Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Character Development => Topic started by: Shal Novastorm on 22 Mar 2016, 18:53
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So! I just made a bright shiny Caldari alt because while I love my golden bananas of God, I really love Caldari style and aesthetics as well.
One problem...I don't know much about them!
Ok I know the basics, I know their elevator pitch, but I need more if I'm gonna write a character! So here's a few questions that are mainly my stumbling points.
1) What's up with the megacorps? Ok I know the names and how the general system works, but has there been any fiction and such about what life is actually like in megacorp controlled stuff? Like, is the 'culture' in Lai Dai holdings different than Kaalakiota like going from, say China to...I dunno...France? Or is there kinda a unified 'Caldari culture' by now? Along with that, how are the 'smaller corporations' handled, do they exist at all or is it just one huge web of subsidiaries and shells and all?
2) Tube Babies, what's up with that? So I know it's a background for Deteis but what about Civire? How are these guys viewed by the people, especially considering apparently the program stopped? Is it just like 'yea that's Ted his mom was a machine, weird' or are they lower on the food chain or what have you?
3) So...how we doin? This is mainly just my own lack of reading about Caldari up until right now, really, but what's the current state of things for them? What would be something their people are concerned about, either domestic or interplanetary? Related to that, what's the current diplomatic standings with them? Obviously they and Gallente aren't on good terms but what about the rest of the folks out there, do we have any other major enemies or friends to keep in mind?
I will probably have more questions later but right now these are the pressing ones ;)
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Simple answer is to just watch as much Japanese anime as you can until you reach cringeworthy levels of weeabo. Then proceed to slap on whatever mish-mash of eastern religions/philosophies on top of all the anime tropes you have extracted and you end up with a pretty close approximation of how Caldari are interpreted by the majority of roleplayers.
Bonus points for knowing who John Galt is.
Bonus points for Zaibatsu.
Bonus points for using Napaanii as placeholders for -senpai and -desu suffixes.
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If you wanna get really into the Caldari, I suggest you play the old Syndicate game (not the new one, as I hear many bad things about it) or Satellite Reign, watch Ghost in the Shell (lots of it), play Shadowrun (also lots of that), consume lots and lots of Cyberpunk fiction especially those that feature the Neo-Japan, and then start a Caldari character.
The Gallente Federation covers the 'sex, drugs, rock-and-roll' part of Cyberpunk fiction while the Caldari State covers the rest of it (surveillance, Corporate culture, Corporations being the government, Corporate Warfare...').
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Yea I already love stuff like Syndicate and Shadowrun so I think I have a good baseline of 'living in corporate controlled world'.
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Yea I already love stuff like Syndicate and Shadowrun so I think I have a good baseline of 'living in corporate controlled world'.
Just be aware that unlike typical Cyberpunk megacorps, the Caldari State megas aren't exactly all corrupt profit-driven psychopathic organisations. They will give a damn about their citizens for as long as said citizens have *something* to contribute to their society, so also expect them to subject underperforming citizens to intense vocational training in an attempt to make them useful at something. They will only fire him and strip him of his citizenship if he turned out to be just so bad at everything.
Pre-Heth Caldari State is through and through Cyberpunk Megacorp Society though so might want to take note of that and work that into the roleplay.
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1)
All Caldari are first and foremost that, Caldari. The differences may not be easily spotted by outsiders and probably just in the more extreme cases, as even the most liberal and the most conservative subfactions tick very similarily. More or less all basic tenets are identical and politically, the corporations differ not in their direction but on the ways to achieve this. This is important to state, as in public day to day play was often (The author is not without guilt) focused on verbal conflict without having real opportunities to show the other side: Regardless what the problem is, against an outside threat, Caldari tend to stand together.
This is characteristical of a closed society, and one that has been forged from conflict: Surviving on and emerging from a less-than-optimal planet and of course the secession war. So in peacetime Caldari will happily disagree, squabble, fight and backstab each other for gains and power.
So, the big eight, their subcorporations and the other multi-regional huge corporations (and smaller that have not yet been swallowed) that comprise the State will show differences. All variations of a theme.
2) The test tube program was aimed at bolstering population numbers.
[spoiler]
"Bottle of mine, it's you I've always wanted!
Bottle of mine, why was I ever decanted?
