Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => Moderation Discussion => Topic started by: Jade Constantine on 13 Jun 2011, 10:12
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Moderator Comment Argumentative and overly critical. This thread has run its course and then some.
From the SF vs Moira thread where Julianus and I were in discussion which although robust had avoided insults and rules infractions.
I'd suggest a comparison to the lengthy Scagga vs Kaleigh discussion on Infilitration as RP to compare style of interaction.
Where I think it was a mistake to close that thread was that I genuinely felt Julianus and I were getting closer to understanding each other a bit and getting to the source of some mutual respect for one another's RP motivations.
We'd also managed to avoid swearing and shouting and calling each other assholes :)
Food for thought anyway.
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I closed it because of the constant "urdoinitrong". Perhaps I should have stated that more clearly in the post, but for the moment the thread needs a cooling-off period at a minimum.
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I closed it because of the constant "urdoinitrong". Perhaps I should have stated that more clearly in the post, but for the moment the thread needs a cooling-off period at a minimum.
Okay thats fair enough. Would appreciate it if you could open it again post cooling-off time because I'd like to conclude the discussion with Julianus if possible.
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I didn't get the impression that there was a discussion going on. To me, it looked like a series of reasonable responses being answered by someone playing 'gotcha' and making snide remarks. If you think the discussion was going somewhere productive, you could certainly continue it via PM.
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I didn't get the impression that there was a discussion going on. To me, it looked like a series of reasonable responses being answered by someone playing 'gotcha' and making snide remarks. If you think the discussion was going somewhere productive, you could certainly continue it via PM.
Well I was trying to reasonable - I hope you didn't feel I was being snide?
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Well I was trying to reasonable - I hope you didn't feel I was being snide?
No. I felt you were being quite reasonable and thoughtful and respectful in your posts. I did not get the impression that the respect was being reciprocated.
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Well I was trying to reasonable - I hope you didn't feel I was being snide?
No. I felt you were being quite reasonable and thoughtful and respectful in your posts. I did not get the impression that the respect was being reciprocated.
Ah thank you for that. I'm glad you noticed the effort I was making.
I was being quite understanding though. I can sympathize a bit with Julianus because it is difficult to lose a war in eve particularly when one feels targetted ooc with being excluded from his community / player group etc. And I really did want to make absolutely clear that was never being suggested or sought from our side.
It was just a good fun IC war really and the best thing to do when these things are coming to a close is to do whats neccessary IC to conclude and close the chapter and get on to something else.
I felt it was an important discussion because Julianus was expressing some of the prejudice against SF that is held in certain parts of the community still and talking these things out and meeting on neutral ground between players ooc can help I think.
In particular the value of PF vs non PF (player created) ideology and RP background is something that could certainly do with discussion.
But as I said, I was making allowances for Julianus being a bit emotional at the way the war is ending particularly as he felt (wrongly) that we'd be calling for him to leave his corp as a surrender term.
That really isn't the case.
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I'll take that under advisement, but I should note that we got a pretty strong community response to the direction that thread went today.
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It's probably also worth stating:
The standard isn't 'Does this break the rules and does someone else in the thread have a problem with it?' - It's just 'Does this break the rules?' which the posts in question clearly did.
The issue isn't just the immediate potential for a thread to devolve (though that's a consideration.) It is also about maintaining, to the degree it is possible, an even application of the moderation standards across the board.
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I'll take that under advisement, but I should note that we got a pretty strong community response to the direction that thread went today.
Well of course. It's what folks call a Jade-thread so they're prolly gonna report it just because of that... and I'm not saying that to be a dick to Jade at all. I think he was being pretty damn reasonable in that thread.
This place is sometimes a little bit trigger-happy in its moderation for my tastes, but I'll grant that it seems to work well for the community in the end.
All that said, I think both Jade and Julianus went pretty far in expressing their views and disagreement, but they didn't get to the part where they could build any kind of solution out of it. I'm not sure if that was the direction it would've gone in, but now we'll never know since the thread had the rug pulled from under it.
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Having seen the reports, I don't think people were reacting to Jade's posts in that thread. But a thread whose purpose is to allow people to keep everyone up to speed on what's happening should never turn into discussing whether or not someone else's RP is valid. In fact, no Backstage thread should go down that road. When it does, even if the thread has otherwise useful content, we have to take some sort of action. In this case, short of completely eviscerating it, I didn't know what else I could do.
But community standards play a role: if people are getting agitated by a post, or a set of posts, then we take a closer look. In the past (not this thread), I've read a post, saw nothing wrong with it, then received a slew of reports that pointed out a context or meaning that had gone completely over my head at first reading.
So, those of you who felt the thread should have stayed open, help me understand: why do you feel like the discussion stayed within the rules here? Keep in mind that, as previously noted (in the context of this same thread, even), Backstage is not and never has been intended as the sole venue for arbitration within the RP community.
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It's probably also worth stating:
The standard isn't 'Does this break the rules and does someone else in the thread have a problem with it?' - It's just 'Does this break the rules?' which the posts in question clearly did.
The issue isn't just the immediate potential for a thread to devolve (though that's a consideration.) It is also about maintaining, to the degree it is possible, an even application of the moderation standards across the board.
