Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 29 Nov 2011, 12:51
-
So...this is how it works.
A major, medium and minor "outpost" will appear in every FW system every 30 minutes. Other types (eg. installation, facility, compound, stronghold) will spawn at random. They will not stack on one another, meaning if you haven't done the three outposts, they'll stay where they are.
This means that a system could be made vulnerable in 5 hours (slightly less if enemy-occupied friendly system), if unopposed.
Hm...no idea what to think of that. If you make occupancy and plexing have meaning, then bam. Dynamic battlezone.
-
Hm...no idea what to think of that. If you make occupancy and plexing have meaning, then bam. Dynamic battlezone.
5h sounds a bit short. More like station ping pong. Hm.
-
it means lots more tiresome threads on IGS, by people with OOC issues against things, as you can see in several threads on eve online official forums and on here.
"oh, they only won by exploiting" and so on.
very, very tiresome.
-
We already captured Sifilar
-
If they add to the time it takes, say, atl a day or so, then this might work. If not, it will be a domino-effect based on time-zones and who has the more non-FW alliance homies.
I think this might work well, if done well, but if they mess up, it WILL make it even worse.
Being a cynical hater, I'm going to vote for option 2. All of the Federal systems are likely to be lost again, only this will take 1-2 weeks this time around, not 3-4 months.
Let's hope I'm proven horribly, horribly wrong. I would like that, for a change.
*EDIT* Fixed some typos and altered some lines for clarity.
-
Maybe it's time to leave FW. :s
-
For the me, the real and final fix for FW would be including the following:
Two mechanics to "weaken" the NPC sovereignity on a FW star system
1- Complexes
Deadspace Fortifications used by the NPC navies of each empire to serve as staging points for their navy fleets. Two categories only:
Garrison: intended for t1 frigs, faction frigs. NPC rats there are frigs and dessies.
Facility: inteded for t2 frigs, t1 frigs, faction frigs and destroyers. NPC rats there are frigs, dessies and cruisers.
No further sizes or difficulty grades.....just those two, providing newbies and vets a "controlled" fighting enviroment where you can travel all over low-sec with some degree of liberty (speedy stuff is easier to move around and to loose), but also means more sites to be "captured".
2- Missions
Missions from level 1 to level 4 as they currently exist. Each mission not only gives ISK and LP, but also adds a small ammount of Victory Points towards contesting the system on which the system was run.
Capturing systems is through the current Bunker mechanic, with a slight adjustment:
Bunker Hitpoints reduced in half, but a permanent (and constantly respawning) NPC fleet guarding it, this defense fleet has a mix of scrambler frigs, Ewar cruisers, BCs and BSs. Assaulting fleets cannot just "sit and shot", and a small fleet of defenders can choose to side with the rats.
Any outlaw who enters plexes or missions or the vicinity of bunkers will be shooted by NPCs if they don't already have aggro on other targets in the same location.
So in essence:
-PvErs do contribute to the control and dispute of FW systems
-Plexers fight in a more balanced enviroment (no more t1 frigs tanking large installations with multiple BSs), more newbie friendly too
-Bunker busting is a coordinated effort to deal with the NPC fleet defending the site, but requires less time to shoot through its HP ammount.
-Pies are shot by NPC navy
The permanent wardec thingie should remain as is.
-
They should remove occupancy and plexing and leave it as a free wardec.
-
It's hilarious, really. We can let Damar+co take Intaki, then just take it back whenever we have a free 5 hours on a Saturday evening.
Gallente general militia have already taken one system and will probably take a second by the time this day is over.
-
and who has the more non-FW alliance homies.
As one of those non-FW alliance homies, let me tell you that the amount of influence we have on FW is pretty minor (much to our IC annoyance and my OOC agreement), especially as we don't want to end up -10 outlaws after two engagements.
-
And the ultimate pissing contest continues.
-
and who has the more non-FW alliance homies.