Skies are blue inside of you,
The weather's always fine;
For there ain't no Bottle in all the world
Like that dear little Bottle of mine."
A. Huxley, Brave New World, 1931, Chapter 5, Part 1, pg. 76.[/spoiler]
There's not much lore around the acceptance in the population, but it would be safe to assume that if you go to the trouble of growing your humans you will select only very apt specimen. And then socialize them completely over your own corporate creches and programs. So, where Huxley's vision has no traditional upbringing anymore and breeds everyone according to their future position with the tools they need (and only those) for the job, CCP's caldari use this to bolster their natural growth and probably would aim rather at perfection than breeding simpletons. Seeing as capsuleers are the 0.000001% you can also make a case that this may be the byproduct of a project to create a statistically higher number of people in the population who can survive capsuleer implants.
3) Heth has been removed, the provist revolution is over and the remaining elements are branded as terrorists. There is a Kaalakiota spring (of interest for the author) and a tough spot for the remaining provist elements in capsuleerdom. The conflict with the gallente is still unresolved and the once reoccupied home planet has been fought over and held in a very unstable draw until one of the liberal megacorporations (Ishukone) stepped in with direct negotiations, leading to a lot of internal friction. In the end, diplomacy has led to a divided Berlin Caldari Prime and probably done more for the conflict than further escalation would have merited.
Relations with the other empires are more or less as usual.
The Republic is allied with the federation but neither the Caldari nor the Minmatar have any interest in fighting each other.
With the Amarr, the recent drifter mediated empressectomy has lead to the question who is going to be the next emperor. There are many candidates and from a caldari perspective, someone who is not that hard into the whole Reclamation business of all nonbelievers would be preferable.
4) I can recommend reading some of the caldari chronicles. The three about the Caldari/Gallente war are worthwhile, as is 'State Factionalism' and the Caldari demographics article. They should be on the copy of evelopedia on this page. History of the Gallente Federation has, in the appropriate section of the timeline, also some interesting bits about the Caldari/Gallente war.
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Simple answer is to just watch as much Japanese anime as you can until you reach cringeworthy levels of weeabo. Then proceed to slap on whatever mish-mash of eastern religions/philosophies on top of all the anime tropes you have extracted and you end up with a pretty close approximation of how Caldari are interpreted by the majority of roleplayers.
Bonus points for knowing who John Galt is.
Bonus points for Zaibatsu.
Bonus points for using Napaanii as placeholders for -senpai and -desu suffixes.
In case you don't speak Australian, Veikitamo is suggesting you DON'T do the above. Strongly suggesting it.
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To answer your questions more fully though:
1) I've always viewed all the Megas as having subtley distinct cultures which are variations on an overall Caldari culture. For example you can take two Megacorps like Kaalakiota and Wiyrkomi within the same political and economic sphere to see potential differences.
Kaalakiota: The corporation of Mathias Sobaseki who was the CEO during the secession and one of its chief architects and orators. The largest Megacorporation in terms of population and market capitalization to the extent it is larger still than the next two Megas combined. The first Megacorp to create its own corporate military in the Home Guard. One of the largest weapons manufacturers in the entire cluster.
Kaalakiota and its citizens are probably seen as arrogant, proud, conservative, and militant even by the standards of the Caldari. They have a strong Manifest Destiny ideology in which they consider themselves as continuing the work of Mathias Sobaseki and are the defenders of a, "True," Caldari culture. The war with the Federation has never truly ended for Kaalakiota and the citizens of the other Megacorporations might be seen as the inheritors of backstabbers and traitors for signing the first peace with the Federation. The size of its military industries are directly tied to its belief of continued war against the Federation. Kaalakiota is likely a significant reason there has not been a thaw in relations between State and Federation.
Its internal culture is one that is deeply militarized, ruthless, and ambitious in the sense that its citizens are not just doing things for themselves or the company itself but pursuing that manifest destiny of strength and power for the Caldari people. What is good for Kaalakiota is good for the Caldari.
Wiyrkomi: Controlled by the ruling Seituoda family, Wiyrkomi exist as staunch traditionalists. Due to the nature of being controlled by a single dynastic family Wiyrkomi likely has very strong associations with traditional Caldari feudalism in which the Seituoda are regarded as the modern incarnation of a Warlord family that existed well into the Caldari industrial age before contact with the Gallente.