Can you help me to understand where you feel my posts (specifically) in that thread went wrong please Silvernight?
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All that said, I think both Jade and Julianus went pretty far in expressing their views and disagreement, but they didn't get to the part where they could build any kind of solution out of it. I'm not sure if that was the direction it would've gone in, but now we'll never know since the thread had the rug pulled from under it.
So, those of you who felt the thread should have stayed open, help me understand: why do you feel like the discussion stayed within the rules here? Keep in mind that, as previously noted (in the context of this same thread, even), Backstage is not and never has been intended as the sole venue for arbitration within the RP community.
I haven't studied the rules here extensively (call me an ignorant anarchist), but my point wasn't to say that you've done a bad job in enforcing this place's rules at all. I was just commenting how my sometimes laissez-faire attitude towards moderation in general is at odds with how this place is run.
Again, it does work for this place and I'm not particularly bothered because it really doesn't limit my output all that often, but my preference is somewhat different (ie. I don't mind being rude to me). And why? Well, I've bolded a part of what I wrote earlier in the beginning of this post. I think accomplishing that isn't possibly at all when things get heated and I do value the possibility of it, but as you say: this board isn't for arbitration. So, yeah.
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So, those of you who felt the thread should have stayed open, help me understand: why do you feel like the discussion stayed within the rules here? Keep in mind that, as previously noted (in the context of this same thread, even), Backstage is not and never has been intended as the sole venue for arbitration within the RP community.
The main point I'd make is I feel *my* posts remained within the rules and spirit of discussion here and I think its a slightly regressive precedent to allow other people posting badly to ruin a discussion for all parties - I think the focus should be on encouraging everyone to post constructively in general and not allow one side of the argument to simply derail into a lock by behaving poorly.
Also of course, echoing Gogo's words - I do feel we lost the opportunity to get a decent resolution in the thread through discussion and debate - simply having it locked now will likely reset certain attitudes and prejudices that will remain below the surface rather than being exposed for critical analysis and progressive assessment.
I feel I deserved the right to defend that particular wardec and campaign as an IC development from IC consequences against the suggestion it was ever anything else.
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It's probably also worth stating:
The standard isn't 'Does this break the rules and does someone else in the thread have a problem with it?' - It's just 'Does this break the rules?' which the posts in question clearly did.
The issue isn't just the immediate potential for a thread to devolve (though that's a consideration.) It is also about maintaining, to the degree it is possible, an even application of the moderation standards across the board.
Can you help me to understand where you feel my posts (specifically) in that thread went wrong please Silvernight?
Generally it was Soter that was breaking the rules. In the future, though, the moderation staff prefers that instances of someone going 'urdoinitrong' RP-wise be reported, rather than responded to - and this was a fairly clear example of that on his part.
Edit:
I feel I deserved the right to defend that particular wardec and campaign as an IC development from IC consequences against the suggestion it was ever anything else.
The problem is that Soter saying that it wasn't is actually against the rules (unless the person whose RP it is - you - had said it wasn't.) Just as with anything someone says about you that you feel to be untrue, I understand that you want an opportunity to defend yourself, but the way this board works will generally mean that instead that person's accusation is essentially just going to be moderated most times - often along with responses to it.
That's because one of the basic ideas here is that it isn't up to one person to decide what another person's RP is.
If you want to explain to Soter why you feel he's incorrect, you can do that more privately, or in a different public venue. If you want to assure those who use this board that the war was indeed RP, I think people will already have formed opinions about that one way or another, though you can certainly start topic more generally addressing the idea of wars as RP - though I think we may already have one or two kicking around.
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Okay Silvernight I take those points certainly ... I put my hands up and admit my first instinct is to discuss rather than call for arbitration and that can be a bit problematic when the person I'm talking too is breaking the rules by the very nature of the question.
How about I post a new thread called something like "Free Captains in Placid" post a brief account of the war and links to the important IC posts - and have the thread for more general discussion of the ideology of the Fraction and how we can move forward in a more progressive way highlighting opportunities for RP corps and alliances to interact and get involved?
I'll promise to report rather than respond to future examples of the "your doing it wrong" responses okay?
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I'm not Silver (or a moderator even, for that matter) but I say go for it.
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I would encourage you to start a new topic if you'd like, yes. I would urge all parties to make sure they stay within the guidelines, and to review those guidelines before posting if need be.
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I would encourage you to start a new topic if you'd like, yes. I would urge all parties to make sure they stay within the guidelines, and to review those guidelines before posting if need be.
Okay done .... I might have failed on the "brief" score though :)
Fingers crossed we can have some good discussion now.
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I think you might have DOSed the database with that epic screed. ;)
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I think you might have DOSed the database with that epic screed. ;)
this is what happens when you get paid by the word in your day job you know :)
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I think you might have DOSed the database with that epic screed. ;)
this is what happens when you get paid by the word in your day job you know :)
This piqued my curiousity. Does it tend to be the case that your clients request a preset number of words per unit of work, or do they ask for a piece (qualitative length description) and you assign the number after writing?
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Currently its about particular sizes of intranet articles - is unusual for a contract though, I'm mostly finishing work that previous unsuccessful development efforts failed to appropriately document. We've agreed a price per 20,000 words of proof-read and sanity checked intranet at the moment.