerned with trade and more with the position of the Caldari politically and militarily in the international community.
The Patriots cultivate the Caldari heritage, reminisce about the great Raata Empire of old and long wept for their lost home world, Caldari Prime. The majority sees economical dominance in the world only as a tool to promote military power. A small minority called for a renewed war with the Gallente prior to YC110, but before the actual outbreak of war, the Patriots were willing to negotiate alternative ways to acquire Caldari Prime. They felt that they could only see their dream come true by convincing the Federation of the economical and, most importantly, militaristic superiority of the Caldari State, and this is what they strove for.
Caldari superiority, both militarily and economically, is still the chief concern of the Patriots. However, that rather jingoistic pride has been mortally injured by Tibus Heth's politically vicious rise. As a result, they generally refuse to admit, even to each other, that many of the things Heth has done are exactly what they themselves have wanted to do all along. While the wounds are still too fresh for them to feel anything but hatred for him, they realize that to defy him openly would harm the State (and their dominant position within it) immeasurably, so for now they play along with him and pretend (as much to themselves as to anyone else) that they're not immensely enjoying giving the Gallente a black eye.
Provist
- Politically radical, willing to take drastic steps to affect change quickly
- Implemented a system of centralized political power by creating the CPD
- Founded on pure meritocratic ideals
The Caldari Providence Directorate is a gendarmerie founded by Tibus Heth shortly after the launch of his successful coup against the Caldari Constructions Corporation. It was initially manned by Caldari Constructions workers loyal to Heth. Templis Dragonaurs were secretly appointed as the agency's officers and were responsible for providing State-wide internal security and running Heth's anti-Gallente/Caldari supremacy propaganda campaign. Noted for their physical perfection and trademark dark blue uniforms, these men and women were nicknamed Provists by the Caldari population.
Templis Dragonaurs
- Dangerous political reactionaries
- Highly dedicated group willing to conduct terrorist acts
- Undertones of Caldari racial superiority
The Templis Dragonaurs are an ultra-nationalist Caldari terrorist organization whose origins date back to the Tikiona States. They are easily the most anti-Gallente political entity in New Eden. The organization was secretly involved in the destruction of Nouvelle Rouvenor. Tibus Heth was supposedly a member for six years, although his involvement was never officially proven.
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Good information, though Malcolm would not go into that much detail about it all. The goal is just to provide a basic (if a little whitewashed) explanation of how the State functions and why it's a different system than say, Gallente corporate structure and democracy, etc.
The idea isn't really to give people a thorough education on the State but more of a "if you're going to complain about the State, at least have a basic understanding of how it works first."
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So, a few things to edit:
Basically change the statement to read "Caldari citizen" is a term used only by outsiders, those within the State refer to themselves by the megacorporation they identify with; Wiyrkomi Employee, Sukuuvestaa Employee.
Add information regarding the disassociated (primarily those who have slipped through the cracks) and how Executor Heth fits into it all in the second post. Sound about right so far?
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The spectrum is definitely "nice" but it feels off.
The middle three almost need to be a triangle with the Gurisatas, Provist/TD, and Disassociated making another triangle around them.
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Mal, out of curiosity, who is asking that you provide a description of the State factions IC? Seems weird to me that you'd have capsuleer characters that don't know the basics of Caldari society and would ask Mal to describe it to them on IGS.
The spectrum is definitely "nice" but it feels off.
The middle three almost need to be a triangle with the Gurisatas, Provist/TD, and Disassociated making another triangle around them.
Hmm... might have to try doing a graphic like that. The "spectrum" is really a rough and unsophisticated way to describe this.
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Scherezad made mention on IGS that she thought it'd be a good thread since there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the State (particularly in how its corporate structure is also the government). That's the most recent request, it's been asked of me before but it was a while back and I don't remember who it was.
Even if I don't actually end up making the post, it's been a neat discussion so far.
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The idea isn't really to give people a thorough education on the State but more of a "if you're going to complain about the State, at least have a basic understanding of how it works first."
I don't think those that criticize the State IC are necessarily unaware of how it functions. There's just lots of material that are grounds for criticizing the State's structure (as are there for any other faction), such as how it causes homelessness (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Homeless), how its second largest corporation is unethical (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sukuuvestaa_Corporation_%28NPC_corporation%29), how political activism is regarded as dissent (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Civire#Dissenters), how they are a "ruthless dictatorship" (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari), and the idea they are more combative than the Amarr (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari#Overview). In terms of the individual citizen, they are pressured enough to the point that, if they fail, they're pushed to committing suicide. There's also the mention of "unquestioning loyalty" (indoctrination to an authoritarian state) and those who do "disappear from the system" aren't considered worthy of the State's time (little to no concepts of charity or humanitarianism). While hardly anyone IC plays this traits since it goes beyond our comfort zones as a Westerner, all of the previous so-called PF "realities" will definitely be on the grounds of contention for someone like a Gallentean.
I like what you've wrote and what everyone has inputted in so far, but I think you misjudge people's knowledge when they engage in anti-State RP.
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I like what you've wrote and what everyone has inputted in so far, but I think you misjudge people's knowledge when they engage in anti-State RP.
Good input, but I'll clarify: It's not that I'm assuming they don't have an understanding of how it works, it's that a lot of what is said against the State by others in RP is either grossly exaggerated or finds its roots at completely ignoring (or being ignorant of) why the State functions as it does or how it actually functions. Sure, there's a lot of good, solid reasons to criticize the State (Malcolm has done so a few times), but there's also a lot of stuff said that simply doesn't line up, so Malcolm (in character) is of the mindset that a basic "look, this is how it works" would rectify about half of the problems people claim exist.
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Scherezad made mention on IGS that she thought it'd be a good thread since there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the State (particularly in how its corporate structure is also the government). That's the most recent request, it's been asked of me before but it was a while back and I don't remember who it was.
Even if I don't actually end up making the post, it's been a neat discussion so far.
Here's the simplest way I can describe it:
Think of Caldari State culture to be similar to modern Japan in that people's motives are more inclined to include the greater good than in other empires. There's some good discussion on this in previous threads, they can't be too far back.
However, instead of the Japanese government ruling over strong corporations like Honda and Sony, the megacorps are more like China. Policing can't be done by a central power, so is done by the megacorps, who are kept in check by one another. Open conflict doesn't break out due to what they know would happen to The State, and the Caldari Navy is used as a deterrent to foreign invasion.
The changes from Tibus Heth on have centralized the structure more to fight the faction wars. However, the megacorps still dwarf that governmental structure.
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I like what you've wrote and what everyone has inputted in so far, but I think you misjudge people's knowledge when they engage in anti-State RP.
Good input, but I'll clarify: It's not that I'm assuming they don't have an understanding of how it works, it's that a lot of what is said against the State by others in RP is either grossly exaggerated or finds its roots at completely ignoring (or being ignorant of) why the State functions as it does or how it actually functions. Sure, there's a lot of good, solid reasons to criticize the State (Malcolm has done so a few times), but there's also a lot of stuff said that simply doesn't line up, so Malcolm (in character) is of the mindset that a basic "look, this is how it works" would rectify about half of the problems people claim exist.
Welcome to my RP life. The above can be said while replacing "State" with either "Federation", "Republic" or "Empire". I've not been active for years but when I was defending the Fed from smear and out-right falsehoods often from ignorant and/or overly exaggerated claims, this was basically an every-day occurrence. Best safeguard or means would be to try and not be ignorant yourself, and to show the facts to those who clearly missed it. Your doing the latter now, but mind your own knowledge and don't be to eager on things you don't know yourself - your IC claims about Noir made me groan until you corrected and said you were informed about his capsuleer-status. I don't know if that was entirely IC or an ooc slip. There were some other points about Malkalen and Noir too but I let those be on RP grounds.
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- your IC claims about Noir made me groan until you corrected and said you were informed about his capsuleer-status. I don't know if that was entirely IC or an ooc slip. There were some other points about Malkalen and Noir too but I let those be on RP grounds.
Haha, it was entirely IC. The write-up suggests that Noir's status as a capsuleer was pretty much covered up and that very few people were privy to the knowledge. Most logically, the Federation higher-ups would know, but I doubt a random Caldari State capsuleer (like Malcolm) would've known without somebody pointing it out to him. :)
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May i suggest to eventually add this well put-together-infodump into evelopedia eventually?