The focus on traditional feudalism is an important basis in ensuring continued support for the Seituoda family. Wiyrkomi's involvement with Kaalakiota and Lai Dai in the Patriot faction also hints at the fact that it might be a focus on the more martial aspects of Caldari feudalism combined with nationalist sentiment which would make sense if the intent is to use both as the foundations of the Seituoda dynasty.
Wiyrkomi's internal culture is probably one that focuses on things like the traditional code of honour, Heiian, combined with following the unwritten rules and protocols during the Caldari Warlord period. I suppose if anything it would be Wiyrkomi that would be the closest Caldari approximation to being a blend of Japan during its Daimyo/Shogunate era combined with corporate principles.
All the Megas have distinct flavours to them when you look deeper aside from Ishukone which is understandable since it's only used to drive whatever CCP plot is needed and thus is its culture can be described as being for roleplay Fuckbois only.
2) Yes, there are probably Civire tube children. It's a Deteis background because when the tube program was implemented the Deteis population was much smaller and in decline. There's a dichotomy to tube children since on the one hand they have the stigma of not conforming to the Caldari ideal of being raised in a, "Proper," Family with a Mother and Father. On the other, as orphans raised by a corporation if they were not adopted into a family they are potentially some of the most loyal and zealous corporate citizens.
Whilst I think many of them did potentially fall to the bottom rungs of the corporate ladder I believe it was the unintentional consequence of not having access to the same social and patronage networks within the corporations that would have occurred if they had parents (advantage building upon advantage). To the extent that many would probably have found the rhetoric of the Provists appealing due to resentment at feeling underutilized and disenfranchized by the nepotism as they saw it within the State.
However, due to their being raised solely by a Mega itself many tube children might also have found themselves in positions of power and authority within corporate security and intelligence circles in particular.
3) In brief Tibus Heth screwed over Kaalakiota as its CEO by driving it into a massive debt burden trying to fund the current war and lacking the skills of knowing how to rub two coins together to make a third. He got booted out along with the Provists and his predecessor Haatakan Oiritsuu came back in.
The State appears to be in a recovery and re-organization period. Ishukone continues its proud tradition of selling out to the Federation for more shekels.
That's about it.
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Hrm. I haven't really played a straight-up Caldari since it got clarified how much Achura are their own thing. But....
1) What's up with the megacorps? Ok I know the names and how the general system works, but has there been any fiction and such about what life is actually like in megacorp controlled stuff? Like, is the 'culture' in Lai Dai holdings different than Kaalakiota like going from, say China to...I dunno...France? Or is there kinda a unified 'Caldari culture' by now? Along with that, how are the 'smaller corporations' handled, do they exist at all or is it just one huge web of subsidiaries and shells and all?
Caldari culture: broadly unified, but there's certainly some variation (mostly agree with Gesakaarin). I might compare it to regional differences within a nation state. As others have noted, Caldari bicker among themselves but generally pull together against outside threats.
Smaller corps: there may be such a thing, somewhere ("special category" operations that don't fit into the normal Caldari social structure but have carved out a stable niche), but mostly it's apt to be a quasi-feudal structure where every business owes fealty to something higher. I'd guess that it's not illegal to start your own, just really, really hard because every corporation will do its flat best to force you to conform and submit to corporate oversight (refusing to do business with such a disreputable operation being a typical angle). Note that losing all megacorporate sponsorship typically means becoming a Nonentity, which means you're no longer a person and anyone can do basically anything they want to you.
So-- yeah. Being independent: majorly hard road to travel, and probably one usually taken by necessity rather than choice. I can easily see some Nonentities banding together to run a sort of deniable "odd jobs" or courier service, shades of Firefly or Shadowrun.
2) Tube Babies, what's up with that? So I know it's a background for Deteis but what about Civire? How are these guys viewed by the people, especially considering apparently the program stopped? Is it just like 'yea that's Ted his mom was a machine, weird' or are they lower on the food chain or what have you?
Largely discussed by others. I do think something deemed so important is unlikely to carry much social stigma, and Caldari aren't usually very questioning of authority. I'd expect the most common attitude is, "Well, it's a little weird, but I guess it's for the good and greater glory of the State, so-- welcome to the world, kid!"
