Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Character Development => Topic started by: Lithium Flower on 13 Jun 2013, 23:31
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I have no particular plans about her and just let her follow the stream. However, it is quite obviously, that this stream leads character to the situation without bright future. Each day she puts more and more nails to her coffin. I have been asked several times, about what she will do. My answer is: I don't know. But I would like to know, what you would like her to do after the situation in the State is resolved not in her favor.
I have listed most possible outcomes of this situation. Of course, you can suggest something new, if you have any ideas, and I may find them... interesting and feasible. Just keep in mind, that she will remain loyal to the State until the end. Let me explain options that I have in mind in more details:
1. Kill her completely. I think it is the most probable and logical solution for her dilemma. Of course, we know, that death solves nothing, but she is Caldari and stuff. Well, on a bright note, if she will die completely, I can finally publish all fiction about her character, so we could cry about her together :cry:
2. She can still commit suicide and let her 'children' (as next clones according to her philosophy) to continue her duty to the State. Thus, on one hand, she 'cleans' her honor, and on other, does not 'betray' the State by leaving her service in hard time. Well, there is a bit of complication, because her 'children' will be verrry suicidal, like very very.
3. A little handwavium on extension of option 1. I had it in my mind earlier to try to do this stuff with her: she dies somehow, but her initial clone is activated (without memories of all her capsuleer deeds). She will be same adrenaline freak with same personality, same PTSD and philosophy, but will be completely clueless about what happened with her earlier and will be trying to find out about her capsuleer life. It can be either same character, or she can be 'resurrected' as fresh clone with her original - birth name.
4. I have been suggested a failed suicide attempt with tea, either wrongly made or because her resistance because of genes and stuff. Either way, if she survives suicide attempt with tea, she will become believer and furious wayist adept, which might be interesting thing to play. (also it will mean, that her actions were 'approved' by the Maker, and it will come to some... well... dangerous and explosive situations)
5. There are possible solutions that wouldn't require her to commit suicide in one way or another. It will depends on how she will react, what she will and won't do, and what will happen around her. She might just continue her service, shrugging off everything (which I believe should be lest possible and feasible scenario). Spend a week or so in tears. Became completely broken, crazy (more crazy than now, if it is possible at all :lol:), or even drunkard or drug addict?..
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I selected option 1, solely based on what I know of the character from IGS and in game. I congratulate you for managing to have Kim stick to her guns through all of this...I would have a hard time playing that kind of single-mindedness to a cause in face of evidence.
The position Kim is in is a difficult one and all four options are feasible. I'm typically loathe to kill of a character permanently, but it would be a glorious death and fitting for her story.
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Normally I don't vote on these threads about characters, because I don't usually know what to say. In regards to DK, I sort of do.
I chose option 5. As much as option 1 might be more her style as a hardcore Caldari provist, and fitting for the character, it doesn't sit well with me. All that time spent coming up with her story, RPing her, and not to mention the training up of skills, will all just go down the drain if you start over fresh with a new character. Not to mention it's just the pits going from a character that can do a lot in game to one just barely starting again.
Yes, I know, having the character continue onward after the hard downfall that's going to happen soon isn't going to be an easy one. She will be sad, down, depressed... and I know none of that's fun to RP, especially on long periods of time. However, there's always a way through it. Perhaps she can meet some new people she wouldn't normally have spoken to and befriend them(for better or worse influence wise). Or fall deep into something like drug abuse. Or like mentioned in option 4 (which is also a decent option), she could find something to believe in, be it wayist or even the Amarr faith.
Anyhow, that's my thought on this.
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Take the tea. Survive. Join us to put boots to Feddy faces.
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If actual Nazis can eat crow and carry on after the war, so can Kimmy. I believe in you, kirjuun.
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I don't really know. Though options 1 (might not be fun for the player and time invested), option 3, and option 5 are nice to me. Especially option 3 but maybe cause i'm just in my cyberpunk period.
Mostly because I don't like option 2, which is less interesting in my opinion, and I don't like option 4 too, it sounds completely stretched and artificial OOCly to me.
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Hm, tricky.
I really enjoy Diana, but I think I might have to go for option 1. Though, there is really no telling what will happen next with Heth (I am still suspecting some kind of Guristas stunt), but what ever happens to him, I think Diana perhaps should follow suit.
EDIT: After re-reading the options, I think number 3 is the best sci-fi. Because it touches some questions regarding existentialism, such as responsibility and blame. At least it will continue to make Diana an interesting and believable character, I wonder if she can be that under option 5.
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If actual Nazis can eat crow and carry on after the war, so can Kimmy. I believe in you, kirjuun.
This. Struggling to deal with the fallout and collapse of your worldview is interesting RP in itself, no need to just cut it short with suicide, Kim seems like a stronger character then that. She's just going to need to come to terms with the fact that the world isn't as simple a place as she was taught.
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She could get faith, go to the dark side, and join Amarr. :P
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Diana Kim is going to fall into alcohol and drugs, and end up smoking weed in a thukker caravan :eek:
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Take the tea. Survive. Join us to put boots to Feddy faces.
This man is wise.