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Haha, it was entirely IC. The write-up suggests that Noir's status as a capsuleer was pretty much covered up and that very few people were privy to the knowledge. Most logically, the Federation higher-ups would know, but I doubt a random Caldari State capsuleer (like Malcolm) would've known without somebody pointing it out to him. :)
I think it's good for one's character to be ignorant of many, many things. In the sort of data-rich future that EVE represents, there's an entire cluster's worth of available information, 70% of which is probably misrepresenting the facts.
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It's not that I'm assuming they don't have an understanding of how it works, it's that a lot of what is said against the State by others in RP is either grossly exaggerated or finds its roots at completely ignoring (or being ignorant of) why the State functions as it does or how it actually functions.
Welcome to my RP life. The above can be said while replacing "State" with either "Federation", "Republic" or "Empire".
Pretty much this. I look at the real world, and an enormous amount of what people use to criticise things they don't like has very little basis in fact, from politics to religion, global warming to drug policy... people quite often have strong, loud opinions about things based on incorrect (or at least questionable) facts. It's just how people work.
So I'm not sure that posting about it OOC is going to make much difference, nor am I sure that it should.
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Alright, tried the triangle idea:
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2302/caldaristate.png)
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Holy fucking Ken.
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Wow, now that's impressive stuff!
I really like the "extensions" outside the triangle with the gradient, it certainly speaks to a spectrum of beliefs outside of the 3 strict definitions.
My only suggestions are for the white (practical) area inside the triangle to be a little more dominant as it can be easy to see the whole thing as a red-to-blue sweep. That's minor and nit-picky however :9. The only major issue I see is the "Disassociated" description text is hard to read against the black, though I can understand you were running out of distinct colors to use for keeping them matched to their appropriate visual reference in the graphic. Perhaps a lighter shade of grey so it will pop a bit.
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Wow, now that's impressive stuff!
Thanks! :)
The only major issue I see is the "Disassociated" description text is hard to read against the black, though I can understand you were running out of distinct colors to use for keeping them matched to their appropriate visual reference in the graphic. Perhaps a lighter shade of grey so it will pop a bit.
Actually, that is working as intended. ;)
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That's awesome, Ken.
Down in the description for Provists, you have 'instituded', btw.
It seems like a lot of the talk about company contracts sounds a bit dry. It occurs to me that signing on with the corporation is probably a major right of passage, and a big event (to a greater or lesser degree, perhaps depending on your corporation).
As far as the structure of the State, I think the main takeaway (which has been covered pretty well) is that the 'State' (at least before Heth, maybe a little less-so now) is largely just the foreign policy arm of the Big 8. It's their interface for dealing with outside sovereignties, more than an internal government. For example, it's a bit telling that the highest Caldari court deals exclusively with inter-corporate cases, and the CEP, the State's ruling body, is literally just the CEOs of the Big 8.
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What's your status if you're employed by an organization that's not (directly) one of the Big Eight? Say you sign on with the Mercantile Club or the House of Records.
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That's awesome, Ken.
Down in the description for Provists, you have 'instituded', btw.
Thank you, fixed.
What's your status if you're employed by an organization that's not (directly) one of the Big Eight? Say you sign on with the Mercantile Club or the House of Records.
I've always looked at the national-level institutions as drawing their workforce from the megas on temporary or permanent contracts. One may be a Kaalakiota citizen, bound to KK by a life-contract, but their day-to-day job is to work as an impartial paralegal for the CBT. I'm also inclined to see the Caldari Navy as using a regimental system whereby entire units are pulled whole from each of the various Big Eight forces for pre-determined tours of duty.
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Could also see the 'shared' institutions like the Navy or even the others being one of the few ways for 'disassociated' people to have better lives, or improve their station. That's basically the backstory of one of my alts, now that I think about it.
Edit: Though still a tough path, without the built in connections that someone coming from a corporate background might enjoy.
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I made this some time ago based on the old stock ownership info.
(http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/forge/StateFactionalism.jpg)
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<- Not Hamish ;)
Yes he is.
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Evelopedia stuff:
The Chief Executive Panel is a political entity jointly owned and run by the Caldari megacorporations. The CEOs of the mega corporations sit on the board of the Panel and make sure the mega corporations don't go overboard in competing with each other, smoothing over potential conflicts before they escalate out of control. The Panel also handles the foreign policy of the Caldari State. It is the closest thing to a Caldari government as there ever will be.
The Chief Executive Panel is the main bureaucratic apparatus through which the Caldari megacorporations rule the State. The Panel's primary purposes are to determine the budgets for the State's few government agencies, such as the Navy and the Tribunal, and to act as a way for the State's corporate powers to coordinate national policy, such as foreign relations, customs and trade regulations, and inter-corporate business laws.
The Panel itself consists of the major megacorporate CEOs and a non-partisan director. In reality, the CEOs usually send a delegation of trusted executives, corporate lawyers, or board members to represent the corporation's interests on the Panel, and the director is nothing more than a figurehead, a pawn of the most influential political bloc at the time.
Though the State Executor and the Caldari Providence Directorate exert a great deal of influence over the Executive Panel since its creation in 110YC, the CEP must endorse the policies of both groups in order to make them law. So far, however, there have been few substantive challenges to proposed initiatives.
The Caldari Business Tribunal is the inter-corporate justice system of the Caldari State.
The Caldari are not wont to bicker over lost deals or ruthless competition, but when they do, this is the place they come to. The tribunal is the only organization within the Caldari State authorized to cancel deals or agreements made between companies.
The Caldari Business Tribunal is the only non-corporate justice system and police agency in the Caldari State, tasked with policing the megacorporations and their disputes. The main function of the Tribunal is to provide a nonviolent means for corporations to resolve grievances, as outright inter-corporate war tends to do significant damage to corporate bottom lines. Tribunal justices are appointed by the Chief Executive Panel, and many appointees are corporate lawyers or security executives prior to their nomination. Additionally, Tribunal investigators are among the few people in the State who are ostensibly free of corporate loyalties.
The Tribunal's courts are modeled after the Raata Code, an inquisitorial system where the court's goal is to determine the facts of the case, not the prosecution of an individual or corporation. Tribunal agents have the authority, in theory, to enter any corporate facility and confiscate corporate property, provided that a warrant is issued by a Tribunal justice; in reality, agents are often delayed by corporate legal teams and stymied by corporate security. This situation varies depending on how much political power the corporation driving the investigation can wield.
The Tribunal does not generally deal with crimes against the person and is not the “Supreme Court” of the Caldari State, as many outsiders assume. Most criminal prosecutions, such as those for murder or embezzlement, are handled by megacorporate justice systems, and they cannot appeal to the Tribunal. The only time the Tribunal deals with such cases is when they are committed by or against government officials, or when asked to resolve a question of jurisdiction.
What's your status if you're employed by an organization that's not (directly) one of the Big Eight? Say you sign on with the Mercantile Club or the House of Records.
This is an area where my character's backstory is centered, so I've dug around a few times over the years.
As to your specific examples: The Mercantile Club seems mostly just like an "old boy's network" type social club (especially with its history as more of a "gentleman's club"), in my skeptical mind, I tend to see the kind of place where those in power plan out among themselves how to slice the pie up. However, that's just my take since my dorm in college was right next door to The Chicago Club in the south loop and I had a friend who worked there that fed me all kinds of dirt.
The House of Records seems something like a cross between the Library of Congress and a giant accounting firm along with a dash of Congressional Budget Office (offers testimony and analysis of decisions being mulled over). The CBO is theoretically maintained as a nonpartisan agency, though of course this doesn't stop politicians from praising their impartiality one week and then dismissing them as unreliable the next depending on whether their reviews align with some policy position they have.
The Tribunal is certainly a legal body, but remains limited only to civil disputes rather than criminal prosecution. Its justices seem to have a similar authority to a judge who is overseeing a suit or other matter being settled by arbitration, conciliation, mediation, etc. As the Evelopedia states, justices are appointed by the CEP, though it doesn't mention any term lengths or method of recall/impeachment.
I imagine something of a hierarchy as follows: Senior Justices assign matters to Associate Justices, deciding how many will sit on the case and which specific personnel. This involves a lot of political consideration in terms of appointing impartial oversight (or a broad range of opinions to achieve such), even the number of Justices involved can be taken as a subtle statement of importance. The Associate Justices then authorize subpoenas and warrants for testimony or evidence. These are acted upon by investigators who are assigned to a given matter as needed. Each investigator has a team of agents at their disposal. I'd think there would be a degree of specialization among these investigative units as to what kinds of disputes they are most suited to focus on along with some more complicated matters having an occasional "detail" put together to address the specific mixture of issues on larger or more scandalous cases that may have more public spotlight.