Mind you, tube children will normally, and necessarily, have been raised in the creche system. Some of the old PF implied that some parts of that were just awful, IIRC.
3) So...how we doin? This is mainly just my own lack of reading about Caldari up until right now, really, but what's the current state of things for them? What would be something their people are concerned about, either domestic or interplanetary? Related to that, what's the current diplomatic standings with them? Obviously they and Gallente aren't on good terms but what about the rest of the folks out there, do we have any other major enemies or friends to keep in mind?
Vox populi: generally experiencing buyer's remorse for ever having backed the now-deposed Heth. Lots of, "Well, he did some good, though, didn't he?" combined with, "Sure, but I'm not sure it was worth it," and "Meh. Whatever; it just goes to show, don't poke your nose above your station. Let's get back to work."
International relations ...
Gallente: more complicated than it looks. At (limited) war, sure, but the two remain entangled at a bunch of levels and are sharing jurisdiction over Caldari Prime. Plenty of tension, but it's only a shooting war in the actual war zone. Caldari often bristle at any hint of a Gallentean telling them what they ought to do, especially for a moral or values-based reason.
Amarr: allies (sort of) of convenience. The Caldari don't like slavery (even if some of their own practices occasionally come damn close), and they're EXTREMELY protective of their own culture. Amarr characters (IC) often make hopeful noises about the Caldari peacefully converting, but actual Caldari (or Amarr who have lived in the State) tend to be well aware that it's not a realistic possibility.
Khanid Kingdom (splinter off Amarr) (note that this is distinct from the Khanid bloodline): much better relations, extensive trade. Khanid nationals in the State are actually allowed to practice their religion (!) so long as they do it in private.
Mordu's Legion: probably slightly strained relations since Heth, but generally on very good terms. Retiring Mordu's mercs are offered State (I'm assuming corporate, of their choice) citizenship. That's how well these groups get along.
Minmatar: culturally, maybe simpatico. Politically, not so much, but that might change at some point. As long as the Republic backs the Federation, and vice versa, though, they're still basically at odds with the State.
Many others to cover, but data is sketchy and I need breakfast.
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Simple answer is to just watch as much Japanese anime as you can until you reach cringeworthy levels of weeabo. Then proceed to slap on whatever mish-mash of eastern religions/philosophies on top of all the anime tropes you have extracted and you end up with a pretty close approximation of how Caldari are interpreted by the majority of roleplayers.
Bonus points for knowing who John Galt is.
Bonus points for Zaibatsu.
Bonus points for using Napaanii as placeholders for -senpai and -desu suffixes.
In case you don't speak Australian, Veikitamo is suggesting you DON'T do the above. Strongly suggesting it.
In which case, in the same spirit and vein, further bonus points for playing Caldari as the second coming of the Helghast (http://killzone.wikia.com/wiki/Helghan_Empire).
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You're being sarcastic, but it's actually not a terrible link. It doesn't need much turning up of the trope to end up with die-hard ("late") provists.
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In which case, in the same spirit and vein, further bonus points for playing Caldari as the second coming of the Helghast (http://killzone.wikia.com/wiki/Helghan_Empire).
Do I get further bonus points for having helped develop the Helghast? If anyone gets to play one in Eve, it ought to be the guy who wrote half of Visari's propaganda...
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In which case, in the same spirit and vein, further bonus points for playing Caldari as the second coming of the Helghast (http://killzone.wikia.com/wiki/Helghan_Empire).
Do I get further bonus points for having helped develop the Helghast? If anyone gets to play one in Eve, it ought to be the guy who wrote half of Visari's propaganda...
Moist.
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You're being sarcastic, but it's actually not a terrible link. It doesn't need much turning up of the trope to end up with die-hard ("late") provists.
Oh, I'm well aware of the connection, just as Veiki is aware of the Shinto overtones of the Way of the Winds (it's easy to argue that the Caldari aren't Japanese; it's a little harder to argue that there's no inspiration being drawn from there, or from East Asia generally. Directly prescribing death by suicide as a matter of honor and the idea that another culture's native religion is the same as your own despite obvious superficial differences are two examples. Naming conventions and a host of little cultural tropes are others. A lot of the old discussions of the Caldari painted them as a sort of blend of German, Japanese, and Finnish cultural traits).