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Take the tea. Survive. Join us to put boots to Feddy faces.
This man is wise.
.
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Take the tea. Survive. Join us to put boots to Feddy faces.
This man is wise.
Not empty quoting. Tea option could make her less crazy and more balanced honerebu State Hero. She shouldn't just die. At all. Just no..
YOU HEAR ME?! DON'T YOU DARE KILL HER D : <
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Personally I like 3 and 5 the most, with 4 coming in after that.
#3 would allow you to 'reboot' the character in a sense - people would know about her past and could tell her about it, but you'd also be free to try developing her in an entirely different direction, almost from scratch. Amnesia is an over-used trope, sure, but in EVE's setting it's a more reasonable one to borrow from because of the cloning technology.
#5 has tremendous opportunities for good character development and progression. Heth's downfall will of course have huge effects on her - but the struggle to climb back up out of the dark is in and of itself a good and worthwhile journey for RP. There are a number of people here who have had characters go through traumatic experiences, and then come out stronger - and changed - from the recovery. Ask them for help and suggestions if you go this route.
#4 would be... interesting. I dunno if the cluster can handle a Diana who's got divine justification for all her actions, but at least it would easily let you keep pew pewing in FW. :P
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I like option 5, personally. It gives you the opportunity to really develop some depth with her - lots of people RP characters with "terrible bad things" in their past, but you'd be actually RPing through some of the worst moments in Diana's life. That's an incredible opportunity.
Besides, Shin's just quit the Caldari side and gone back to the Federation. Diana wants to kill Shin, doesn't she? :D
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Throwing my weight behind #5 as well, followed by 3 or 4 (I don't really prefer one or the other).
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OMG dont you dare touch a hair on Diana's head.
I choose option 5, become a rabble-rousing outsider, rallying the massive numbers of Caldari poor and disenfrancised to remember the glories of the Heth regime, when the Federation was cowed, Caldari Prime was theirs, and a true meritocracy existed.
Its far, far, far more fun and easy to attack the status quo than defend it. Become the voice for the true Caldari people!
"Fellow Caldari! You know me, you know my voice. You know our glorious history, and you know the struggles under which we now endure (( there are always struggles to be endured))!
I come to you to remind you of who we are, of where we have been, and of where we shall go! If you listen to GalNet, you can hear the voices of those who undermined our great State, those who would steer us from our noble traditions, those who betrayed the very sacrifices our ancestors made!
These voices tell you that the late, great Heth was a monster, was a betrayer of our Caldari ways! These so called voices of the Caldari people? They wear the cloak of Gallentism, the false and insipid ideology our ancestors fought so hard to free themselves from, and they call it "Liberialism", a very ideology born not of Caldari Prime but instead the decadent boutiques and salons of Luminaire!
Look at these voices! Sexual deviants with their Gallente lovers and Matari friends! Those who seek to pollute our ways and our lifestyle, to rob us of what makes us Caldari! Rob us of our heritage!
They tell us that they restored the State! Yet those of us, those true Caldari who work and build and strive every day in its service, we all know that Heth brought us a true Meritocracy! Under Heth, our sons and daughters blessed to be born with merit, the true future of the Caldari people, could take their rightful place as leaders of our great State! Now? A cartel of capsuleers and "liberal" cronies have conspired to rob us of our hard won glory!
They ask you to despise and sneer at Heth, for he had the courage to stand against these false voices and alien ways! He gave us our home! He gave us our true meritocracy! He gave us our heritage! He worked for us, those true and real Caldari, not those in power who have turned from true meritocracy to perserve their ill-gotten positions, not for these "capsuleers" with their outsider friends and un-Caldari ways, but for US, the true sons and daughters of the State!
Rise with me brothers and sisters! Hold true to our ways, for Heth taught us that the dreams our ancestors fought for can live again!"
OMG, dont give up on Diana Kim. Its soooooooooooooooooooo much more fun to be on the outside throwing stones than on the inside trying to keep the walls from caving in.
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Gottii why are you a better Provist than Kim...
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oooh! :D
So. My thoughts.
I do rather like option 4. The tea is a classic Caldari symbol, and it's a way to display that Caldari dedication and take it whereever you like -- retaining the character, but giving you freedom to expand from there. For instance, she could feel justification -- or she could see it as a chance to redeem herself. "I took the tea as punishment. I have survived my punishment. I must go on, and do good." What 'good' is, well, that's an interesting question.
Option 5 -could- take a couple of forms. If Heth or a Provist core survives the Haatomo station, she could go renegade to some degree...? Either following the remaining Provists into exile...?
Alternatively, there is always the Nation. ;)
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If you do go with the tea option, I volunteer to be the one who prepares/delivers it for her. 8)
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We haven't had a prominent PC Guristas figurehead for a while now. Just sayin'. :yar:
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We haven't had a prominent PC Guristas figurehead for a while now. Just sayin'. :yar:
She could spike her hair and get an eyepatch!
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We haven't had a prominent PC Guristas figurehead for a while now. Just sayin'. :yar:
She could spike her hair and get an eyepatch!
Makes all kinds of sense to me.