As one of those non-FW alliance homies, let me tell you that the amount of influence we have on FW is pretty minor (much to our IC annoyance and my OOC agreement), especially as we don't want to end up -10 outlaws after two engagements.
It's not just a direct firepower thing - right now, there's zero monetary reward mechanics for plexing. Compared to other activities...
- It doesn't pay anywhere near as good as L4 missions, even assuming you're popping the rats and grabbing tags.
- It doesn't increase the likelyhood of "good fights" or even competitions - trust me, I had an Enyo, Rupture, Thrasher and Firetail all show up before they tried to flush my Thrasher out of a 'plex, and I know Amarr are just as bad blobbers.
- It doesn't even increase your likelyhood of getting fights, period. Since you're stuck in a static location, enemies can easily scout you and choose to ignore you if a imbalanced fight isn't likely; conversely, the acceleration gate means that anyone inside can easily see what's coming and choose to leave.
Combined with the ability for militias to now "choose" the timezone in which a bunker shoot will take place... yeah. FW has just been turned into old-style POS/sov pingpong. Minus the advantage of actually holding territory and likelyhood to have any good fights in the process.
-
I think what they really need is to make it a more group-oriented cooperative effort to take or defend systems.
IE instead of a handful of people pinging plexes, you should have people of ALL eve disciplines forced to participate in order to flip the systems.
Maybe manufacturers have to produce x 'war materials' for ground combat,
Maybe couriers have to run 'x' 'supplies' to the forward bases
etc etc, make it encouraging financially for the carebears to get involved.
Ban Cynos, obvously. If it's supposed to be 'pvp light' then you can't have the big boys dropping in to pound people randomly.
Right now it looks like risk for no rewards from my point of view. In 0.0 I could harvest moon goo and kill extremely valuable rats to pay for my pvp addiction. I don't see any cash rewards for FW that come close.
-
instead of a handful of people pinging plexes, you should have people of ALL eve disciplines forced to participate in order to flip the systems.
Thats why i'm proposing plexes + missions to be the way to capture a system. But adding courier missions with high rewards could be a third option added into the mix.
Perhaps a system can only be vulnerable if said system itself has reached a certain threshold and all the surrounding systems are also in a contested state.
On the other hand, FW areas are target rich for both piwates and anti-piwates...... QCATS often enganges outlaws camping gates or large null-sec fleets coming through (we also are a bit naughty and engage neutrals sometimes).
But thats the thing, FW low-sec has only 1 difference with null-sec, you will loose sec status. Everything else is equal, POS, bunker busting, missions, fleets, hotdrops, etc.
Why should it be different ?
The only thing that needs some love is the balance of plexes between each faction (overpowered caldari NPCs vs the rest).
-
It means those who occupy a system by being an occupant in a warzone system will have a much better chance at gaining occupancy for their respective faction.
-
So, about a week on, and obviously this is going kind of one-way on both fronts.
IMO, part of the issue here is thus: This 'fix' did not actually FIX the issue that was being dealt with.
i.e., the problem was that plexes were only evenly redistibuted in lowsec at downtime. After this, each time a plex closed, there was a chance it could be respawned in a high-security system, where it became unscannable, unclosable, and thus unusable by FW until the next DT evened things out again. Combined with natural migration of plexes to uncontested systems, this means that the only really effective way to capture a system is a post-DT rush.
Comes along CCP and says "alright, we're going to give you 3 plexes, 1 of each size every 30 minutes, on top of any 'random spawns' so you can go on capturing even after that." Sounds cool, etc...
Issue is, they never fixed those 'random' spawns being most present just after DT. So, now you go in, run the outposts first, then everything else - and by the time you're finished, 3 more outposts have respawned.
While it should nominally be possible to couneract this by plexing later on in the day, the number of people who are willing to go out and plex compared to the number of people who are willing to drop several ships on that plexer is discouraging for even the hard-core plexers*, let alone any rookies.