My thinking behind all of this is that an incentive structure is in place where advancement, being dependent on appointment from the CEP, is based (at least in part) on not being too partisan. Say a former SuVee Executive Counsel or KK Chief Security Officer are appointed as justices, if they remain loyal to their former employers and rule in their favor frequently, they'll likely never get a nod from the representatives of other corporations at the CEP. They may also find themselves bogged down in undesirable minutiae-laden casework, insulated from cases involving their former mega, censure or outright removal from office (whether any of these things exist or not...unknown :9).
Anyways, those are some of my views on the State-wide bodies.
As far as contracts go, I'd imagine one of two things:
At-will employment without contracts. My reasoning being that corporations tend to benefit from this arrangement as it keeps the populace divided and competing amongst each other for labor. This has an overall depressive effect on wages. Obviously the exceptions start coming as you reach beyond middle management or certain work sectors when no-compete, non-disclosure and other agreements start to become important.
Use of contracts, but a widely accepted practice of corporations "buying" contracts out when they want certain personnel. An employee might convince another mega to buy them up so they can move over or perhaps a mega is abandoning a given market initiative and puts whole blocks of employees up for other megas to make use of.
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Syylara, my view of it has always been that corporations serve a cultural purpose at least as much as a business one. As part of that, I have always felt that publicly, and as a general situation, (that is, what people view as the 'normal' employee-corporation relationship) involves a social contract between employee and company. Keeping in mind that these are not just businesses, but also essentially governments in and of themselves, from a local, to a planetary and interplanetary level.
So, as long as you take care of the corporations (uphold its interests, etc), the corporation takes care of you. Other ways of doing things might work for a business, but they don't work for a society (and that's basically what each corporation is, in and of itself). Also, since to a large degree, on the level of individual Caldari, the local economy is probably also going straight back to the corporation (your disposable income is probably mostly corporate scrip you spend with your own corporation, you pension fund is run by your corporation, your hairdresser works for a wholly-owned corporate subsidiary, etc.) the corporate has an incentive to keep workers happy and well paid. Their financial health is in part the way countries stay financially healthy (money moving around a lot, workforce/productivity is a major asset) in addition to selling products and services.
Now, this is just a general - and maybe even idealized - case. Obviously they will have people around the edges, dirty dealing in private, etc. But that's where I think the expectation is for most Caldari.
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I think that "contract" rite of passage as you say, when a Caldari grows up and has to find a place in the society (most often in the parent's megacorporation for vaious obvious reasons as said above), might not be a lot more than what we already have today in most countries in terms of administration. When you end up being an adult RL - well, I do not know how it works in other countries but it is probably similar - you have some paperwork to fill to get on the public records, for taxes, voting rights, etc etc. I doubt that the Caldari do it a lot differently, the only main difference is that you "finalize" your life contract with one of the megas instead of the state.
It seems also obvious that some Caldari work for unaligned entities like the CPD, house of records, etc. What do you think of that ? Are these people still hosted by their native mega while working for a "public" corporation ? Or do these public corporations work like any mega and provide everything the employee needs ? Also, we have the specific case of the Navy for the state military.
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I've been a bit of an political economy nerd recently (as exhibited by my IC posts about structural violence and poverty >_>), so with that in mind, are we sure the Disassociated are exclusively criminal underworld stuff?
Like, the Homeless item. How are the homeless/poor in the State organized, and where do they live? I've pictured it as a bit of a have/have-not situation (versus the more subjective and varying definitions of social class in the Fed). Shanty towns? Do the Disassociated only become tied to the criminal underworld because people like the Guristas move in to control these shanty towns?
Secondly, how do the Practicals justify their actions to their populace? Pure out propaganda? Same as Fed coating their actions in principle. As players we have a LOT of OOC knowledge that might be sheltered from the actual inhabitants of EVE. For example, with the Protein delicacy fiasco, the fact that they were made from biological waste was just not told to the SuVee public, so they could paint the Fed people as being reactionary for no reason. To me, I find it confusing how the Caldari are possibly honorable (though it says they are 'more unscrupulous than the Gallente') but have a so-called "unethical" corporation.
Perhaps the honour bit is a player-construct, because of all the Japanese influences? Potentially, the Caldari moral system is radically different from ours as players (for example, not caring about those who are seen as 'weak')
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I've been a bit of an political economy nerd recently (as exhibited by my IC posts about structural violence and poverty >_>), so with that in mind, are we sure the Disassociated are exclusively criminal underworld stuff?
No, no. The Disassociated are really anyone who doesn't claim an identity to one of the megacorporations. It could be someone who has been passed between corporations, someone who has fallen out of the system (for whatever reason) or criminals.
Like, the Homeless item. How are the homeless/poor in the State organized, and where do they live? I've pictured it as a bit of a have/have-not situation (versus the more subjective and varying definitions of social class in the Fed). Shanty towns? Do the Disassociated only become tied to the criminal underworld because people like the Guristas move in to control these shanty towns?
I imagine most of the homeless live in the 10% of the State not owned by the megacorporations, with stragglers living here and there in the various megacorporate regions. It isn't hard to suspect that opportunistic profit-seekers would capitalize on the desperation of the homeless and Disassociated in the 10% region with meager housing offers in exchange for "under the table" work and so on.
Secondly, how do the Practicals justify their actions to their populace? Pure out propaganda? Same as Fed coating their actions in principle. As players we have a LOT of OOC knowledge that might be sheltered from the actual inhabitants of EVE. For example, with the Protein delicacy fiasco, the fact that they were made from biological waste was just not told to the SuVee public, so they could paint the Fed people as being reactionary for no reason. To me, I find it confusing how the Caldari are possibly honorable (though it says they are 'more unscrupulous than the Gallente') but have a so-called "unethical" corporation.
The PF suggests that literally every Caldari is indoctrinated with their corporation pretty heavily (and seemlessly), with the exception of the Disassociated. I imagine the white-washing propaganda from the corporations is pretty heavy in every bloc, with each corporation appealing to the general feel of its politics. (Patriots using patriotic and militaristic propaganda, Practicals using market efficiency and state of living improvement propaganda, Liberals using international realtionship and open market gain propaganda).
The "honor" bit of the Caldari derives mostly from their concept of honor. It is an honor to serve in the community. It is an honor to sacrifice oneself in service to the whole. It is an honor to do all you can for the State. It is an honor to do as you told as best as you are able. Etcetera, etcetera.
Perhaps the honour bit is a player-construct, because of all the Japanese influences? Potentially, the Caldari moral system is radically different from ours as players (for example, not caring about those who are seen as 'weak')
It's different, sure, but not amoral. For example, it's not about "not caring about those seen as weak" it's about understanding the need to let the weak perish in order for the strong (and contributing) to survive. Remember where they are from (Caldari Prime) and the conditions under which they lived for so long. Conditions which required that everyone work together in order for the majority to survive and prosper, those that are unable to contribute or choose not to are seen as a taxing burden that will cost the whole if they are not simply severed. (Think on a "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" mindset).
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I've been a bit of an political economy nerd recently (as exhibited by my IC posts about structural violence and poverty >_>), so with that in mind, are we sure the Disassociated are exclusively criminal underworld stuff?
No, and I have missed something, but I don't think that's been the consensus in this thread.
Like, the Homeless item. How are the homeless/poor in the State organized, and where do they live? I've pictured it as a bit of a have/have-not situation (versus the more subjective and varying definitions of social class in the Fed). Shanty towns? Do the Disassociated only become tied to the criminal underworld because people like the Guristas move in to control these shanty towns?
It's a big cluster. How are they organized and where do they live? There are a million good answers to the question, not just a few, and all of them are valid. You shouldn't look at the "disassociated" as a class or bloc. It is a term to describe individuals and corporations that have fallen from favor/influence. You're a young Caldari (with average evaluations and no family connections) who decides to take a risk and sign on to a new mining firm at age 16, but by the time you turn 20, a few accidents have stalled production, the investors have pulled out, and the stock has tanked.
Your firm's parent mega, let's say... Ishukone, can't justify a buy-out and the company you signed your life to goes bankrupt to be broken up and auctioned off. Even though you're a healthy and level-headed young 20-something, you now have the misfortune of having worked for a failing company. Maybe you didn't work hard enough? Since your corporation tanked, the management must have been sub-par... and they hired you. Your shot at advancement isn't looking to good as you try and find another corporation to call home. And if you can't find a place willing to sign you, where's the room and board (and professional development) going to come from?