I'm for option 5 if only because 4 seems unlikely for an Achura.
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#5. I agree with Gotti, one of Kim's strong points is her conviction, and I think she might not dare be so weak as to let the State, Heth and what he stood for down by taking the easy way out, a cowardly suicide without honour, and risk the Gallente conquering the State.
I also think that option #4 might only apply if Kim was forced into the Tea Maker Ceremony? Does someone know this?
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Suicide is a cop-out, unless it's a proper honor suicide; but then, taking the tea when Heth kicks the bucket is much like claiming to be personally responsible for his safety, or the ideas of Provism itself. Live, damn you! Live!
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Take the tea. Survive. Join us to put boots to Feddy faces.
Probably makes the most sense, especially if Heth's served his tea. Follow him down the path, so to speak, but survive it. This would make her a very convoluted character, in that she believes herself to be redeemed and speaking righteously about purging the Gallente, but at the same time makes cooperation with her fellow Caldari difficult due to their "treasonous actions" in removing Heth.
Such a situation would convert her from a very direct "kill all the frogs!" character to one with more depth. To outright suicide her and biomass Kim would be to take the easy way out, characters are always more fun once they've been shaken to the core once or twice.
Hell, Sak went from a naive guardian of mining ops to a pirate leader after she got left to rot by a bunch of carebears she thought were her friends... adversity makes good characters.
Just... don't pull the amnesia card. That trope is way too overused in capsuleer circles.
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Take the tea. Survive. Join us to put boots to Feddy faces.
Probably makes the most sense, especially if Heth's served his tea. Follow him down the path, so to speak, but survive it.
Well, Kim might come to interesting conclusions if The Winds/Maker seemingly approved of her loyalty to Heth, but not of Heth himself. Actually, just Kim trying to figure out what the heck that means could be interesting RP.
Edit: I still believe the Tea Maker ceremony should be forced upon Kim, if this is the option taken. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
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Take the tea. Survive. Join us to put boots to Feddy faces.
Probably makes the most sense, especially if Heth's served his tea. Follow him down the path, so to speak, but survive it.
Well, Kim might come to interesting conclusions if The Winds/Maker seemingly approved of her loyalty to Heth, but not of Heth himself. Actually, just Kim trying to figure out what the heck that means could be interesting RP.
Edit: I still believe the Tea Maker ceremony should be forced upon Kim, if this is the option taken. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
To be clear when I say option 4 seems unlikely for an Achura I mean no resistance to full strength kresh tea.
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Sani Sabik can kill as many Gallente as they want! :twisted:
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I'd favor not suiciding her. It would be entirely understandable if she did kill herself, and an appropriate ending to her personal tragedy, but that sort of ends the story.
Have you considered letting her start down the road to recovery from her trauma? If there's anything rarer than a fascist character, it's an ex-fascist; few people are willing to play a fascist in the first place, and there's something toxic about the idea of ever having been one (possibly related to Nazi war criminals getting tracked down in Wisconsin or New Jersey decades after WWII) that makes most reluctant to consider fascism as a viable character background.
It's a bit like saying, "Why, yes, I used to be evil incarnate. I got better, though."
... only more human, which is awesome, actually.
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I think Diana has brought an important perspective to EvE RP, her posts on IGS nearly always make me smile.
I understand that being “true” to her character may make suicide the most likely choice, but it isn't’ the only choice.
Often times “true believers” follow their path long after their inspiration / leader is gone. I hope she through you finds a way.
I and perhaps James would miss her just a little :s.
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imho 4 or 5.
It would be sad if you just kill her off, she is a interesting and amusing character.
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Option 5.
Plus what Gotti said on page 2.
Plus terrorism.
Or, if you don't pvp (I don't know you, so no idea), then vicarious terrorism via hiring mers to attack corps for DK's IC reasons (the mercs don't have to RP, they just have to kill stuff for the cause).
EDIT: Having now seen her on IGS, you better not kill her! :evil:
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I see what you did there :)
Im flattered that you would prefer to see her alive!
I will try to answer to everyone at once, but if you will feel I didn't answer to your point, feel free to poke me! (Just make sure you won't use sharp objects for poking and won't poke me through, unlike my characters I have only one clone! thanks~~)
First, about killing her completely with all her clones. My thoughts about it has shifted that it won't be most possible solution, because she considers her clones as assets of the State, and will destroy them only if certain triggers will happen, mostly to prevent them from doing something, she won't want them to do. If she will blame herself, she will kill only herself without clones.
I see that you prefer point 5 (i.e. without suicide), it is not over yet, and she will act according to her beliefs and actions of peoples (and, maybe mostly, dev actors) around her. Although when her decisions will be random, I'll make sure, they will be more in the spirit of preventing her from dying.
About option 3(loss of memory for the whole capsuleer period), I see there very different opinions. This was my idea to make some fun with her way before these events began to happen. I can lay it aside for a while, and, maybe, I will use it to revive her later after hitting option 1. Will she hold her current name, or will appear with her original name will depend on the physical condition of the character and account.