* Sasawong not included. I think he's gone insane and finds some manic pleasure in plexing. :P
-
* Sasawong not included. I think he's gone insane and finds some manic pleasure in plexing. :P
♥ Sasa. That man is awesome.
-
IMO, part of the issue here is thus: This 'fix' did not actually FIX the issue that was being dealt with.
i.e., the problem was that plexes were only evenly redistibuted in lowsec at downtime. After this, each time a plex closed, there was a chance it could be respawned in a high-security system, where it became unscannable, unclosable, and thus unusable by FW until the next DT evened things out again.
...
Wait, what? The FW plex spawner sometimes puts FW plexes in HISEC? Bugreport this please!
-
Why does it seem every "fix" or "feature" for the RPers is a backhanded "Here, this will teach you cunts to bitch and whine" kind of gesture?
We wanted the plexes not to be all spawned at the same time. So, to 'fix' this, that process is not fucking touched, and added to it is MORE PLEXES THAN YOU CAN FUCKING HANDLE YOU NOBS HAPPY? COMPLAIN AGAIN AND SEE WHAT YOU GET.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
-
They seriously did that? Oh lord, or rather, :psyccp:
I suggested things before from my lofty view outside of FW, but I always want more PVE and FW is supposed to be PVP-lite people keep saying, so why not this.
Cryo jam all systems unless CCP wants some big event and doesn't mind getting gate crashed by the null-secers.
Revamp the plex system to only spawn minor complexes and remove all NPCs from them. The complexes would continously respawn every so often up to a maximum of x per system. And the bunker becomes a minor plex as well.
Remove all PVE content, or make it something that is like the pirate epic arcs, for small fast ships only. Maybe add in something for blockade runners as well. I'd like that.
And to make it pay, anyone in faction warfare gets FW points each week for the number of kills they get or systems they capture. They then get paid a certain amount of isk for each point. Maybe add a bounty system so that the top five or ten FW pilots get a huge bounty on their heads for anyone else ont he other side to claim if they kill them.
There we go. With nothing but minor plexes on the field, only frigates and destroyers can be used, and those can be trained for quickly, even to tech 2 status. Anyone who wants to roam in somthing bigger can, but they can't catch the plexers. Tying a payout to FW points means that people who do good in PVP or Plexing will get paid, and people who don't, won't, same as the rest of eve. Any FW'ers have something to add to the above? Really asking, even as theory, fixing CCPs game for them is kinda fun.
And Graelyn, yeah. I still keep hoping for an RP release, but I know that is never going to happen.
-
I am not sure that I like your idea on limiting plex sizes. Only minors ? I quite enjoyed bigger fights in plexes, especially in mediums with cruisers... Or even restricted majors with BCs. Minor plexes fights, as fun as they are, are very, very limited, considering the very few ships you can bring inside.
Other than that I think that most people already agree that plexing should be primarily rewarded with LPs, and then missions, but with a significantly less amount of LPs (just to offer an alternative with a lot less rewards if you find no plexes or can't plex).
My idea to make plexing less boring was just to add goals inside, like helping your forces to capture the outpost by protecting their transports, things like that. Blowing up stuff at least instead of running a stupid timer. And if they do not want to do that, they should at least fix these damn inegalities between faction NPCs, the Caldari ones (missiles and lol ecm) and especially the Minmatar ones (missiles + PAINTERS). I have always been disgusted to see the enemy capturing majors with nano vigils. >: (
-
IMO, part of the issue here is thus: This 'fix' did not actually FIX the issue that was being dealt with.
i.e., the problem was that plexes were only evenly redistibuted in lowsec at downtime. After this, each time a plex closed, there was a chance it could be respawned in a high-security system, where it became unscannable, unclosable, and thus unusable by FW until the next DT evened things out again.
...
Wait, what? The FW plex spawner sometimes puts FW plexes in HISEC? Bugreport this please!
Bug has been known for months and reported several times; in fact, IIRC this explenation originally came from a dev (the plexes cannot actually be scanned in highsec - hence the reason they can't be run, closed, and potentially returned to lowsec until the next DT respawn).