Your career has stalled and you'll probably end up working below your potential at a no-name subsidiary for a long while yet. Them's the breaks. You could have gone crawling to Mama Mega on your 16th birthday and begged for a life-contract and all the stability that comes from a life of administrative/factory/maintenance/janitorial work, but you wanted to see space first and live more adventurously. It was a risk that might have paid off, but it didn't, and now you're in line with the rest of the disassociated, every one of you with their own story to tell, waiting to see what you can get out of a second-hand life.
This is one simple example, but the point is that you would be wrong to assume "disassociated" means a gaggle of dirty homeless in rags waiting in a queue to be scooped up by the Guristas.
Secondly, how do the Practicals justify their actions to their populace? Pure out propaganda? Same as Fed coating their actions in propaganda.
FTFY. And, yes, of course.
As players we have a LOT of OOC knowledge that might be sheltered from the actual inhabitants of EVE. For example, with the Protein delicacy fiasco, the fact that they were made from biological waste was just not told to the SuVee public, so they could paint the Fed people as being reactionary for no reason.
Keep in mind the general public can see the IGS. If it's been discussed there, they know about it.
To me, I find it confusing how the Caldari are possibly honorable (though it says they are 'more unscrupulous than the Gallente') but have a so-called "unethical" corporation.
Define honor.
Perhaps the honour bit is a player-construct, because of all the Japanese influences? Potentially, the Caldari moral system is radically different from ours as players (for example, not caring about those who are seen as 'weak')
It doesn't have anything to do with not caring for the "weak". It has to do with ostracizing those who are seen as selfish or who aren't doing their part (as much as they are able). See the below?
The notion of individuality, so prized by the Gallente, tended to be viewed by the Caldari as little more than selfish blindness to the grander scheme of things, and was frowned upon by the vast majority of their leaders as well as the industrious masses that made up the civilian populace. After the first Gallente-Caldari war, the Chief Executive Panel – the corporate heads making up the Caldari State’s ruling body – went even further with this ideology, soon enough taking their seat as polar opposites to their hated nemeses. While it may seem tempting to ascribe this to the ideological rubberbanding sometimes experienced by newly independent states, there is a great deal of historical data that suggests that even as far back as the time of the Raata-Oryioni empire thousands of years ago, the people who would later become the Caldari were already highly collectivistic in outlook and action.
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Thanks, both very helpful posts.
To push the grimdark boundaries a bit, how does the State treat the mentally impaired (and physically impaired assuming that's not screened before birth)? I imagine families will pay for their support, but if they can't support them...
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Syylara, my view of it has always been that corporations serve a cultural purpose at least as much as a business one. As part of that, I have always felt that publicly, and as a general situation, (that is, what people view as the 'normal' employee-corporation relationship) involves a social contract between employee and company. Keeping in mind that these are not just businesses, but also essentially governments in and of themselves, from a local, to a planetary and interplanetary level.
I'm quite on board with that, I view the State as something of a confederacy of interwoven nations. I also prefer the idea that the corporations compete to some degree to attract the best talent, which means that changing which mega you work for should be possible.
So, as long as you take care of the corporations (uphold its interests, etc), the corporation takes care of you. Other ways of doing things might work for a business, but they don't work for a society (and that's basically what each corporation is, in and of itself). Also, since to a large degree, on the level of individual Caldari, the local economy is probably also going straight back to the corporation (your disposable income is probably mostly corporate scrip you spend with your own corporation, you pension fund is run by your corporation, your hairdresser works for a wholly-owned corporate subsidiary, etc.) the corporate has an incentive to keep workers happy and well paid. Their financial health is in part the way countries stay financially healthy (money moving around a lot, workforce/productivity is a major asset) in addition to selling products and services.
Now, this is just a general - and maybe even idealized - case. Obviously they will have people around the edges, dirty dealing in private, etc. But that's where I think the expectation is for most Caldari.
In the overall, I agree and this was highlighted in the YC110 May Revolution that swept through the State
The Caldari Constructions Armor Forge on Piak III was not unique in experiencing a worker's protest on the second day of May. Facilities in the Aikantoh and Lituria systems were also the scene of revolts and a general shut-down as workers employed by Caldari Constructions coordinated a protest against working conditions and the general lot of the Caldari wage-worker...As news of the revolutionary events on Piak III spread through the Caldari State, worker revolts broke out in the territories of all the mega-corporations – with a notable exception being the Ishukone Corporation's holdings, where little civil disorder was experienced.
I think that "contract" rite of passage as you say, when a Caldari grows up and has to find a place in the society (most often in the parent's megacorporation for vaious obvious reasons as said above), might not be a lot more than what we already have today in most countries in terms of administration. When you end up being an adult RL - well, I do not know how it works in other countries but it is probably similar - you have some paperwork to fill to get on the public records, for taxes, voting rights, etc etc. I doubt that the Caldari do it a lot differently, the only main difference is that you "finalize" your life contract with one of the megas instead of the state.
I certainly think that there would be an equivalent to a Social Security Number which keeps track of your work history and other employment matters (I'd imagine voting rights comes more through owning stock). I just don't see the lifetime part fitting in with a highly competitive, meritocratic culture.
It seems also obvious that some Caldari work for unaligned entities like the CPD, house of records, etc. What do you think of that ? Are these people still hosted by their native mega while working for a "public" corporation ? Or do these public corporations work like any mega and provide everything the employee needs ? Also, we have the specific case of the Navy for the state military.
Well, like the linked/quoted Evelopedia articles above discussed, CEP representatives most certainly still work for their mega while CBT figures are expected to move towards impartiality. HoR I'd see as being nonpartisan, though organized in divisions which each interface with a particular mega (along with one that transcribes and records CEP and CBT panels, hearings, etc). The CEP does "determine the budgets for the State's few government agencies, such as the Navy and the Tribunal" so it would make sense that this includes all of the same expected levels of compensation as would be true of a normal employee.
With the CPD, I seem to recall some consternation over the idea that it was packed with patriot-aligned members, though I can't find that at the moment. So it seems that in this case, it is perceived at least by some that members are retaining their loyalty to their respective megas or at least their partisan factional interests.
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Thanks, both very helpful posts.
To push the grimdark boundaries a bit, how does the State treat the mentally impaired (and physically impaired assuming that's not screened before birth)? I imagine families will pay for their support, but if they can't support them...
Mmm, that is a good one. I prefer a fairly :grimdark: view wherein eugenics is accepted and applied widely. Certainly there are a great many common defects and deficiencies that can be remedied with prostheses (consider also the possibility of genetic and memetic "prosthetic" therapies). If nothing can be done, however, well...
It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks and become one with all the people.
These are the same people who started mass producing babies in labs because they wanted to improve their demographic stats after all.
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Going to have to agree with Ken on this one. I imagine that if a family is incapable of (or chooses not to) supporting a handicapped or otherwise debilitated person, then it would be ingrained into a Caldari's thought process that it is their honorable and noble final duty to the people to sacrifice them.
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Going to have to agree with Ken on this one. I imagine that if a family is incapable of (or chooses not to) supporting a handicapped or otherwise debilitated person, then it would be ingrained into a Caldari's thought process that it is their honorable and noble final duty to the people to sacrifice them.
And to sacrifice through service if possible.
"You'll never be a great worker or leader, son, but you will be remembered as a hero for volunteering to go into the radiation zone and help recover the corporation's assets. Your mother and I and the whole work unit are so proud of you. For the State, my boy!"
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Going to have to agree with Ken on this one. I imagine that if a family is incapable of (or chooses not to) supporting a handicapped or otherwise debilitated person, then it would be ingrained into a Caldari's thought process that it is their honorable and noble final duty to the people to sacrifice them.
However, do take into account that as society becomes more and more advanced, more fields of employment open up which rely less on physical labor capacity. Stephen Hawking has certainly contributed a great deal to humanity despite his significant disabilities, for example. This is partly a result of increased capacity to support an individual in overcoming mobility and other limitations (powered wheelchair, speech generator) as well as the far more active fields of astrophysics and thermodynamics than existed in say, the 16th Century.
Could he have realistically been a contemporary of Copernicus, Galileo or Newton? Not likely.
On the other hand, there might be a lot less confusion and controversy over issues such as traumatic injury putting someone on indefinite life-support in a coma. It would be the "honorable" thing to do to relieve them from being a burden and to focus on the life they led without a long and mournful epilogue to their life.
