Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Aria Jenneth on 29 Apr 2013, 12:10
-
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/modern-finances-report-cloned-soldiers-provide-high-return-on-investment/ (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/modern-finances-report-cloned-soldiers-provide-high-return-on-investment/)
So, this is fun.
Aside from the usual canonical world-versus-gameplay WTF ("Wait. Why exactly would you put this much effort into training and equipping a functionally immortal soldier and then LET THAT SOLDIER FREELY SWITCH ALLEGIANCES TO HER OR HIS HEART'S CONTENT? How exactly is that cost effective for the agency that, y'know, did all the training?"), it appears that DUST operatives' place in the world is solidifying.
It also appears that CCP has its DUST soldier variant of capsuleer dementia ready to go: an "extreme form of PTSD."
I don't know about you guys, but I'm not sure I'm buying that last, at least not as written. A look through the documentation on RL Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder suggests that the disorder is brought on by incidents of extreme fear and especially helplessness, whether that means combat, rape, torture, a mugging, or diagnosis with a life-threatening illness.
It does not, at a cursory glance, appear to necessarily be brought on by traumatic pain (in the absence of extreme fear), which is the primary button CCP has been pushing for the mental degradation of DUST soldiers (see, e.g., the description of DUST medical nano-injectors). Other aspects of DUST soldiers' characterization suggest that DUST soldiers come to lack even a "basic self-preservation" level of fear: they become fearless to the point of recklessness, demonstrating lousy risk-versus-reward calculation.
That part fits, both with play style in practice and CCP's stated intent for same.
I don't doubt that DUST soldiers end up as "war dogs," ill suited to returning to civil society; I just don't think PTSD is a plausible reason, as such, certainly for those who stick with it long-term. I'd think the issue would be more one of detachment, similar to capsuleer "issues" but different in kind (DUST soldiers don't get the ship's-eye-view), and a learned tendency toward disregard for human life.
Thoughts?
-
I imagine there is some sort of hand waving involved since we're dealing with science fiction super soldiers. While many cases are as you said, brought on in situations of extreme fear, it is possible to be traumatized by situations where there is not threat of death to the individual. I'm sure the dust battlefield would cause acute stress to even a trained individual.
One of the criteria for PTSD is the symptoms have to exist at least a month after exposure to trauma. I'm uncertain how that would moderated by the frequent cloning that dust soldiers undergo.
-
It's always the same issue, like with the capsuleers. Why are the empires that control and educate them letting them the choice to get freely out ?
Instead of putting them under the control of the empires in the first place, CCP should have made the tech slowly leak everywhere so that every organization can educate them, which makes their original affiliation irrelevant eventually. No need to keep them in your clutches exclusively when everyone can afford them.
-
I'm sure the dust battlefield would cause acute stress to even a trained individual.
"Gods DAMN it getting cut in two with a plasma shotgun hurts!"
... Much with the pain (and maybe fear of pain). Maybe not so much with the helplessness or fear for one's continued existence. Still, it might provide a useful explanation for why so many DUST soldiers end up retiring (the old thing about how nobody plays an FPS for more than a year).
As a thought, it's a little like aversive training-- shocking a rat whenever it pushes the wrong button, only in this case it comes with repeated helpings of "Oh, gods, I'm dying!"
Some soldiers begin to treat the situation, mentally, something like a game in which "losing" has aversive training elements, adjusting their internal perception of their reality so that they try to avoid pain but do not fear for their lives. Such soldiers would probably have MAJOR trouble fitting back in with human society, since that perceptual switch is difficult to un-flip.
Others cannot quite get past the horror of "I actually felt that blaster bolt cook my face," and cannot switch off their mortal dread. They may follow their companions' recklessness, but get more mentally and emotionally battered every time they go down and soon become unable to function. That could work.
One of the criteria for PTSD is the symptoms have to exist at least a month after exposure to trauma. I'm uncertain how that would moderated by the frequent cloning that dust soldiers undergo.
Well, there might be some moderation of stress chemicals with each clone transcription, but I wonder whether abruptly putting the transferred mind into a new chemical state with each transfer might not have worse long-term effects than attempting seamless continuity.
-
(http://file027.bebo.com/3/mediuml/2007/01/28/04/3383035597a3383151845b486746288ml.jpg)
...Pain is scary.
-
Jayne offers a bit more than just pain, Creep.