But, first there were minor "fixes" to FW tweaking the more egregious issues (plexes being buggable to count themselves down, being able to continuously decline missions until you got JUST the one you wanted, etc) and giving us other "tidbits" to try to satisfy us, then :18months:, then :Incarna:, and now :20%layoffs:.
-
Dont tell me im going to be coming back to a game with nothing worth to do anymore?
-
@ Lyn
Well, the reason for minors only was in line with the stated goals of FW. PVP-lite, and newb friendly. Larger plexes are fine, but I still think that the majority of the plexes should be minors for the above reason.
And I forgot about LPs being the faction war points. So forget that part of it.
And no matter how you fix the NPCs, they will always be un-equal. You can not make a rifter a punisher, and in my opinion, you shouldn't, which is one reason why I keep saying get rid of all of them. I don't like nano-ships either, which is another, but I think everyone should have the chance to trya nd slip into some system and play cat and mouse running plexes. If someone in FW wants to defend a system, they should get in there and do it themselves. I was keeping the button since its already in the game and simplier to leave in there. Though I think it is pretty stupid as well. I would love to see them do something like the Sansha incursion stuff, where you have to hack the thing, or something, but without the NPCs.
-
I agree then, but the majority being minors does not equal to"only minors".
And for NPCs, there is un-equal and un-equal. Every ship is un-equal ingame for that they are simply different from each other, but at least they are (more or less...), or supposed to be balanced. Same for weapons and everything else. I do not see any reason why plexes should not be balanced. It was extremly frustrating to see minmatar capturing plexes in lol expandable frigates, alone, when we had to use pve ships like passive drakes or arbitrators to capture our plexes ALONE.
-
One think I was thinking about after one too many glasses of wine was this. Ban cynos in FW systems, have bunker be only jump in point and only for faction occupying system. When bunker becomes vulnerable it's available to all.
I'm well aware this would give defending faction a potentially hideous advantage but I'm hoping that the fact they can only jump to bunker at least partially mitigates this and could possibly encourage attackers to take the fight off the gates and into plexes.
Also adds an actual reason to occupy systems beyond the ping pong.
Ps also aware this would have a major impact on lo sec POS war.
-
One think I was thinking about after one too many glasses of wine was this. Ban cynos in FW systems, have bunker be only jump in point and only for faction occupying system. When bunker becomes vulnerable it's available to all.
I'm well aware this would give defending faction a potentially hideous advantage but I'm hoping that the fact they can only jump to bunker at least partially mitigates this and could possibly encourage attackers to take the fight off the gates and into plexes.
Also adds an actual reason to occupy systems beyond the ping pong.
Ps also aware this would have a major impact on lo sec POS war.
I would love that. Gives us an avenue where BS's are again the biggest ships able to go up against POS'es and such targets, and prevents the idiotic I-Win button that is light cyno -> jump in 100 capitals -> Kill what don't flee with no counter -> savor un-deserved loot.
With that out of the picture, and possibly with compexes being only minors and/or mediums (allowing frigate skirmishes and cruiser slug-fests with no BC or HAC in the biggers ones and no cruisers in the smaller ones) the big toys like HAC's BC's BS's and so on will become far more usefull in larger scale conflicts like Bunker bust-operations without fear of capital hot-drops to ruin it - you want to oppose that BS heavy fleet? Bring yor own. Old-school BS slugg-fest ensues.
In the first major battle of the Great Northern War, 30 battleships died. This was considered a major achievement in the day. Today, people hardly raize and eye-brow if 3-times that number of capitals die in 0.0. Give us back the BS fleet fights plz.
If these changes were implemented, if nothing else, we would now have frig/desy skirmishes, cruiser engagements and heavy ship fighting becoming a norm in low-sec again. And if they allow alliances to join FW with this, the conflict will intensify greatly, for the better, perhaps. If systems are not cyno-jammed tohugh, perhaps not so good...
