Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Seismic Stan on 28 Jan 2012, 20:59
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In December I interviewed CCP Dropbear and CCP Headfirst for Voice from the Void podcast. Part of what we discussed concerned the future of content and storyline matters in EVE and some of their statements stuck with me. The long and short of it was that for roleplaying concerns to be given any weight within the halls of CCP, the players need to present a unified front.
A full discussion of their statements and how we players might best use the system to our benefit can be found here at Freebooted (http://freebooted.blogspot.com/2012/01/squeaky-wheel-of-player-power.html).
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Unified front compared to the Null Sec blocks?
:eek:
:bash:
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Ok now that is a very very interesting comment.
I wonder if we can actually steer the RP focus group (ie: us) plus the general population of eve
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Unified front compared to the Null Sec blocks?
Exactly. I see Verone has sent out a clarion call of sorts in this thread (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3054.0). There's a figurehead we can all get behind.
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Ok, I'm going to be the jerk here....
How many members are there of this forum versus how many people are in null-sec?
I'm no space marine, I can't take 100-1 odds.
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I'm beginning to ponder an unofficial RPer CSM member (someone who can act as an agreeable ambassador) wouldn't be that hard to do.
As many others have pointed out, the CSM itself is not at all conductive to our particular wants and we do not have the resources to compete with Nullblock voting. Having someone who could funnel our collective opinions through into a digestible format at least for the storyline team might suffice, though.
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^ This I could get behind.
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What in terms of RP community concerns can or should be addressed by the CSM?
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What in terms of RP community concerns can or should be addressed by the CSM?
Ambient wildlife (NPC environments)
Story stagnation (FW, Incursions, Empyrean Age)
Meaningful allegiances to NPCs (Sov bonuses, tax cuts, special station services, etc)
Prime Fiction Cohesion (basic fact checking, inconsistency clean ups, retcons, etc)
some things off the top of my head
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Ambient wildlife (NPC environments)
Story stagnation (FW, Incursions, Empyrean Age)
Meaningful allegiances to NPCs (Sov bonuses, tax cuts, special station services, etc)
Prime Fiction Cohesion (basic fact checking, inconsistency clean ups, retcons, etc)
some things off the top of my head
Those are excellent concerns. These concerns need to be clearly stated and defined. The reasoning also needs to be clearly expressed. Why are these concerns to players and why should developers care? How would improving these help the game as a whole? CCP design the game, and they know the underlying systems (code, that is) better than we do as well as the necessary resources to fix these issues. I would humbly suggest not to tell CCP what needs to be done; simply pitch your reasoning for improvements to be made. After that you should get a strong lobby bloc to support it. No sense in rushing to get an advocate when you can't easily and concisely explain your case.
I completely support any effort to further a more "immersive" EVE experience, and will do anything necessary to assist.
Anything.
ALSO:
You should probably prioritize issues by a "want/need/immersion breaking" categorizing process. For instance: I would place fiction cohesion in the "immersion breaking" category, Meaningful NPC allegiance as a "want" and addressing story stagnation (in-game) as a "need".
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Ambient wildlife (NPC environments)
Story stagnation (FW, Incursions, Empyrean Age)
Meaningful allegiances to NPCs (Sov bonuses, tax cuts, special station services, etc)
Prime Fiction Cohesion (basic fact checking, inconsistency clean ups, retcons, etc)
some things off the top of my head
Those are excellent concerns. These concerns need to be clearly stated and defined. The reasoning also needs to be clearly expressed. Why are these concerns to players and why should developers care? How would improving these help the game as a whole? CCP design the game, and they know the underlying systems (code, that is) better than we do as well as the necessary resources to fix these issues. I would humbly suggest not to tell CCP what needs to be done; simply pitch your reasoning for improvements to be made. After that you should get a strong lobby bloc to support it. No sense in rushing to get an advocate when you can't easily and concisely explain your case.
I completely support any effort to further a more "immersive" EVE experience, and will do anything necessary to assist.
Anything.
ALSO:
You should probably prioritize issues by a "want/need/immersion breaking" categorizing process. For instance: I would place fiction cohesion in the "immersion breaking" category, Meaningful NPC allegiance as a "want" and addressing story stagnation (in-game) as a "need".
I agree with your points, but that is perhaps a discussion best kept in a sister thread to this topic. I have this habit of hijacking threads like this with my ideas apparently.
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Hm.
I will think on this.
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With regard to making a case for immersive storyline content, I believe the case that should be made to the CSM/CCP is essentially one of not putting all their eggs in one basket. Part of what makes their product unique is the rich depth of lore and the immersive nature of the game world. Incarna was intended to unlock a new demographic and but for the glacially slow and botched roll-out it may have done (and perhaps one day still will).
Appeasing the stats-obsessed min-maxers is fine and necessary, however that is a market they can sustain but does not have much as much potential growth in it. And any business wants growth. Finding new ways to tell the story of EVE has huge potential. More narrative, more interactive player-driven experiences would mean more customers.
When I spoke to CCP Dropbear at EVE Vegas, we discussed ways of promoting the storyline and content stuff to a wider playerbase (which is where Tech4 came from). He said he was wary of the Arek'Jaalan Project concept becoming too successful too quickly as he have the resources to accommodate a sudden influx of player interest. However, with steady growth a case could be made to the decision-makers.
As Dropbear and Headfirst said in their interview:
CCP Dropbear: "Part of it comes down to how much demand we as developers can demonstrate for a certain feature to our bosses... If we can say 'hey, over the space of four weeks I've just managed to get 200 people to donate thirty billion ISKs worth of stuff for a fluff roleplay project that has no influence on any mechanic in the game'... It helps sell to them that there's interest in this."