Now, taking the tea. Indeed, she will prefer other means of dealing with herself, so for this option she would need someone to... akhem... 'help'. As for it being Korsavius, it will be a bit difficult, since he is not Caldari. But feasible. To 'feed' her with tea would be best when something will happen, that she cannot accept as is. For example, it could have been quite easy to feed her some tea right after she knew about Heth actually killed Yanala and tried to destroy whole Caldari Prime. Some time later, when she had some time to meditate on this (and lately she is just locked in her quarters without flying much, just thinking about things and trying to find explanations) and convince herself, it will be practically impossible. Although, she still doesn't have explanations for everything, and you could possible make her stumble, and if pull right ropes, make her to take the tea. Just remember, that she thinks like Caldari and using normal moral norms on her won't work. Oh, and also, she is veerrrry aggressive, so if you push her too hard, she will switch to attacking you instead :lol:
Arnulf, she is not Achura completely, so if someone will make a tea with a concentration enough to kill any Achura but pretty safe to other Caldari, just to test, if she really has Cadalri blood, or just deranged Achuran girl, she will survive it without problem.
Now back, to the most interesting and tricky part: letting her live without suicide. First, I have said earlier, that she will remain loyal to the State in any case. To actually change it, make her (using Gottii's words) to throw rocks from outside, will be very difficult, almost impossible. At first, the war should stop (so she can't kill gallente), leadership changed, all her ideas devalued. But even in this case, she would prefer to simply kill herself, because "I won't be useful for the State anymore"-thing.
She would really prefer to not became "dissident scum" that she was fighting against, she despise greatly (and will continue to despise) those, who were opposing Heth, even if her own opinion of Heth will change radically. Going dissident is still feasible, but with very slim chance. It will be long and hard process, starting with her killing other enemies like sansha and pirating occasionally on "gallentes". But really, should the war stop, she will die.
So, well, the idea is, she will remain loyal to the State to the end, and if she will be throwing stones, it will be from the inside. At the same time she will try to maintain her convictions, and if her convictions will come to conflict to her loyalties, she must die, as proper Caldari. Well, there are two possibilities, that will change her convictions, but only in a small part: regarding Heth.
First: she will remain loyal to Heth even after his death and will idolize him, following line as Gottii said, just from inside the State. Probably at first she will be in a deep suicide-able condition, because she 'lost Heth' and 'can't live without him'. Probably she will suicide her current clone, probably not. But it is not fatal, since won't affect her other clones. But later, it will only reinforce her convictions, she will revere Heth as a hero and will be killing gallentes in his name, still keeping her in service of the State and following orders.
Second: if her attitude towards Heth will be reversed. This will depend mostly on following Heth's actions, and if his 'misdeeds' will overweight his 'merits' (in the sense of what he did to form her character and convictions), and possible for this she will have to review interpretation of his already completed actions, to drop them from 'merits' bowl to 'misdeeds'. In this case she at first will be in a very suicidal condition and it will be hard to prevent her from doing this, since she will believe she did a horrible mistake, that should be paid for with her blood. Eventually, she will enter state, suggested by Aria: "Why, yes, I used to be evil incarnate. I got better, though." She will continue to hate gallente (because it was way before Heth), she will remain in her service to the State, and will be killing gallente only because of pure hatred and duty. She will be ashamed of her past and loyalty to Heth.
Well, I think, that's all. Lets see how events will develop from here. And, Havohej, I like to pvp :P
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PS Diana doesn't want to 'kill Shin', some time later she won't want to kill either Kat or Arac as well, and will act on them with aggressive defense. She prefers to not have actual personal enemies according to her beliefs.
PPS Gottii, you are a bit freaky with this "you know my voice" thing, mmkay? :eek: She is a soldier, not a showman.
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And, Havohej, I like to pvp
In that case, given all you've said, I still say terrorism is a great path. She doesn't have to see herself as dissident scum or disloyal to the State to be a terrorist, after all. Havo certainly sees himself (when he's thinking about it, which is seldom) as one of very, very few Minmatar loyal to the Minmatar People/Culture/Etc., while everyone else is either:
A race traitor
A slaver
A slaver supporter/sympathizer
A Federalist (i.e.: promoting outside influences that are destroying Minmatar culture)
Anyone else who's not actively engaged in helping achieve liberation of the slaves in the Empire (mostly Caldari, Gallente, Amarrians and Minmater who aren't in FW or terrorizing people outside of Minnie space - so... lots of people).
And since everyone falls into one of those categories... well. Everyone's a fair and justifiable target. :D He's psychotic, I know, but what the hell... psychotic is fun.
I know you probably won't do it... but it's soooo much fun to be THE bad guy in a faction full of middle-of-the-road types and good guys. I think at one time there were no other really evil actors in the Minmatar faction, besides Du'uma Fiisi. Is it still that way now, I wonder... has there been a vacuum of evil in my absence?
Anyway, not trying to derail your thread - just got off work, tired, rambling. Love your character so far!