My objection to dealing with the Caldari as Space Nazis has less to do with there being no basis for it, and more to do with feeling that approaching it that way sells them short and renders them far less interesting. The Caldari have gotten a lot of canonical detail the last few years, and I'm far and away more interested in seeing such things played with than being up to our eyeballs in unvarnished fascists.
So, sure, you can play a Templis Dragonaur if you like, but I wouldn't expect it to be a very interesting experience, at least compared to the alternatives.
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The thing is, the canonical details of the Caldari State provide an image of a society that is not Nazi Germany or the Helghast, but it is one that is deeply authoritarian. By that I mean a society that considers itself under continuous external threat and which becomes one that is highly militarized; prioritizes security over concepts such as personal liberties or human rights; and which has the expectations that citizens conform to particular cultural and social norms in return for being rewarded with a middle-class existence.
So when Caldari are called fascists and thus prescribing to a political ideology whose core tenets was a belief that the individual, society, and the institutions of the state were not separate but one and the same then it is a jackboot that fits quite well.
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The thing is, the canonical details of the Caldari State provide an image of a society that is not Nazi Germany or the Helghast, but it is one that is deeply authoritarian. By that I mean a society that considers itself under continuous external threat and which becomes one that is highly militarized; prioritizes security over concepts such as personal liberties or human rights; and which has the expectations that citizens conform to particular cultural and social norms in return for being rewarded with a middle-class existence.
So when Caldari are called fascists and thus prescribing to a political ideology whose core tenets was a belief that the individual, society, and the institutions of the state were not separate but one and the same then it is a jackboot that fits quite well.
I don't dispute that it fits Tibus Heth and the Templis Dragonaurs to a T. Both the Federation and State have now had their fascist moments and both of those moments have led to war. I also don't dispute that the Caldari flirt more or less continuously with fascism.
However, the Caldari system of government isn't nearly totalitarian enough (rule by a bunch of fractious corporations instead of a single strong man or party). They're too tolerant of dissent (even discounting the political differences among corporations, "jaalan" dissidents may have trouble finding work, but they're not normally in physical danger) and accepting of outsiders (as long as they either conform or keep to themselves-- or, in the case of the Khanid, of they just keep relatively quiet). They have literally fought wars to ensure the ability of outsiders to settle among them (the Waschi Uprising). Only the Patriots are even really fans of strict isolationism. And on and on.
We've had this conversation a few times before, Veiki. It hasn't become more true since the last time, and Heth is currently in bad odor and probably dead.
The fascists in Caldari society are the Templis. They keep popping up, and are probably as permanent a feature of Caldari life as Sani Sabik are for the Amarr, but the Caldari as a people and civilization are only ALMOST fascist.
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We've had this conversation a few times before, Veiki. It hasn't become more true since the last time, and Heth is currently in bad odor and probably dead.
Except it has become true in Eve: Source that the Megacorporations themselves are fascist entities. They control their citizens' birth, education, who they will marry, where they will work, incentivize what they should buy, the media they should consume, and have internal security apparatus that conduct constant surveillance to such an extent that it would make the Stasi go, "Wow, now that's a police state."
The Megas don't tolerate dissidents, just go read Methods of Torture: Caldari to see what they do with dissidents. They literally go full 1984 on you and toss you into a room 101 where they get into your head until you accept that you've always loved the corporation and always will.
Fascism is nationalism, authoritarian governance, and cultural conservatism taken towards a very specific conclusion. They are also essential elements of the Caldari and the Megas themselves as presented in the lore. The Provists were just a reactionary element of what happens when you take a society that already has deep roots of nationalism and acceptance of authoritarianism when it faces a crises -- the solution isn't a rejection of those values but rather a more extreme form of it.
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Also as an aside: Jin-Roh > Helghast.
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The Caldari State is very authoritarian and, while open to non-ethnic outsiders, demands all subjects to conform to the rules. Dissidence may be tolerated to some degree in order to avoid echo chambers that are bad for business, but I reckon someone questioning the system will be finding a new job deployment in blackbagistan quite soon.
Provists have tried to turn the authoritarian system into some national socialist State, with leader culture, racism and politics aimed at caring for the lower, working classes. So, yes, provists crank the fascism level up to 11. The others have it at a solid 7 to 9, depending on the megacorporation in question.