As in, someone bigger, stronger, faster, and more ruthless than you are. Much with the helplessness there. That's the "torture" PTSD source type.
-
(http://www.blogcdn.com/blog.moviefone.com/media/2005/09/fonda.jpg)
"People scare better when they're dying." :P
-
I would like to note that the article makes mention of "Potential negatives". Also, the press in New Eden is pretty much as trustworthy as in the real world.
And I also imagine that it's not so much the fear of death, but the fear of dying. It would explain why currently few Dust bunnies wait for someone to revive them. :lol: "To hell with me drowning in my own blood, pull the plug!"
-
Looks good so far, although I would add in that there is one big element of DUST-dom we have absolutely no analogue to compare to: Repeated brain scannings and burnings into new clones. For all we know, that itself could be a HIGHLY traumatic experience with its own PTSD triggers (although personally I'd have gone with something more like Schizophrenia, DID, or Huntington's Disease induced by the above).
-
Looks good so far, although I would add in that there is one big element of DUST-dom we have absolutely no analogue to compare to: Repeated brain scannings and burnings into new clones. For all we know, that itself could be a HIGHLY traumatic experience with its own PTSD triggers (although personally I'd have gone with something more like Schizophrenia, DID, or Huntington's Disease induced by the above).
It seems to be pretty disorienting, initially. There's no indication in the PF that it's actually painful or, by itself, destabilizing, however.
Of course, if your new self arrives by drop uplink, that's another kettle of agonizing fish.
-
I think they should develop their own, unique psychological profile and 'duster dementia.'
If CCP just decides to go with PTS, I'm sure we can come up with something better.
-
I really don't see the major issue here - "When hurting, eat gun?" - assuming your in a condition to do so, the only thing a pain-averse Dustie should fear would be a situation where he/she was wounded to the point of being unable to self-terminate, assuming there is not some mentally activatable kill-switch you can flip to end it and return in a fresh run.
When death is meaningless, the only remaining scare-factor is immense pain, and assuming most infantry weapons and vehicle-mounted ordinance is highly effective at it's task, the situations where you last for a bit should be quite few. Even then there is the potential way out?
-
Jayne offers a bit more than just pain, Creep.
("Pain is scary" is his line in that scene.)
-
I think they should develop their own, unique psychological profile and 'duster dementia.'
If CCP just decides to go with PTS, I'm sure we can come up with something better.
Hmm. Well, "capsuleer dementia" (which I swear to the divinity of your choice I didn't invent) is based on observable behavior by capsuleer player characters, both "immersionist" and not.
It's pretty obvious.
DUST mercs are inevitably going to be a little more subtle. The people who don't really "get into it" are probably those who will move on to something else soon enough, while I suspect those who stick around will mostly be members of standing corporations. The more successful ones are apt to act in a manner that would nearly be reasonable for an RL soldier under similar circumstances.
What's really going to be telling is how DUST mercs (myself very much included) interact in practice with PvE elements. If CCP gives us destructible apartment buildings, will we destroy them? If it gives us enemy soldiers, do we insist on wiping everybody out, or do we just get the job done and go home?
How willing are we to die in order to give our teams a momentary advantage? (I already do this, often-- it's amazing how many people you can drive insane with bloodlust by wearing a scout suit and running right through their lines, bobbing and weaving like mad. Every hostile you draw off is someone who isn't killing your team or providing meaningful support to their own for as long as you survive.) How willing are we to slaughter pointlessly?
It's entirely possible that DUST soldiers (I'm sure Aria will have a thousand theories why) will be crazy in much less alienating ways than capsuleers-- more prone to reckless disregard for their own lives, less prone to reckless disregard for others'. And wouldn't that be interesting?
I really don't see the major issue here - "When hurting, eat gun?" - assuming your in a condition to do so, the only thing a pain-averse Dustie should fear would be a situation where he/she was wounded to the point of being unable to self-terminate, assuming there is not some mentally activatable kill-switch you can flip to end it and return in a fresh run.
When death is meaningless, the only remaining scare-factor is immense pain, and assuming most infantry weapons and vehicle-mounted ordinance is highly effective at it's task, the situations where you last for a bit should be quite few. Even then there is the potential way out?
DUST troops can suicide at will. That's not really the issue. The issue is mid- to long-term mental health. You don't have to lie there and slowly bleed out, but you do experience the traumatic injury that has you bleeding out in the first place. It's one of those situations where, if you're lucky, you just got pulped or your head got blown off.