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To me, I find it confusing how the Caldari are possibly honorable (though it says they are 'more unscrupulous than the Gallente') but have a so-called "unethical" corporation.
As I said to you in steam chat, it's not the same kind of honor as us Westerners might assume. It's not talking about being a white knight, complete with chivalry and feeding the poor your own dinner.
It's honor in the manner of loyalty to your word, loyalty to your corp and family. Diligence and determination to do what must be done, to never give up just because something is hard or might make you feel uneasy doing it. Making sacrifices for the good of the whole, etc...
That's the kind of honor I think of when I think of the Caldari. You don't have to be a good guy to be honorable.
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Can anyone point to a real culture were not being kind to those less fortunate than yourself is valued?
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Can anyone point to a real culture were not being kind to those less fortunate than yourself is valued?
None I can think of, but being civil and providing active assistance/welfare are different things. Was there an opinion here that made you think someone feels the Caldari are unkind to the less fortunate?
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Well, I pointed out that there's lesser concept of charity in the State. If it's an organized meritocracy, if you're at the bottom and poor, apparently it's seen as deserving.
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Actually Caldari culture reminds me most of the Japanese.
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Can anyone point to a real culture were not being kind to those less fortunate than yourself is valued?
America?
Wow, that's a cynical viewpoint. Do you really believe that?
Re: Seriphyn --
Charity is less necessary and thus less important/valued in a society where the basic needs of law-abiding citizens are provided by the government (corporation in this case). I think the numbers of undeserving poor in a functioning meritocracy would be lower by a significant margin than in any nation modeled on a modern Western democratic republic. That this was not the case in the State up to YC110 could be seen as a big reason for the Provist movement's initial success and survival up to the present. According to the guiding political philosophy of the State, there shouldn't be *undeserving* disenfranchised or disassociated people. We can appreciate the naivety of that idea, but it is nevertheless the fundamental principle of meritocracy.
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I wrote a longpost but then decided the better of it (too tired, I likely get incoherent).
Just a quick rhetorical question: The Big Eight are the megas that were left after the Morning of Reasoning and survived the War as independent corporations*. Are they a corporate state running a military-industrial complex or a military dictatorship organized as corporations?
I heavily favour the interpretation that the Caldari State is a confederation of dictatorships, which just happen to be administrated as corporations and little by little have taken on board more and more corporate traits. It may be something similar to the relatively recent issue between the (ex-)President and Gallente megas - except that the Caldari megacorps didn't just resist government orders, but took advantage of the strong Caldari national spirit to outright secede from the Federation permanently. The long period of war must have molded them significantly. The apologist version of this would indeed suggest that the Caldari are a confederation of independent states run as corporations.
Also, tradition and nationalism. Even if the corporations took lead - probably even stronger after the population was evacuated from Caldari Prime to corporate colonies - I'd argue that someone losing employement with the Big Eight can still remain as a nominal Caldari citizen both culturally (bound by the national spirit) and on paper (via other contracts than "working for life"). Caldari citizens not employed by a mega or direct subsidiaries may include:
- Pensioners (who are still likely associated to a specific ideology, and may even have some kind of an optional contract with their parent corp)
- Unemployed (Disassociated)
- Short-time workers (part time working with a corp, part unemployed)
- Rented workers (people who are not directly employed to their parent mega, but are employed by an at least nominally independent corporation)
- Small business (either disassociated or strongly aligned with a parent corp)
- Freelancers (people who have a skills and resources to whom it is profitable to go independent - while being an anathema to the Caldari, they are a necessary part)
This necessitates that there likely is a citizenship contract. I would assume there to be three types of contracts:
(1) Citizenship of a megacorporation via proxy (i.e. Armor Forge Bar & Grill isn't actually part of Caldari Constructions, but it has no possibility of being anywhere else - so their employees are members of an "independent" corporation with a contract with CC which is a subsidiary of the KK which is, in turn, a full member of the State.
(2) Citizenship of an independent corporation. Employee is a "citizen" of the corporation, which is a silent/non-voting partner in the State.
(3) Independent citizenship. Either their field must be small enough (such as keeping a one-man kiosk), or a niche that is best not organized into a bigger corp ("we need your services - but only one month a year") or then the individual must be so exceptionally talented (and individual-minded) that negotiating contracts is possible. (Part-time workers would, I feel, be more likelyl to be of case (2), employees of an outsourcing corp.) The independent citizenship may be more de facto than de jure, though at least some things would require registration. Such as those exceedingly rare individuals who can afford to travel and require something equivalent to a passport.
*) Can't find the source, but if I remember correctly, Nugoeihuvi is actually a conglomerate of several smaller corporations which banded together to launch a media business after noticing a market opportunity as there was no media-focused corporations amongst the megacorps which left the Federation.
P.S. Also, before being smoked out by the Provists, we have to remember that Quafe used to be the ninth corporation of the Big Eight - a Gallente mega having full membership rights in the State. There are multiple references to independent corporations in the State, but life's pretty difficult for them - they must stay profitable enough not to fall from the society, but if they're too profitable, they'll end up "acquired" by bigger corporations. (Whee, we've got an excuse to slack and take things casually at ASKO. Though we have had our questionably profitable moments.)
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Also, before being smoked out by the Provists, we have to remember that Quafe used to be the ninth corporation of the Big Eight - a Gallente mega having full membership rights in the State.
I always had the impression that prior to YC110 Quafe's status meant it was free to conduct business in State space like any other Caldari mega (and was successful in that market), but never that it was so powerful as to be considered a shadow member of the Big Eight.
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Also, before being smoked out by the Provists, we have to remember that Quafe used to be the ninth corporation of the Big Eight - a Gallente mega having full membership rights in the State.
I always had the impression that prior to YC110 Quafe's status meant it was free to conduct business in State space like any other Caldari mega (and was successful in that market), but never that it was so powerful as to be considered a shadow member of the Big Eight.
I interpreted this to mean that while the Big 8 essentially dictate the foreign policy of the State, there are other corporations that have a presence on the CEP, CBT, and HoR. This gives those corporations all the rights of a State corporation when interacting with the other State corporations. Quafe was the largest and most influential of the non-Big 8. I would not be surprised if CreoDron, Roden, Khanid Innovations, ORE, Mordu's Legion, etc have representatives at large CEP meetings. A way to look at is that instead of lobbiest going through Representatives, they are having to work with each other to get what they want at the CEP.
The CreoDron lobby cares whether or not the CN is funded in Lonetrek to protect its assets there. They will lobby and maybe even contribute funds for their defense, especially if the CN's local Drone contract comes their way. KK and Lai Dai may not like this possibility and so lobby for one of their subs to get the contract and SuVee is footing most of the bill for that CN squadron, so they decide who gets the contract.
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I interpreted this to mean that while the Big 8 essentially dictate the foreign policy of the State, there are other corporations that have a presence on the CEP, CBT, and HoR. This gives those corporations all the rights of a State corporation when interacting with the other State corporations. Quafe was the largest and most influential of the non-Big 8. I would not be surprised if CreoDron, Roden, Khanid Innovations, ORE, Mordu's Legion, etc have representatives at large CEP meetings. A way to look at is that instead of lobbiest going through Representatives, they are having to work with each other to get what they want at the CEP.
"The Chief Executive Panel is a political entity jointly owned and run by the Caldari megacorporations. The CEOs of the mega corporations sit on the board of the Panel..."
How strictly to interpret this is up to each individual, of course. In my mind, I'd imagine that foreign-owned corps, minor State corps and other interested parties may have representatives at the CEP, but have no voting rights (like Guam has a Representative in U.S. Congress, but doesn't vote). In the CBT it is expected that corporate loyalties are put aside (though the entry does say "ostensibly" which suggests that this is the ideal and not absolute).
There are many minor (NPC) Corporations listed under the Caldari State, some are entirely independent, some are subsidiaries of the Megas that are notable enough to warrant their own listings and a few are spin-offs.
The CreoDron lobby cares whether or not the CN is funded in Lonetrek to protect its assets there. They will lobby and maybe even contribute funds for their defense, especially if the CN's local Drone contract comes their way. KK and Lai Dai may not like this possibility and so lobby for one of their subs to get the contract and SuVee is footing most of the bill for that CN squadron, so they decide who gets the contract.
I could see this being the case during peace time, but with an active war taking place, there might be something along the lines of a Trading with the Enemy Act. However, as seen in real life, this doesn't prevent such activity from taking place or from prosecution of violations being consistent.