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Like I said, PYRE needs more people with D.K. in their initials. It might be the best choice if you want to keep Diana loyal to the State and/or hostile against federals. ;)
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To be honest, if I understood the tea ceremony correctly and it's japanese/chinese equivalent, you take it when you've dishonored yourself by being unable to fulfill your duty. So, Diana doesn't actually have the right to take it: she has not failed. Her duty is not to keep Heth alive, she didn't participate in the lockdown, nor is responsible for his choices. Then, they also commit suicide for losing their boss/daimyo, but Diana's boss is her corp leader, not Heth, so this wouldn't be an option/path either.
So, we're left with the fifth option: deal with it! I like the idea of Diana becoming the voice of the provist in a world that turns their back on them.
But, if we push the japanese equivalent a bit far, she can also become a ronin of some kind, wandering without lord as she tries to find purpose in life by killing gallente non-stop.
Or maybe find a new sense in life: Diana is loyal to the State, not only the man in its head, so if the man changes and the structure remains, the State remains and so does Diana's loyalties.
Maybe she'll switch to the new paradigm as a true loyal obsessed would do, focusing on whatever the message of the State is in whatever time, because that's what "being loyal to the State is, like it or not, always back the message".
Or she could "fall from grace", and start to self-destroy in a life that's losing its sense and its meaning, it's always a very interesting story to RP and, well done, one of the best to watch.
And, certainly, going awol and turning back on all that "betrayed their beloved leader and brought down the true Caldari dream" can also be a good option, joining Guristas, Amarr, or even Gallente (not because of respect to them, but to press the Caldari so far that they see how important the old ways were; IIRC one of the caldari players, (Vikarion?) did so recently out of the same reason to oppose Heth, and I found it an interesting twist and turn).
Etc. Paths are infinite, of course, so do what's right, and don't kill Kim! :evil: :evil: :evil:
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I'm not the only one who sees the parallels!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3218907#post3218907
8)
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Option Four.
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Also, Arac would very happily offer her some tea :D
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I think we should come to the brink of suicide then realize all she really wants is a Minmatar in her life. The run off with Halete to start their new life together. :)
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Don't you think that Halete misses a very important body part for this kind of deal? :lol:
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Option six: double down on the obsession, even if Heth kicks the bucket. Attempt to grow Heth clones for personal, sexual purposes. Decorate own quarters with Templis Dragonaur memorabilia. Practice active denial of Heth's mistakes, and have a conspiracy theory ready if anyone challenges your whitewashed history.
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Option six: double down on the obsession, even if Heth kicks the bucket. Attempt to grow Heth clones for personal, sexual purposes. Decorate own quarters with Templis Dragonaur memorabilia. Practice active denial of Heth's mistakes, and have a conspiracy theory ready if anyone challenges your whitewashed history.
Begin wearing a Heth-clone skinsuit. Kidnap political enemies and lock them in your basement. Begin calling yourself Diana Heth.
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Option six: double down on the obsession, even if Heth kicks the bucket. Attempt to grow Heth clones for personal, sexual purposes. Decorate own quarters with Templis Dragonaur memorabilia. Practice active denial of Heth's mistakes, and have a conspiracy theory ready if anyone challenges your whitewashed history.
Begin wearing a Heth-clone skinsuit. Kidnap political enemies and lock them in your basement. Begin calling yourself Diana Heth.
Why do I like these ideas...what the hell is wrong with me. :eek:
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As a conclusion:
Regarding current events she won't try to kill herself and avoid options, that will force her going this way.
However, she will bump into other characters to try them to do it for her. Certain events have changed her attitude towards Heth (from maniacal to more rational) and towards orbital bombardments, but her further development is still heavy depends on what Heth will or won't do. She will be having lots of suicidal thoughts, unwilling to both live and die, until she will find a way to redeem herself.
I think it can be closed now.
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/me prepares oblivion cocktail.
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A bit late to the party (I don't usually read this forum, but came to look for a specific bit of information), but story-wise, there is a few ways to apply the monomyth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth), even. Though Diana going ronin and starting to challenge anyone and everyone who she perceives as an enemy sounds worth exploring. (If the plan would be to really stir things, first join a player corporation and then start doing this - but probably better pick a corp that understands what is happening, additional drama just for the sake of drama is bad in my opinion.)
Kind of happy about no suicide, especially no tea (OCD sense twitching - since Achura are not from Caldari Prime, it would have been somewhat unlikely for them to have the genes to survive the tea, though of course, marriage to someone from Caldari Prime would have been very easy to work into Diana's background ancestry). Guristas most likely make no sense, but if there's enough support, something like our own plan in the opposite scenario (i.e. total Provist control of the State) could work - a collection of a small group of individuals worked into varying degrees omnicidal mania, with trappings taken from the Caldari history. (Kind of shame, I wouldn't have minded to see how Saana would pull off being in a permanent state of tranquil fury.)
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Diana is half Archura and half Caldari. I forget which strain of Caldari she is though.
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Hmmm... an interesting question.
Personally, though 2 of my characters have issues with Diana, i'd prefer option 5.
These are testing times for anyone, but Diana could come out of this without taking the tea and retain some semblance of honour.
Even a failed tea-suicide would work, though not necessarily becomming a fanatical wayist afterwards, she could take her survival as simply another chance to serve the state, or, (more difficult to do in game, especially if heth dies) as a sign that she was right all along.