If you're unlucky, you're suffering a deep puncture from a rail flechette, mitigated somewhat by your suit's now-breached armor matrix. If it hadn't been partially stopped, the kinetic energy would have torn you neatly apart. As it is, it's just splintered one of your ribs and ruptured a couple of your favorite organs.
Owie.
Even if you bail out, that's a bad moment.
Edit:
Also, there's the drop uplink, the short-range wormhole generator. Using it results in agony, followed in short-ish order by cellular (or something) degeneration and death. THAT has got to be an experience and a half: every nerve in your body reporting not only spatial warping but also that at least some of it wasn't put back together quite right.
Jayne offers a bit more than just pain, Creep.
("Pain is scary" is his line in that scene.)
Oh.
Well, I guess I've failed to keep my Firefly quotes properly memorized. Must remember to rewatch (though it always makes me sad).
-
PTSD arises from more than just personal injury. It also relates to the things you see and witness--the site of people being blown into bloody chunks, for example. Also, being able to clone doesn't change the fact that you're being constantly put into high stress situations. Even if you can ultimately "survive" it, that doesn't change the effect that constant stress is going to have on you.
So, I don't see PTSD being all that wrong of a diagnosis. War is hell, even when you survive it.
-
War is hell, even when you survive it.
Granted. However ... well, first of all, dropsuit durability seems to limit the amount of body horror in play. Then there's this: war may be hell even if you survive it, but what if there was never a substantial chance you wouldn't?
What if there was no substantial chance anybody wouldn't? Even the enemy?
What if you faced death half a dozen times in fifteen minutes, and each time received some variation of: an impact, some pain but not a huge amount (nerves burned by plasma, plus wound shock), nonfunctionality-- and a new, uninjured "you" waking up as if from a dark dream?
Surely, some minds would crumble. But....
It does seem different, doesn't it?
-
Despite game mechanics, I highly doubt that DUSTies would be only facing other DUSTies. Every now and then they're going to have to face regular, baseline soldiers, and/or fight with regular, baseline soldiers.
Also, facing death a dozen times in fifteen minutes, would lead to PTSD I think. Or similar. Your mind will acclimate to it, sure, but that acclimation itself usually is the mental issue. I don't think it'd be something people would just 'get over'.
-
It is worth noting that even drone operators who never leave their home base in the US are still experiencing PTSD. They are not being hurled aside by shockwaves, staunching the bloodflow from a wounded comrade, having to be constantly on edge even as they walk from the barracks to the bathroom, or experiencing any of the other kinds of infinite hells being directly on the battlefield offers.
The stress still gets to them. Detachment does not equal invulnerability from war's mental effects.
-
Despite game mechanics, I highly doubt that DUSTies would be only facing other DUSTies. Every now and then they're going to have to face regular, baseline soldiers, and/or fight with regular, baseline soldiers.
Also, facing death a dozen times in fifteen minutes, would lead to PTSD I think. Or similar. Your mind will acclimate to it, sure, but that acclimation itself usually is the mental issue. I don't think it'd be something people would just 'get over'.
To the first: historically, perhaps (PF hints at it), but apparently not at the moment. One side hires DUST mercs, so the other has to do the same.
To the second: it's the "or similar" that I'm looking at with such interest. I'm not saying DUST mercs are going to end up sane; I'm just not sure that "extreme PTSD" is quite the right diagnosis. The acclimation itself does strike me as a problem.
After all, it's acclimation to space that seems to be responsible for capsuleer dementia. I want to be able to sketch the DUST equivalent (oh, we wants it, precious).
It is worth noting that even drone operators who never leave their home base in the US are still experiencing PTSD. They are not being hurled aside by shockwaves, staunching the bloodflow from a wounded comrade, having to be constantly on edge even as they walk from the barracks to the bathroom, or experiencing any of the other kinds of infinite hells being directly on the battlefield offers.
The stress still gets to them. Detachment does not equal invulnerability from war's mental effects.
Ooo ... point. Very interesting point.
Even more of a point if DUST soldiers' doings cause collateral damage. I imagine inadvertently detonating a Taliban operative's kid sister would be the sort of thing to cause PTSD, even without any personal threat to life and limb.
-
DUSTies are probably so hopped up on combat drugs all the time, so they can never return to real life without serious rehab.