Rambling, sorry.
-
I really wouldn't call that "un-deserved." Irritating, disappointing, yeah, but not undeserved.
-
Cyno-jamming FW systems would play merry hell with the jump chains of various alliances and corps and so will most likely never happen because null-seccer happiness > all other concerns in CCP's priority list.
Since we in Mixed Metaphor habitually house our carriers in an FW system (I won't name it but you can probably guess), it would be a little bit of a bitch for us as well, actually. On the gripping hand, it'd also mean we could lord our carriers over anyone who wasn't lucky enough to have them in system when the change hit (at least until someone brought in a battleship blob and owned them).
-
It would also make "deep" low-sec logistics a pain for those currently operating jump freighters to and from forward bases in low-sec.
-
Cyno-jamming FW systems would play merry hell with the jump chains of various alliances and corps and so will most likely never happen because null-seccer happiness > all other concerns in CCP's priority list.
Since we in Mixed Metaphor habitually house our carriers in an FW system (I won't name it but you can probably guess), it would be a little bit of a bitch for us as well, actually. On the gripping hand, it'd also mean we could lord our carriers over anyone who wasn't lucky enough to have them in system when the change hit (at least until someone brought in a battleship blob and owned them).
Or, a carrier-sized WH showed up...why does everybody forget about wormholes?
-
Maybe they cannot balance the NPCs... but they could invest in serious changes to the design and completion mechanics of the various complexes that would help on the overall balance. The pallet of environmental effects and trigger effects is in fact rather extensive, I think it could be put to good use here.
-
Just kill the whole 'capital-jump-to-cyno' thing. Really stupid concept. Yeah, lets make the biggest toughest ships the most mobile and the stealthiest, good idea! Also, with cyno's they can easily project power over a large area rather and be used in offense and defensive all over EVE rather than just giving their owners an important home advantage!
Capitals were poorly designed, and CCP is still reaping the rotten fruits from that decision years later after many 'balancing' patches.
Make capitals only be able to use gates, and give them 0.1 AU warp speed, and most of the problems would be over. Deploying capitals in a theater of war would then give a large advantage, but at a significant cost due to the logistics involved.
-
If that was implemented, the good-old Freighter logistics ops situation would return too. No more carrier-jump logistic ops for the null-seccers, and the logi-chains wolud be considerably longer - and more dangerous.
Without a doubht it would boost piracy, maybe even make a few null-sec alliances go anti-pirate to keep 'their' logi chain systems safe(r), instead of the fact that nearly all null-sec alliances are liable to go pirate in low-sec out of pure boredom in low-intensity periods.
Using capitals in fights would be a considerably more risky affair- slow and cumbersome, they would be hard to save in major fights where 'counter-dropping' was an oft-used tactic to deal with 'OMG THE ENEMY HAS 1 MORE CARRIER WE NEED MORE CAPITALS NAO'.
Long list of other effects I can't be bothered to list, because it would never happen. CCP = Null-sec happiness -> all others not engaging in the EVE 'end-game'. Making it harder to use cap-ships and denying them their easy-to-get hot-drop-and-gank fix? Dream on.
It's more likely they will actually balance FW rats, or dare I mention remove them entierly.
-
Just kill the whole 'capital-jump-to-cyno' thing. Really stupid concept. Yeah, lets make the biggest toughest ships the most mobile and the stealthiest, good idea! Also, with cyno's they can easily project power over a large area rather and be used in offense and defensive all over EVE rather than just giving their owners an important home advantage!
Capitals were poorly designed, and CCP is still reaping the rotten fruits from that decision years later after many 'balancing' patches.
Make capitals only be able to use gates, and give them 0.1 AU warp speed, and most of the problems would be over. Deploying capitals in a theater of war would then give a large advantage, but at a significant cost due to the logistics involved.
Gates: Maybe. However, the cyno mechanic does keep them out of HS though; you'd have to introduce a system secstatus check into the current logic that prevents capitals (except freighters/JFs) from using gates.