The latter may be difficult to pull off though, as it would require turning against the state as it stands after the whole hethgate event ends...
not voting on it as i can't decide between the options... still. there's my 2p on the matter
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After our lovely OOC chat about it last night, you know where I stand in my hopes for DK.
You know you wanna... :cube:
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Unfortunately, today she was pushed 'overboard' and was killed... unexpectedly. She didn't prepare to die at all, haven't deactivated her clones (if she planned to die), and neither had up to date softclones (if she planned to live after), so her next clone when woke up was completely confused and clueless, since she left nothing, no messages, no recordings, except those, that were sent by the killer to authorities.
What happened exactly? She was in a very depressed state, and a person, who came to help, was pushing her to thoughts about killing her, and when she finally said she wanted to die... killed her. She didn't resist.
On a bright side, her new (actually - old) clone was confronted in the Summit, almost pushing her to commit real suicide because of losing honor, and she has realized that she totally doesn't want to die. For now, her suicidal thoughts are completely gone, unless someone will push her again, or something bad happens with Mr. Heth :P
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At first I was horrified with how that scene played out. The idea was offered very neutrally, based on her actions and on conversations had with others and the decision for her to actually kill herself was apparently caused by a complete misunderstanding of a metaphorical use of the word 'Rest'.
DK popping up immediately thereafter, having undergone a traditional ritual, was even more horrifying, of course.
I couldn't understand how this had come to pass. There were so many options to turn aside the blade. But now I'm beginning to see some RP upshots from it.
1. DK no longer wishes to commit suicide and will, hopefully, tone down the deathseeking behaviour that's been troubling the Caldari she associates with.
2. Pieter will now be a lot less driven to 'help fix' every wounded bird that he encounters. This has cost him, personally, and he now has to undergo a trial to make things right with the Winds and his Ancestors.
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... Pieter. You're really bad at this.
>.>
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Pieter, does your character have any evidence that she asked for 'rest'?
Witnesses? A signed document?
Caldari honorable suicide involves tea, not publicly stating that you're going to spar with someone and then snapping their neck when no one else is around.
Even from an OOC perspective, your character appears to have gone to a person's house, been invited in, and then murdered her.
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Once again, I would like to publicly offer asylum within the Federation, Pieter. Join us! We have space potatoes! :twisted:
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Pieter, does your character have any evidence that she asked for 'rest'?
Witnesses? A signed document?
Caldari honorable suicide involves tea, not publicly stating that you're going to spar with someone and then snapping their neck when no one else is around.
Even from an OOC perspective, your character appears to have gone to a person's house, been invited in, and then murdered her.
Recorded conversation, luckily.
And it's never been said, Canon, that the Maker's Tea is the ONLY way for an honourable exit. After all, Tovil-Toba used a Carrier for his.
The point was that, clearly, she wasn't going to take her own life but, equally clearly, she was going to keep putting herself in positions whereby she'd try to get someone else to take it.
And quite frankly, both IC and OOC, I tried to do something about it. Well, fuck me for trying, eh? This wasn't godmodded, DK had multiple opportunities to simply say "No, not what I want" both OOC and IC. I feel like I was trapped into it and that certain people are now going to use it against me.
Well, fine. If that's how you all want to play it. Lesson learned and I'm going to be VERY selective in how and who I RP with in future.
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How were you trapped into doing it?
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Because it was not made apparent until it was already well in progress that this was NOT what was wanted, despite lots of opportunities for an 'out'.
A simple "No thank you, kirjuun." could have turned it into fifteen minutes of writing and one awkward cup of tea.
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OOC, I sympathize. That's not a nice position to be in. You'll probably catch flack for this IC but it's not insurmountable.
My character will likely be upset about this though.
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IC flak is easier to deal with, Makkal. :)
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... you're actually getting OOC flak, Pieter? :|
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Even from an OOC standpoint, I think it's pretty obvious that Diana Kim was asking around for these sorts of things IC and OOC. She seemed to be speaking a lot about having characters kill or otherwise seriously harm her own. I myself had been asked OOC (I assumed it was partially in jest) to do the task shortly after the IGS post about leaving her front door open for anybody who wanted to beat up Diana Kim. I declined, but others did not. A string of incidents which resulted in serious bodily harm to Diana Kim IC followed. I don't know for sure how many or with whom, but I think it can be listed as
- Arthas beating the crap out of her and killing her, I think.
- Diana drinking the fatal tea
- Diana getting into a nearly fatal sword fight with Aracturus
- Diana asking Stitcher to kill her
- The Pieter thing we're all talking about
I'm going to have to vouch for Pieter here and say there is no real reason so suggest that either he or his character are the type to randomly murder someone, and there are plenty of reasons to suggest Diana did actually ask for it IC (and OOC too).
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Well one thing is for sure, Piet. You won't be getting any IC flak from Kor about killing her. ;)
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Well, Pieter, for what it's worth, I'd think you did the 'right' thing, here. :)
Nah, I don't have something against DK, especially not OOC.
But the way I look at it, OOCly, whatever you did there was something that got the DK-story going on further instead of stagnating!