CCP Headfirst: "Roleplayers are a powerful lobby. If you put your money and your time and your effort and your forum posts and everything where your mouth is, just like any other lobby you can get things done."
CCP Dropbear: "It gives us more ammunition to take back to our bosses and say 'hey we should allocate more time to this' or 'there's some real interest'."
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[edit] nm
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... Part of what makes their product unique is the rich depth of lore and the immersive nature of the game world.
I have to disagree with this.
The lore and the game mechanics, time and again, show that the game world is a shallow space opera setting.
It is the stubborn insistence of roleplayers that create the depth to the game world, because they spend their time interacting with the shallow game world in 'deep' ways.
I have my own theories why people get so immersed and hung up on EVE that are not welcome on these boards, so I shall not dwell on that...
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The lore and the game mechanics, time and again, show that the game world is now a shallow space opera setting.
FYP
It wasn't always like this :|
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I believe the concept of lore, prime fiction, storyline development and all that jazz becomes an "upper layer feature" to the game. It adds an intangible content that players can use for themselves.
As its something that do not requires programming per-se, though it might be helped or enhanced if you put programmer hours into it, but you can come up with something really simple to begin with.
The problem lies between how much people CCP thinks can be enticed or entertained by EvE fiction in comparison to a new shiny feature or fix/balance in game mechanics. This truly presents a dilemma as problably the playerbase will lean towards actual fixes.
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... Part of what makes their product unique is the rich depth of lore and the immersive nature of the game world.
I have to disagree with this.
The lore and the game mechanics, time and again, show that the game world is a shallow space opera setting.
It is the stubborn insistence of roleplayers that create the depth to the game world, because they spend their time interacting with the shallow game world in 'deep' ways.
I have my own theories why people get so immersed and hung up on EVE that are not welcome on these boards, so I shall not dwell on that...
I don't dispute that roleplayers add an extra layer of depth to the immersion, but you're thinking like a roleplayer. From the perspective of a casual player or an outsider there is a beguiling darkness and a sense of wonder in simply moving through the world and being overwhelmed by the detail. Roleplayers tap into that and build beyond it, but that is a niche within a niche. At the opposite end of the spectrum are the min/maxers for whom the enjoyment is in the DPS and the Kill:Death ratios.
I'm talking about promoting the casual enjoyment of your "shallow space opera". New and/or casual players have the overwhelming sense of "so much going on" because they are not yet judging and dismissing aspects of the game as we more established players are inclined to. They still have that sense of awe and wonder. To them, the fact that there are cadres of RPers out there somewhere pushing the storyline forward whilst conversely in the far-reaches there are thousands of null-sec zombies participating in an endless grand bloodbath IS part of the immersion.
My point is that sold right, they are both equally powerful motivators for people to get involved in EVE Online. However, presently only one is being properly identified and exploited.
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... Part of what makes their product unique is the rich depth of lore and the immersive nature of the game world.
I have to disagree with this.
The lore and the game mechanics, time and again, show that the game world is a shallow space opera setting.
It is the stubborn insistence of roleplayers that create the depth to the game world, because they spend their time interacting with the shallow game world in 'deep' ways.
I have my own theories why people get so immersed and hung up on EVE that are not welcome on these boards, so I shall not dwell on that...
I don't dispute that roleplayers add an extra layer of depth to the immersion, but you're thinking like a roleplayer. From the perspective of a casual player or an outsider there is a beguiling darkness and a sense of wonder in simply moving through the world and being overwhelmed by the detail. Roleplayers tap into that and build beyond it, but that is a niche within a niche. At the opposite end of the spectrum are the min/maxers for whom the enjoyment is in the DPS and the Kill:Death ratios.
I'm talking about promoting the casual enjoyment of your "shallow space opera". New and/or casual players have the overwhelming sense of "so much going on" because they are not yet judging and dismissing aspects of the game as we more established players are inclined to. They still have that sense of awe and wonder. To them, the fact that there are cadres of RPers out there somewhere pushing the storyline forward whilst conversely in the far-reaches there are thousands of null-sec zombies participating in an endless grand bloodbath IS part of the immersion.
My point is that sold right, they are both equally powerful motivators for people to get involved in EVE Online. However, presently only one is being properly identified and exploited.
This is a good post. Thank you for your input on this.
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Further to this discussion (and with the intention of putting some questions together for Verone in his Fanfest -Questions for CCP (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3054.0) thread), I instead went on a bit of a blogging crusade. The result was Power Gamers vs Content Seekers (http://freebooted.blogspot.com/2012/01/power-gamers-vs-content-seekers.html).
I would value your input.
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Stan, I apologize for my first post in this thread. After reading your blog there, I can whole heartedly throw myself behind what you are saying.
I just hope folks higher up than I will listen.
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You made it to EVENEWS24, nice job.
I figured the response would be simply LOLRPFAGSLOL.
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You made it to EVENEWS24, nice job.
I figured the response would be simply LOLRPFAGSLOL.
There will undoubtedly be some of that. On my blog I've appended the article with an explanation to the null-sec players that are bound to miss the point and assume I'm ranting against null-sec. Entertainingly, Riverini syndicated the article before I added that, so shitposting will undoubtedly ensue. I've also posted it on Reddit, which usually meets with rage. Surprisingly, this time I've had some intelligent responses.
There is hope amongst the hopeless.