-
The many men, so beautiful!
And they all dead did lie:
And a thousand thousand slimy things
Lived on; and so did I.
-
It is worth noting that even drone operators who never leave their home base in the US are still experiencing PTSD. They are not being hurled aside by shockwaves, staunching the bloodflow from a wounded comrade, having to be constantly on edge even as they walk from the barracks to the bathroom, or experiencing any of the other kinds of infinite hells being directly on the battlefield offers.
The stress still gets to them. Detachment does not equal invulnerability from war's mental effects.
Ooo ... point. Very interesting point.
Even more of a point if DUST soldiers' doings cause collateral damage. I imagine inadvertently detonating a Taliban operative's kid sister would be the sort of thing to cause PTSD, even without any personal threat to life and limb.
Reading about this, it seems that the drone operator is in a position of making decisions, or being relied on, where screwing up can cause friendlies to die due to lack of support, or neutrals to die due to mis-identified target, and it's all there on TV to be played back later. The article talked about drone pilots having nightmares as if watching the film over and over without being able to change anything, which might hearken back to your "helplessness" criteria earlier.
-
From the new chronicle (Falling Skies):
"Tunen was mesmerized for a few seconds more as he looked into his own eyes. It was the first time he’d ever seen himself dead. His vacant, dust-covered features were visible through his shattered visor, identical but lifeless eyes staring back at him. "
There's one potential reason for PTSD.
“Do not underestimate our hostiles. Reports indicate we’re up against a sizable force of these prototype soldiers that have been in the news. You’ve all had the briefing; you know what they’re capable of.”
...
“Hey Tsu, you hear that? We’re up against those cloned freaks. We gotta keep the squad close-cut, good spacing, hit 'em hard and fast and be prepped to knock out their CRU if they keep coming.”
For those people who think that clone soldiers only fight other clone soldiers, here's an example of them fighting baseliners. So not everyone a DUSTie kills is going to be immortal. They're going to be killing mortals, too, and that's probably going to cause issues.
-
For those people who think that clone soldiers only fight other clone soldiers, here's an example of them fighting baseliners. So not everyone a DUSTie kills is going to be immortal. They're going to be killing mortals, too, and that's probably going to cause issues.
I think the general line has been that "we" clone soldiers (operatives) are currently fighting only our fellows.
It was obvious enough that there was other stuff going on elsewhere on Caldari Prime, but I can promise you that not a single PC merc ever saw action against regular military that day-- if only because CCP hasn't implemented any form of PvE yet.
SOON (TM) - but I'm not prepared to pretend that my character is already doing stuff she isn't doing, that none of us are doing. Fair enough if somebody is doing it, but the regular DUST mercenaries did not have this experience at all-- and our experiences are themselves canon, if "Eve is Real."
Edit:
What was there was pretty damn cool, mind you.
Further edit:
When we do get around to killing mere mortals, I'll be interested to see how it plays out in practice. One of the fun things about "studying" infomorphs as Aria has been attempting to interpret player actions in a game in a way that makes sense in the world.
-
"Tunen was mesmerized for a few seconds more as he looked into his own eyes. It was the first time he’d ever seen himself dead. His vacant, dust-covered features were visible through his shattered visor, identical but lifeless eyes staring back at him. "
There's one potential reason for PTSD.
Could be.
Its not exactly the same thing, but someone in my town once nearly choked to death on some food. He does not really have any issues with the experience, but one aspect of it causes him to daily wake up to nightmares: during the experience, he looked in a mirror and saw his own face filled with mortal dread. It is the image of that face that wakes him up at night.
-
"Tunen was mesmerized for a few seconds more as he looked into his own eyes. It was the first time he’d ever seen himself dead. His vacant, dust-covered features were visible through his shattered visor, identical but lifeless eyes staring back at him. "
There's one potential reason for PTSD.
Could be.
Its not exactly the same thing, but someone in my town once nearly choked to death on some food. He does not really have any issues with the experience, but one aspect of it causes him to daily wake up to nightmares: during the experience, he looked in a mirror and saw his own face filled with mortal dread. It is the image of that face that wakes him up at night.
...
TIL never to look in the mirror if I'm close to death.
That last line reads like something out of a Chronicle. "He looked in a mirror and saw his own face filled with mortal dread. It is the image of that face that wakes him up at night."