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How have I miss this thread?.... Politics, charts, subfaction.... ehm... I like it. Now is time for reading.... but give me some time :)
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A question I've always asked myself is how a corporation gets put on the Chief Executive Panel in the first place. To be more specific it has to do with Lai Dai and NOH since they were not part of the original six that took part in seceding from the Federation.
I've always answered that question with Lai Dai and NOH being part of the traditional power struggle between SuVee and KK and attempts to gain more control over the CEP and the State decision making process. Certainly it seems unsurprising either party thinking to themselves: "Hey, if we offload some of our subsidiaries into a new entity and then get them a seat on the CEP, more power to us." Only for the other side to react and do the same thing with the end result of having two extra Megas on the CEP but with the same balance of power.
I would say that speaks strongly for how power is distributed in the State. The Megacorporations are in most respects powers unto themselves and the Caldari State and its independent institutions exist solely for the benefit of their own interests. Even getting a seat on the CEP is dependent on the largesse of an existing Mega due to the amount of economic control they exert over the State. Hell, the Megas even back their own currencies in the State domestic market and probably conduct all sorts of manipulation on it to ensure that the wages they pay out get sunk back into products they make and sell.
Until Tibus Heth and the Provists there were almost no checks on the economic and political power of the Megacorporations in the Caldari State that were not self-imposed by themselves via the CEP. Because aside from banks like CFU (Which probably has restrictions itself on independent/private loans outside to the Megas) almost all capital in the State is centralized in the central bank/financial institution that is at the heart of each Mega. It's a deliberate system to ensure that power is retained by existing Megas and potential competition by rising corporations will eventually be bought out when they need to raise funds through an IPO in order to expand.
That is what I've always found interesting about the State. Externally, sure, the Megas are willing to show a united front to outsiders but internally I think the management and executives are focused on their own interests and shafting their rivals with backroom dealing, corporate knife-fighting and shady practices. In purely political terms, the Caldari State as it exists is just a very useful power structure for the Megacorporations to advance and protect their interests and what it promotes is a very driven, competitive and focused society for no other reason than that if people don't perform well and do their job then there isn't any safety net there to catch you and it's game over man, because you have no bill of rights and no courts of arbitration to appeal to.
That I think is why the Provists seem to have so much support in the State currently from the "common" worker because they were told if they worked hard, conformed and did their jobs as part of their corporation they would be rewarded. How the Megas distributed power in the State in their own interests and that of their shareholders made that promise increasingly more difficult to deliver upon until all that economic and social disparity just blew up in their faces.
My short, simple and incoherent view on things anyway. I just think it's a misconception to think that the Caldari State is a state in the traditional sense because it came into being solely due to the original six Megas during the Caldari secession and the only authority that has ever existed to check their power are the other Megas via the CEP. Or the attempts by the CPD, more recently. There is no independent "government" per se in the State because the Megas are able to govern their own affairs and that of their employees and jealously guard that independence individually whilst at the same time seeking to impose their own interests and views as well as increase their power over other Megas via the CEP. The political parallels of the State, I think, lie in feudalism or city-states with the Megacorporation being the modern incarnations of the Raata Empire's Clans/Houses/Families/Whatever they had for the Caldari.
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This reminds me: why would a Wiyrkomi-affiliated employee/citizen/whatever get worked up about possible issues with performance metrics from a KK employee? That doesn't strike me as expected in any way.
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This reminds me: why would a Wiyrkomi-affiliated employee/citizen/whatever get worked up about possible issues with performance metrics from a KK employee? That doesn't strike me as expected in any way.
I'd hardly call what Malcolm was doing being "worked up." But, suffice it to say that bad business from Kaalakiota is likely to put a stain on the State as a whole in the eyes of the one doing business with them, which would also make it unlikely that they'd be willing to pursue business with Wiyrkomi.
However, if a Wiyrkomi employee points out the failure and how to proceed and the customer discovers something ill begotten from Kaalakiota, then the Wiyrkomi Corporation has gained a level of trust in the eyes of the customer and may be able to make a "counter offer" as in "Well, you could trust that Wiyrkomi Corporation would never allow this sort of failure."
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As you like, of course, but to me that seems slightly disconnected from my (outsiders?) perspective. :)
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Might matter if the KK employee is working for Wirykomi as a subcontractor ;)
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However, if a Wiyrkomi employee points out the failure and how to proceed and the customer discovers something ill begotten from Kaalakiota, then the Wiyrkomi Corporation has gained a level of trust in the eyes of the customer and may be able to make a "counter offer" as in "Well, you could trust that Wiyrkomi Corporation would never allow this sort of failure."
I'm suddenly recalling how cool Malcolm was with those Kaalakiota employees getting collared.
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However, if a Wiyrkomi employee points out the failure and how to proceed and the customer discovers something ill begotten from Kaalakiota, then the Wiyrkomi Corporation has gained a level of trust in the eyes of the customer and may be able to make a "counter offer" as in "Well, you could trust that Wiyrkomi Corporation would never allow this sort of failure."
I'm suddenly recalling how cool Malcolm was with those Kaalakiota employees getting collared.
Heh. Malcolm is a Caldari Patriot. He has a deep-seated loyalty and kinship with the Caldari but he also thinks like a Caldari. In this case, the KK employees broke the laws of the land they were working in, which would make them subject to that land's legal system unless Kaalakiota attempted to intervene. Malcolm works for Wiyrkomi, he's not going to step in and interject on Kaalakiota's behalf, if KK doesn't act on behalf of the employees then no one will.
Malcolm is a generally a compassionate and understanding person, which tends to make him act very close to a Liberal sometimes, but his overwhelming behavioral pattern is that of a Patriot. What bothers me is that people seem to be of the opinion that the Caldari won't look after one another across corporate lines which isn't entirely accurate. Keep in mind that the corporations share information with one another regarding potential employees, bad employees and national security. Yes, there's competition between them but in the end they're all Caldari and they're going to look out for themselves especially when it comes to international relations.
It shouldn't be that hard to understand why Malcolm would be concerned about the failure of a few KK employees conducting business in the Kingdom and how that will result in a negative impact on business from the State in relation to that client from that point forward and yet not be overly concerned if those same employees broke laws and were subject to the penalty for doing so. In both cases, the focus is how the State appears to the client and how potential business with that client going forward will be affected.
Right now, Kaalakiota seems to be having a lot of trouble with this particular client and it isn't too much of a stretch to think that they might be willing to move their business to another corporation if the service/pricing is comparable/better.
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Malcolm is a generally a compassionate and understanding person, which tends to make him act very close to a Liberal sometimes
Understanding and compassionate does not mean Liberal Caldari.
Liberal Caldari does not mean understanding and compassionate.
"Liberal Caldari" is a trade and economics outlook. It has nothing to do with the personality of those involved.
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Malcolm is a generally a compassionate and understanding person, which tends to make him act very close to a Liberal sometimes
Understanding and compassionate does not mean Liberal Caldari.
Liberal Caldari does not mean understanding and compassionate.
"Liberal Caldari" is a trade and economics outlook. It has nothing to do with the personality of those involved.
Ya, but the jagii mistake the pursuit of liberal trade/economics for compassion/understanding ;)
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Malcolm is a generally a compassionate and understanding person, which tends to make him act very close to a Liberal sometimes
Understanding and compassionate does not mean Liberal Caldari.
Liberal Caldari does not mean understanding and compassionate.
"Liberal Caldari" is a trade and economics outlook. It has nothing to do with the personality of those involved.
Ya, but the jagii mistake the pursuit of liberal trade/economics for compassion/understanding ;)
Precisely this.
I was trying to explain how Malcolm constantly gets accused of being a "liberal" because he tries to be understanding and compassionate.
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I made this some time ago based on the old stock ownership info.
That is, btw, an extremely helpful graphic, Hamish. I used to keep it all in a spreadsheet. Much easier to reference this way.
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A little blurb from a level 2 mission "Customs Interdiction":
Caldari Customs Authority
The CCA is a division of the Caldari Business Tribunal, which is the only nationwide law enforcement agency in the Caldari State. The CCA is in charge of policing trade at the borders of Caldari space and enforcing any customs duties or tariffs, though the State generally has few of those with both the Liberal and Practical factions both being free trade advocates. However, the CCA tends to be short-staffed, despite being adequately funded, and as a result they often outsource customs duties to the Navy or corporate security forces, who will in turn sometimes subcontract to individual pod-pilots. In general, customs duties are a low priority (and sometimes an obstruction) for many of the Caldari megacorporations' operations, so they tend to be pushed upon pilots and officers towards the low end of the totem pole.