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I am not sure to understand what is the issue people are taking ? If Lithium Flower (DK's player) was not okay with the action in the first place, he would never have acknowledged it and we will be stuck with 2 players saying OOC "she died" "no she didn't".
So, it was accepted by both parties right ? What did I miss to see OOC flak around that ?
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Pieter, if you're actually getting OOC flak, that's really poor. I was in OOC for some of the time that it was going on and it was clear to me that you were trying to RP as responsibly as possible and maintaining OOC contact at the same time.
I commented at the time that if Pieter killed Diana with no clone backup, it would be a big thing. I think it's still ICly quite a big thing, but it's good RP stuffs!
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+1 from me to Katrina, Nico and Lyn's comments here.
OOC flak for it from anyone, except maybe Lithium if he was like, Gesakaarin levels of drunk IRL (joking of course, Veiki, :cube:) is pretty unreasonable.
I don't think I was around at the time, but it sounds like you were doing all the right things to make sure that Lithium's wishes were taken into account with the way things were going, so I can't really see anything wrong with what happened or how you handled it.
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Pieter, if you're actually getting OOC flak, that's really poor.
Agreed. Though now I'm not sure if he actually got some or if he was just anticipating it.
I think it's still ICly quite a big thing, but it's good RP stuffs!
Right. I expect Makkal will be livid when she finds out.
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To be honest there was a bit of an undercurrent in OOC the night that it happened and I think I expected it to escalate. Instead people have been pretty good, DK hasn't played the victim and the only consequences for it are going to be In Character.
And they are going to be BIG consequences!
Pieter is going to face a version of the Trials of the Winds - Three Challenges to represent the three major Winds of Wayiist philosophy. I don't know precisely what these trials will be, yet, as they're in the hands of another to define, but they will be difficult, dangerous and have visible, long term, consequences.
If Pieter fails he will have to accept exile and go Guri, which I am prepared to do!
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You should consider joining PAUX if you fail! :3
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You should consider joining PAUX if you fail! :3
aka, "How to Make Samira Squishy in 1 Easy Step"
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From my cold, dead hands. 8)
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I am actually pretty content with what happened. Was unexpected to me both IC and OOC and I liked how Pieter played it. What I didn't like, is going about it a bit vocal in the summit, but in the end, it played good part too ;)
OOC-ly, I hoped for a bit of conversation, where Kim would explain Pieter that she doesn't want to die, since I had ideas why this conversation started in the first place. But I didn't expect desire to 'help' her in this particular way. What I saw there, was a Chekov's gun. On one hand, I didn't want her death, on the other I was itching all over to see, what he prepared for her. After contact with Verin, I decided, that she won't ever ask anyone to kill her. But Pieter came to her with this idea, and after a bit of contemplation, I 'made' her to think about death. Of course, I prevented her from saying directly, that she wants to die. And I prevented her from saying, that she didn't. I decided to simply float along and let Pieter to do what he wants. Critical point was at the moment, when Kim asked him, if he thinks she need to be put to rest. He replied positively, and I felt, that here it is. I just followed, letting him do what was planned, agreeing with everything, as I decided not to interrupt him.
IC-ly, she was depressed. And, IC-ly she met Pieter very happily, thinking about discussion of the situation they got themselves in Skadi's Hall. She wasn't thinking about death at all, before possibility of ending her life was brought back to her.But the life was hard to her, she tired of it. She decided that she should live, however, and don't ask anyone to finish her. The weight of failure (mostly imaginative) was still high on her, and this unfinished duel, where she should have died. She started to think about death again with Pieter, changing her attitude towards it after almost each line, arguing mostly with herself than with Pieter. When she realized that she cant solve the argument fast and lost in her own thoughts, she tried to get 'help' from Pieter (or gamble on it), asking him indirectly if he feels that she should die (in a form of that she deserves rest, since she was speaking before, that she will have rest when she die). She gambled with her life and she lost it. What happened next, and why she didnt stop him? She was afraid of death, and was trying to overcome the fear. It is her greater motivation in almost everything she does: to fight fear and experience adrenaline. She got both. She wouldn't stop Pieter, since she thought she would show weakness. I think it would be the best to describe her condition in this situation regarding death with words, that Pieter himself told her about his desire to kill her, when he came to her: she didn't want to die, but were willing to die. (oh, and well, last her thought before passing out was that she didnt' taste that cake, that Pieter brought to her)
She has watched the recording of her death, and is still clueless why did she want to die (in fact, current clone shares same ideas about death as the one that died plus strong motivation against death because of this event), and thus she believes that something extreme happened in these two days, and that she 'invited' Pieter 'to kill her' because of it. Lets see how fun it could be.
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You should consider joining PAUX if you fail! :3
aka, "How to Make Samira Squishy in 1 Easy Step"
Not the aim! Totally.
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If Pieter fails he will have to accept exile and go Guri, which I am prepared to do!
Inb4 TS-F gains new a member :lol:
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If Pieter fails he will have to accept exile and go Guri, which I am prepared to do!
Inb4 TS-F gains new a member :lol:
Hey we cant help it that were so dam awesome 8)
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There is only Nation!