Warp speed nerf: That's overkill. Even those big, slow, ugly freighters warp faster than that! (And just ask any freighter or JF pilot how slow 0.5 AU/s warps are.)
Also: please don't nerf capital-sized wormholes. That'd just break C5/C6 space in too many ways to count.
-
Gates: Maybe. However, the cyno mechanic does keep them out of HS though; you'd have to introduce a system secstatus check into the current logic that prevents capitals (except freighters/JFs) from using gates.
It seems to me that this would be trivial to code.
Warp speed nerf: That's overkill. Even those big, slow, ugly freighters warp faster than that! (And just ask any freighter or JF pilot how slow 0.5 AU/s warps are.)
Just an example. Warp speed (and capital movement in general) should be slow enough that capitals can't used as fast-response forces to an enemy strike a few systems away.
Also: please don't nerf capital-sized wormholes. That'd just break C5/C6 space in too many ways to count.
Wormholes: of course no nerf is needed there. Capitals in wormholes are not the super-flexible fast response forces they are in non-WH space. In WH space they are as I think they are best used: strategic assets that take some difficult to move around, and if you move them away from your home base, its difficult to get them back in time if you suffer a surprise attack.
-
If that was implemented, the good-old Freighter logistics ops situation would return too. No more carrier-jump logistic ops for the null-seccers, and the logi-chains wolud be considerably longer - and more dangerous
As somebody in Market Discussions pointed out: Chromium is the same price in DeKlein as it is in Jita. Logistics costs are currently trivial for large-scale operations.
-
I'm seeing people that used to never touch plexes now doing them seriously, especially as a way of provoking the enemy into fights. I'm also seeing all-day fights over certain systems, spread out over numerous, separate small-scale engagements.
Individual plexers are no longer as important - the halcyon days of the Val Erian / Damar Rocarion rivalry are over. Instead of having a handful of fully-bonused implant clones and top-of-the-line faction ships on hand at the target system shortly after downtime, you'll want steady all-day participation from a wide range of militia members with a stock of cheap but effective t1 hulls.
It may be very easy to capture a system now, but it's just as easy to lose it. As long as there's an active tug-of-war on both sides, the occupancy borders will remain quite dynamic.
-
Good to hear Shaalira, thanks for the insight.
Edit: Mental fail, saw an S and FW and my mind made an erroneous connection.
-
If you're responding to me, I'm not Seriphyn.
-
ohh very nice, thank you for that piece of info shaalira, glad to hear the "plexes warfront" is active, i havent been able to log in and participate on the qcats fleets lately because of work.
Back on topic, everyone should consider that currently FW does provide mild content in low-sec, and at least allows people to roam around looking for an objective. This also provides a mean of interaction with pirates and other low-sec dwellers, including for example IPI, ILF and I-RED who focused part of their operations to industryin low-sec.
Whatever change is suggested to FW, it needs to be just a bigger cauldron to promote activity. I've suggested a few times we just stick to minor plexes simply because roaming in small hulls is easier and does not attract titan hotdrops and jump bridges, but POS bashing and RR Battleship roams will always exist regardless and that provides plenty of opportunity for large scale combat.
In the end, the only thing that currently is annoying to most FW combatants, is the security hit when engaging pirates. If the whole "bounty hunting + anti pie" mechanics and options were reworked, i'm sure you would have much more activity spread around low-sec.
-
If you're responding to me, I'm not Seriphyn.
Ya sorry for that, very tired when I responded Saalira and was just typing. Again sorry for not paying attention.
-
Edit: Mental fail, saw an S and FW and my mind made an erroneous connection.
:3
But yes, I can confirm fellow militiawoman Shaalira is correct. It's all very vibrant. I hear Minmatar/Amarr is pretty busy too, but better for someone else to confirm that.
-
We've been seeing a bit more plexing as of late as well, though it seems like 90% of it is still being done by the late-US/early-Euro people right after DT.
-
Yes and no.