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That sounds like a delicious excuse to reform the smuggling system with player customs :3
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...that was supposed to be what they were doing, except I haven't heard anything about it actually being implemented. :evil:
I know Dropbear was helping with it before he left, as I talked to him about some ideas for it at the Nashville event. Really hoping it didn't get delayed or put off indefinitely. :s
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they often outsource customs duties to the Navy or corporate security forces
Items like this are what drive me to argue that the vast majority of relationships in the State are contract driven. Even the interaction between two national, "government" agencies is treated as a business transaction.
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I imagine that most of what occurs between corporations is indeed contractual to some degree (even if there's no formal contract).
Where we seem to differ is what defines a "contract." From a very strict perspective, yes, everybody is on a contract of some kind to a corporation. However, I don't think every citizen of the State signs a contract for their employment or even for their provisions, a large part of the relationship appears to be simply employer to employee with social expectations on both regarding their duties and responsibilities toward one another.
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the relationship appears to be simply employer to employee
The relationship between an employer and an employee is spelled out in a contract.
The contract is evidence of employment and all the rights, responsibilities, and privileges that come with being an employee of a particular employer. Anything that is not in a formal contract is hearsay and easily tossed to the way side. Agreements made outside of contractual obligations are meaningless to the corporations, other employees, and New Eden at large.
In the State, a person's employee contract is their evidence that they are indeed a "citizen" of a State entity and not some vagabond or worse.
Unlike the Federation (citizens), Republic (citizens), or Empire (subjects), the State's corporations have no "natural" obligation to any particular individual. They are obligated to their contracted employees, wherever in the cluster they may be (unless it violates the terms of their employee contract).
It is the State's dark side, without contracts stored with the CBT or some other third-party, the State does not know you exist. There are no "natural rights of men" in the State.
Rather than beg the question of a social contract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract), the corporations that formed the State had a pre-existing system (employee contracts under the model of the a Luminaire corporation) of establishing explicitly the relationship between authority (the corporation) and people.
This explicit relationship is ripe for abuse by authority and it was. The societal expectations of Heiian were not followed and it took rebellion to terrify authority into doing so again.
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the relationship appears to be simply employer to employee
The relationship between an employer and an employee is spelled out in a contract.
The contract is evidence of employment and all the rights, responsibilities, and privileges that come with being an employee of a particular employer. Anything that is not in a formal contract is hearsay and easily tossed to the way side. Agreements made outside of contractual obligations are meaningless to the corporations, other employees, and New Eden at large.
In the State, a person's employee contract is their evidence that they are indeed a "citizen" of a State entity and not some vagabond or worse.
Unlike the Federation (citizens), Republic (citizens), or Empire (subjects), the State's corporations have no "natural" obligation to any particular individual. They are obligated to their contracted employees, wherever in the cluster they may be (unless it violates the terms of their employee contract).
It is the State's dark side, without contracts stored with the CBT or some other third-party, the State does not know you exist. There are no "natural rights of men" in the State.
Rather than beg the question of a social contract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract), the corporations that formed the State had a pre-existing system (employee contracts under the model of the a Luminaire corporation) of establishing explicitly the relationship between authority (the corporation) and people.
This explicit relationship is ripe for abuse by authority and it was. The societal expectations of Heiian were not followed and it took rebellion to terrify authority into doing so again.
Great stuff. Well thought out.
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That makes sense, thanks.
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The relationship between an employer and an employee is spelled out in a contract.
The contract is evidence of employment and all the rights, responsibilities, and privileges that come with being an employee of a particular employer. Anything that is not in a formal contract is hearsay and easily tossed to the way side. Agreements made outside of contractual obligations are meaningless to the corporations, other employees, and New Eden at large.
Not necessarily, a vast majority of employment here in the U.S. is employment-at-will. Now, you can argue that there is an implicit contract defined by laws and statutes, but I'm thinking that's not the definition you're thinking of when you refer to contracts.
In the State, a person's employee contract is their evidence that they are indeed a "citizen" of a State entity and not some vagabond or worse.
Unlike the Federation (citizens), Republic (citizens), or Empire (subjects), the State's corporations have no "natural" obligation to any particular individual. They are obligated to their contracted employees, wherever in the cluster they may be (unless it violates the terms of their employee contract).
It is the State's dark side, without contracts stored with the CBT or some other third-party, the State does not know you exist. There are no "natural rights of men" in the State.
Is there reference to employment-based citizenship somewhere? Why can't there be birth certificates and a unique identifier assigned to each individual regardless of employment that carries all of your work history, criminal records, accrued retirement benefits, etc? If the corporation came and stole your 3-year old from your house long before they were old enough to work, you'd have no records of their existence?
Rather than beg the question of a social contract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract), the corporations that formed the State had a pre-existing system (employee contracts under the model of the a Luminaire corporation) of establishing explicitly the relationship between authority (the corporation) and people.
This explicit relationship is ripe for abuse by authority and it was. The societal expectations of Heiian were not followed and it took rebellion to terrify authority into doing so again.
Whether explicit contracts or implicit statutes/legislation, whether contractual or at-will, any system can be abused to the detriment of the workers.
I guess mostly I'm just curious if there's any referencing/sourcing for the claims you're making here, because there's no qualifiers or room for interpretation, it reads as very absolute and final. I'm not in any way saying "this is wrong" I'm just looking for some authoritative weight to it, especially the employment-based citizenship/evidence-you-even-exist part.
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It is the State's dark side, without contracts stored with the CBT or some other third-party, the State does not know you exist. There are no "natural rights of men" in the State.
Is there reference to employment-based citizenship somewhere? Why can't there be birth certificates and a unique identifier assigned to each individual regardless of employment that carries all of your work history, criminal records, accrued retirement benefits, etc? If the corporation came and stole your 3-year old from your house long before they were old enough to work, you'd have no records of their existence?
Many employers take an interest in whether you have dependents at home like children or adult relatives who require special care. There are sometimes tangible benefits afforded to people with dependents simply because they are employees and the company wants to take care of them. This is much more prevalent in government employment, which is precisely what we're talking about when we discuss the State because the corporation is the government. I imagine that children are written into a parent's contract (probably accounted for long before they are actually born by standard clauses in all employment contracts), and until a child is of working age themselves they are protected by the corporation through this. If for some reason a parent were to void their contract, some corporation might require that any children be surrendered to become wards of the company while others might kick the entire family out of the system.
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I guess mostly I'm just curious if there's any referencing/sourcing for the claims you're making here, because there's no qualifiers or room for interpretation, it reads as very absolute and final. I'm not in any way saying "this is wrong" I'm just looking for some authoritative weight to it, especially the employment-based citizenship/evidence-you-even-exist part.
I did not write it with "escape words" but it is my opinion and not something where CCP has said - "The State runs on contracts be it person to company, person to person, or company to company."
It is how I imagine the State, a corporate entity from the very start. A confederation of feudal corporations, created during an interstellar war.
In the State, a person's employee contract is their evidence that they are indeed a "citizen" of a State entity and not some vagabond or worse.
Unlike the Federation (citizens), Republic (citizens), or Empire (subjects), the State's corporations have no "natural" obligation to any particular individual. They are obligated to their contracted employees, wherever in the cluster they may be (unless it violates the terms of their employee contract).
It is the State's dark side, without contracts stored with the CBT or some other third-party, the State does not know you exist. There are no "natural rights of men" in the State.
Is there reference to employment-based citizenship somewhere? Why can't there be birth certificates and a unique identifier assigned to each individual regardless of employment that carries all of your work history, criminal records, accrued retirement benefits, etc? If the corporation came and stole your 3-year old from your house long before they were old enough to work, you'd have no records of their existence?
This is my opinion.
The State (especially pre-CPD), had no use for each individual having a State assigned unique identifier (in the US our SSN). Most Caldari will have medical records, they will have evidence of their birth in such & such facility and why they were born there (versus a competing medical center). Their parents might even have access to those records.
The corporation might just come take all the children, even if there is a record of it. The schooling contract that the company had with the educational development company has changed and now it is centralized on the station in orbit.
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I wonder if the House of Records (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/House_of_Records_(NPC_corporation)) might not play a role in that.