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I know I wasn't able to do much, but I hope I was able to help some ICly "after the fact'. In the real world, people do not come back after this and do not have the chance to play the Ozzy and Lita Ford song *after the fact* ;)
From an external perspective, both IC and OOC watching the character Diana (as I just gave Arista my brain on this stuff), she was WAY into the danger zone of acute disassociative disorderwith an IC suspicion on PTSD -- to the point where that little "not feeling myself lately" is leading to self mutilation, disruption of normal thought processes, Dark Nights of the Soul (feeling disconnected from a followed religious framework), disturbed sleep patterns, and contempation - and attempt at completion - of the act of suicide.
She hacked of all of her hair (which is a sign of self-mutilation and a visible non-verbal cry for help - this is a military woman who is to carry herself with decorum - not only her mental image but her physical image as well... and she attacked her own head with a pair of scissors), she was drinking heavily at every opportunity in which it did not interfere with Duty (well, because Caldari, and the strongest ritual behavior are the last to collapse in diassociation before fugue or worse) and *static, cough, noises* ;).
When Heth went outlaw she went from an angry, desperate, vicious woman to suddenly friendly and happy and calm (as calm as DK gets) -- a sign that to someone who doesn't know what they're looking at, appears to be "hey, they're going to be okay", "Ah, she finally stopped being nuts" "She must have gotten a clue" - things along those lines.
The truth is, most of the time, that is the exact opposite of what's going on.
The person had reached a focal point in the period of of their disassociation in which they have conciously or very close to surface subconciously made a decision to die -- therefore, they are no longer angry, they no longer have fear, they're no longer worried about their issues... they seem happy, they seem to be returning to normal "ritualistic" behavior like going to work, they are suddenly much more friendly / caring to their friends and associates, etc. The most difficult decision they have been wresting with in their mind in a disassociative state, which is "Why am I even here.. is there evn a POINT to this?" is decided. They are empowered, even if all they have empowered themselves with is the right to die. i don't know the percentages of switching from ideation to planning but you can ding
The statement comes quietly. Rationally. It might feel ike the only rational thought the person has had in weeks not repetitively reality-tested in the person's head. You go from "What's the point of this room? What's the point of this chair? Why have thr Spirits bandoned me?" to " ... I need to just die. :casualfacebrain:". It is hard, very hard, to say no.
As the decision has been made, the stress is gone - now the next step is just managing to make it happen. Usually within a week or two. Diana Kim, again from an outside perspective, was perfectly on schedule to die or make an attempt with a VERY high chance of success.
Diana was AFRAID to die though (As player points out, and it was pretty visible from RP).. She was, in a lot of ways, afraid to be wounded at all (hence she just went for her hair, which doesn't hurt to cut off). The adrenaline of combat is what allows her to handle ombat. She NEEDS it. The more exprienced of a pilot she gets, the less adrenalin that she NEEDs, she gets, the more her body tanks on serotoin levels that dropped through the floor due to mental trauma (in DK's case, I'm 90% sure it is not a gentypical lower production or accelerated uptake level, but accelerated uptake caused by trauma.)
However, she lives in a rather fatalistic society where death administerd by another (even if it is serving them the cup of tea) is an appropriate answer for dishonor - and her personal sense of dishonor likely (and I think player confirms this up there somewhere) was amplified wildly and unfairly by her mental state. A Caldari chooses to take it.
Regardless of what she wanted as a human being, as Caldari, this was the accepted answer. There seems no concept for forgiveness. I'm not even sure if there a concept of mercy. There were people on IGS discussing her like she was a unit of livestock. She was just a hunk of meat being yanked back and forth as a "valuable state commodity" who needed humanity from her ownn people, even in some minute level, so badly that it hurt to watch even OOC. Have some grimdark!! (obv, I hve idea of anything said IC behind closed doors, but something whispered will havefar less effect than something shouted.)
Arista REALLY tried to get to her in time without violating the space, and paradoxically (is that a word?) the "freedom" that Diana needed, basically because the "help" she was getting was basically imprisonment as damaged goods to be used for what she was still capable of and to hell with her issues (outside perception again, I'm just a fluffy Khanid after all). Others had tried to get to her but they were throwing rational arguments at a person not thinking rationally and just making her walls higher and higher against them, and welll DK.. sometimes losing said arguments to the point of wakin naked in a vat.
Thing is, I am "that creepy Amarrian lady" ( ;) hehe ) so when a Caldari psychologist showed up in the Summit and Diana seemed comforted by them and even PUBLICLY asked to set a time with them (GASP CALDARI SCANDAL TO ADMIT WEAKNESS), I assumed the issue under control. It was her last public cry for help I saw :/
This too long for me to even go on abut it anymore save to say DK is a badass RPer to have followed eveything that would have happened pyshiatrically so perfectly and yet sbo so "un-obvious" about it that like RL, if you didn't know what you were looking at, you wouldn't know what you were seeing save "Oh.. there does Diana again" .. yes. There she goes, indeed!!!
*hugs*
Disclaimer: I only play a psych in EVE. I carry no actual degrees in it. I have also stayed in a Motel 6.