Edit: For roleplaying perspectives: We're discussing wide backgrounds here but ingame we're not playing an entire race or culture, we're playing individuals. Extraordinary individuals, most likely much more liberal than their ancestry, simply from the sum of experiences our characters are capable of - from multiple lives over the complete freedom to meet whoever whereever they want.
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The Megas don't tolerate dissidents, just go read Methods of Torture: Caldari to see what they do with dissidents. They literally go full 1984 on you and toss you into a room 101 where they get into your head until you accept that you've always loved the corporation and always will.
Fascism is nationalism, authoritarian governance, and cultural conservatism taken towards a very specific conclusion. They are also essential elements of the Caldari and the Megas themselves as presented in the lore. The Provists were just a reactionary element of what happens when you take a society that already has deep roots of nationalism and acceptance of authoritarianism when it faces a crises -- the solution isn't a rejection of those values but rather a more extreme form of it.
I wouldn't expect a fascist government to accept peers, particularly peers with which it itself is intermingled. I'd distinguish authoritarianism from totalitarianism by way of defining fascism, though concededly the definition can shrink or grow.
The guy in Methods of Torture isn't a dissident; he's a thief. A petty embezzler.
Edit:
So, we're not the only ones to have wrestled some with this. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism) One of the problems with arguing about fascism, it seems, is that it is, itself, difficult to define.
Further edit:
So-- it seems like the Caldari fit some definitions of fascism, but not others. In almost all cases, they have at least some of the defining traits. However, they are not aggressively anti-feminist; they're not obsessed with internal threats; the charismatic leadership was present, but bit the big one a while back; they're not much inclined towards imperialism and expansionism; they're not fans of thoughtless action; their meritocracy is based more on actual merit than on personal heroism; they're not so much afraid of difference as insistent upon conformity or else that "difference" go live in its own town over there; and so on.
They've got a lot of the traits for sure, though.
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Sure fascism is hard to define not only because in modern usage it has particular connotations aside from what it was: a reactionary ideology that popped up in 1920's - 1940's Italy and adopted in part with a particular racial dimension on top in Nazi Germany.
Incoherent as it was as an ideology it did have particular traits such as being anti-democratic, rejecting democracy in favour of a top-down authority, bellicosity in foreign affairs, and a nationalism obsessed with preserving a "True" culture.
Now sure, the Provists could be described as trying to seek a fascist Caldari State but they would not have come into power and had the support they did have if the threads of authoritarianism, nationalism, rejection of democratic/liberal politics, and militarism weren't already present in Caldari society and the Megacorps.
And that's the thing, the very things that the corporate leadership use to legitimize and ensure their authority as a whole, are also the very same things that can bite them back in the ass when their methods of control fail in keeping the proletariat in line.
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What he was going to do with them, he can't remember. Probably nothing; stolen on a vague notion, the idea of gain, rather than for any concrete use. His ideas veered from blackmail to selling to simply putting the documents back.
When they came for him, he was still trying to decide. That's what hurt all the way through: He hadn't even done anything yet! He had taken the documents and he was sorry, but he wasn't a bad man. He wasn't a traitor.
They didn't believe him.
Petty thief - that depends on your viewpoint. In a private company it'd be embezzling, in a state corporation that can be seen as treason. I don't think political dissidents would be tolerated while thieves get mindfucked for months in an attempt to reprogram them.
Regarding the definitions of fascism: The State is a fictional concept that has been written and influenced by multiple sources. It has no equivalent in the real world, neither today nor in the past. Of course it does not fit existing forms of government to the T as it is something new. You can describe it as deeply authoritarian but it lacks a leader figure. It is fascist but not imperalistic nor completely segregated by race. It is hyper-capitalistic but loyal to its subjects.
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Sure fascism is hard to define not only because in modern usage it has particular connotations aside from what it was: a reactionary ideology that popped up in 1920's - 1940's Italy and adopted in part with a particular racial dimension on top in Nazi Germany.
Incoherent as it was as an ideology it did have particular traits such as being anti-democratic, rejecting democracy in favour of a top-down authority, bellicosity in foreign affairs, and a nationalism obsessed with preserving a "True" culture.