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I feel these links are relevant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_paternalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_paternalism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_town (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_town)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotown)
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Nice. Very relevant links Mithfindel.
I began running the Caldari epic arc today. I thought this text was highly relevant:
Bad Habits
Rivalry among the corporations of the Caldari State is a daily reality, even today. The breakdown of relations with the Federation, opportunistic Guristas invasions and countless other problems facing the Caldari people have done little to ease inter-corporate tensions, some of which predate the existence of the State itself.
In other situations, rather than unifying the Caldari people, external threats only cause further divisiveness, and it is not uncommon for such issues to be leapt upon and twisted towards serving the agenda of one corporation or another. Survival within the harsh political arenas of the State requires a mastery of political cunning. To succeed requires even more – not only the ability to deeply understand events, but the capacity to shape them as well.
So, in the State it's not always a matter of 'me against my brothers, my brothers and I against our cousins, and my cousins and I against strangers'. Corps will fight enough other even in the face of a serious external threat. (Implication: factionalism, factionalism, factionalism...)
As I play through the arc, I will record the mission text and flavor stuff that is presented and try to put together a post covering the finer details and implications.
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I was also a bit hasty there: The "mill town" article was certainly trying to convey what we call here "ruukki", or in Swedish "bruk", in specific bruksmentalitet (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruksmentalitet) or "mill town mentality". You will likely need Google translate with that article, unless you know Swedish. In short, in the traditional Scandinavian mill town (16th century to perhaps up to early 20th century) the mill provided most of the communal services. In turn, the local "patron" (manager) acted the leader of an insular community with a very strict hierarchy and high peer pressure to fit in.
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I'd also like to insert here that I think that a Caldari 'corporation' may not be entirely a corporation as we're used to the idea. Certainly they share many features, but I think there are some differences (maybe both in the original style they were based on, and in the ways they have evolved as they became the major unit of Caldari society).
I would suggest that there might be both employment contracts and some form of citizenship. You work for a corporation, but you are also from a corporation in a way that is usually reserved for countries. You might not have a State ID, but you certainly have a corporate ID, even if you don't work for that corporation for whatever reason.
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You mean the way my wife and kids are, to a degree, registered with the megacorp that employs me (because of benefits and whatnot)?
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Yeah, to a degree. But I think there are probably relationships between people and corporations that we don't have in RL as well. Because even in a company town, the Governor of the state isn't literally also an employee of the corporation. Nor your members of congress (even if we're talking about 19th century or early 20th century super blatantly corrupt congressmen). Nor is the President the CEO of the company you work for, and all the Cabinet positions aren't the executive board, etc. Even in places like Egypt where you have pervasive ownership or private industries by a government entity (the military, in that case), the degree to which the things that are the domain of the government and things which are the domain of 'companies' are interchangeable isn't close to the same.
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That's rather what I was trying to emphasize through the original draft, Silver and I'm glad you reiterated it.
The thing about the Caldari megacorporations is that they're effectively city-states that are structured like a corporation.
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I see them as corporations structured like nation-states. You must pronounce "tomato" and "potato" the same way I do, dammit! :evil:
[spoiler]:bear:[/spoiler]
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So far I really love this idea. And the question about the caldari corprate state and its structur.
I reall like this two charts: here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3345.msg52186#msg52186) and here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3345.msg52203#msg52203).
The structure
I have small question. It sonds a little bit weird, but what would you count a public - publicish - "hard" institutions*.
As for that I would start with the easiest ones. The institutions which executes the laws, or partially doing it. As institiution for the respected region (realm of autority) and the respected range (realm of legal); Im speaking of the police forces/security forces:
CBD Corporation = Spacelane Patrol
Hyasyoda Corporation = Corporate Police Force
Ishukone Watch = Ishukone Corporation; Ishukone Corporation = Ishukone Watch
Lai Dai Corporation = Lai Dai Protection Service
Kaalakiota Corporation = Home Guard
Nugoeihuvi Corporation = Internal Security
Sukuuvestaa Corporation = Peace and Order Unit
Wiyrkomi Corporation = Wiyrkomi Peace Corps
As you can see, I have order them alphabetical and not in the "informal" order of the three blocs. You also already see all the "megas". Which are also in the business of daily administration of the state. You can see them as the "Lords of the respected region", as like the amarrian Holders. If we imagen on this stage a chart it would be most likely a boring ones... with the 8 megas and lines which goes from them down to their security forces (like the heir (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Amarr_Heirs) ones). On the upperside of the chart would be one line go to the Chief Executive Panel. As it is jointly owned and run by the Caldari megacorporations. In the gray bloc would stand: "The CEOs of the mega corporations sit on the board of the Panel." As for the Chief Executive Panel one lines goes to the Caldari Business Tribunal, because "tribunal justices are appointed by the Chief Executive Panel." Now back to the megas.... one line goes form them also to the House of Records (visial would be next to the Chief Executive Panel). With a text which said: "set up by the Caldari mega corporations to act as a central source for all this information."
So far, it is just a first step, but it would look a little like the heir chart on the wiki talk page (here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Amarr_Heirs)). But like I said just an idea....
Now to the point, why I choose alphabetical order and not a informal/ideological order? Because for me the the stuff what the believe in isnt so important for me. Thats why I also choose "hard" institutions in the first place (to have the values, norms, sanctions, taboos, customs, traditions, code of conduct out of the way.... with them you always have the problem to visualizing them (as I wrote here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2652.msg43880#msg43880) the values, norms, of the navy). But it is just me... I have always try to get them out of the way ;)..... but like I said it is just me ;)..... Ehm maybe a chart without a bloc seperation would be easier to make? What you people think about that idea? In the end it would be more unpolitical and more in the way of the Emperor, Heir or Privy Council charts.... which just show the structure without any values, norms (if you want add them, you can do it like in the Privy Council page on the wiki, with a "underline" ?).....
Just an idea.... but I alos happy to roll with any other idea... Im still reading tru the topic.
*Hard institutions in the meaning of: formal, legal, institution, that structure political, economic and social interactions of a larger goup.
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Ishukone Watch = Ishukone Corporation
It's backwards!
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Ishukone Watch = Ishukone Corporation
Oh, I see :eek:.... will rework it :lol:
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I'd also like to insert here that I think that a Caldari 'corporation' may not be entirely a corporation as we're used to the idea. Certainly they share many features, but I think there are some differences (maybe both in the original style they were based on, and in the ways they have evolved as they became the major unit of Caldari society).
Corporations IRL solely exist to make a profit. Ultimately that's all they exist for. So yeah, I don't think Caldari corporations are traditional in that sense, since they also represent their people and culture. The Caldari are profit-driven for the same way the Gallente are; it produces a healthy society (even if the Gallente do it via entrepreneurs, individual benefit results in collective benefits w/ losers, while the Caldari in 'Power politics' it says collective benefit result in individual benefits w/ losers)
Even the Practicals, who are apparently "ruthless" and "unethical" by the reader's standard, would justify (as per Ken's chart) their actions as "stability and collective prosperity no matter what". Certainly, they might dismiss the concept of ethics according to those who deem them as "unethical" as a hindering and unpractical stumbling block to achieve the greater good.
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Corporations, companies, governments, organizations exist IRL to achieve goals that individuals alone could not achieve otherwise. Achieving a profit, a positive net income, is critical to any corporation, company, governments, group of people growing. If the entity has a negative net income, then they are unstable and likely to fail.
The income may be measured in currency, tonnage of food, head of cattle, minerals, etc.
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The facility you were instructed to raid? It has not been under Hyasyoda control for almost a year now. I was told that if you do your research you should find that we also legally rented the area from Sukuuvestaa too, before Serpentis overran it and forced us out. Of course, SuVee could pay the House of Records and the Caldari Business Tribunal a few administrative fees to make that information disappear, if someone were to ever poke around.
This is from the Caldari Epic Arc. Just another example of where ideal and practice often diverge.
Corporations, companies, governments, organizations exist IRL to achieve goals that individuals alone could not achieve otherwise. Achieving a profit, a positive net income, is critical to any corporation, company, governments, group of people growing. If the entity has a negative net income, then they are unstable and likely to fail.
The income may be measured in currency, tonnage of food, head of cattle, minerals, etc.
This is true to a point. There are cases where profit for profit's sake becomes a destabilizing force of its own, however. Exhausting resources, poisoning your environment and neglecting real human needs to create novelty products and high-turnover consumable devices can be very destructive. There does come a point where the naked pursuit of profit is incompatible with long-term sustainability of life.