Now sure, the Provists could be described as trying to seek a fascist Caldari State but they would not have come into power and had the support they did have if the threads of authoritarianism, nationalism, rejection of democratic/liberal politics, and militarism weren't already present in Caldari society and the Megacorps.
And that's the thing, the very things that the corporate leadership use to legitimize and ensure their authority as a whole, are also the very same things that can bite them back in the ass when their methods of control fail in keeping the proletariat in line.
Sure, but the Federals, as it turned out at a certain period, also had a fascist bone in their body politic-- and theirs came to the fore much earlier. And I'd argue that due to the decentralized and rather fractious nature of Caldari governance, it's actually the Federation that has a higher likelihood of an abrupt surge of populist sentiment sweeping a fascist figure into power.
The Caldari tend to be relatively trusting of authority and elitist, rather than populist, in their cultural instincts. It takes a pretty major social breakdown for them to lift a Hitler analogue into power, and that's something that doesn't seem to come to them easily (we know of only the once).
Let me be clear: when I criticize the playing of reheated Helghast, what I'm criticizing is the decision to play an unambiguous space Nazi (exactly what the Helghast are in Killzone I, II, and III; I can't speak to the latest), while, I might add, expressing contempt for multiple ingredients in Caldari roleplay that have a pedigree going back WAY before Tony G's Space Hitler-- and before Source. Those more recent sources are canon, fine, but so is Cold Wind, so are the Achura, so's the Caldari sense of honor, and so is the upper crust of Caldari society that did indeed at one time seem to have read way the hell too much Ayn Rand. (Who the hell do you think the revolt that swept Heth into power was revolting against?! Bunch of Gallentean-inspired corporate types deciding to go all individualist in a society that demands everybody work towards the common good.)
If we need to resurrect the term "fascist" from its moribund status as an insult based on the ways it manifested in the mid-20th Century, fine, but you should be aware that we're now using it in a way that could apply to many authoritarian regimes both before that time and since.
The Rook is absolutely correct that The State is a fictional construct influenced by multiple sources. I'm perfectly happy to concede that there are fascist, and even Nazi, overtones (sometimes quiet, as in Caldari ship design, sometimes overt, as in Space Hitler), but there have been many, many others as well.
To my eye, the worst thing about a fictional fascist entity is simply this: it's boring as hell. Banal as paperwork and dull as dust. The fascist aspects of the State are the ones I'm least-interested in exploring. The interesting bits are in the nuances-- the ways the State functions, and has functioned, as a coherent theoretical entity. Not what makes the Caldari like the Helghast, but what makes them different in ways that matter.
I've always maintained that Eve is a setting short on both heroes and villains. Turning the Caldari into the goddamn Nazis makes for pretty unambiguous, and stupid, villains-- and that sells the whole civilization horribly short. They're both more sophisticated, and more interesting, than that, and while I admire Tom Horn and DK's willingness to go that route, I'm not even a little bit interested in following.
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Well all the factions are more sophisticated and interesting than the obvious tropes and derivative content most roleplayers choose to reflect about them.
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Well all the factions are more sophisticated and interesting than the obvious tropes and derivative content most roleplayers choose to reflect about them.
And yet Eve has the most sophisticated player base I've seen in an RPG. Seriously. It's part of why I'm back at it.
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Well all the factions are more sophisticated and interesting than the obvious tropes and derivative content most roleplayers choose to reflect about them.
And yet Eve has the most sophisticated player base I've seen in an RPG. Seriously. It's part of why I'm back at it.
I agree, but my point still stands.
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If you take the literal meaning of the word fascism -the principle of state- as a base to define it's meaning you will agree that the Caldari state is indeed fascist. All effort is focussed on it's value to the state and the citizens are judged by their conformity and contribution. The state is above all and everyone only exists to serve it.
In the specific case of the Caldari this system is, other than we have experienced with rl fascist systems, not organized following the Führerprinzip with one absolute dictator at the top but using a quasi feudal system:
Citizens serve a corp and are measured by their value to it, corps serve megacorps, megacorps guide the common effort of all caldari through a complicated and unclear system of interdependencies, negotiations and power games.
As said befor, the difference of the provists was that they were not simply fascist but national socialists, which the state otherwise is not.
How dissidents are treated is not been made canonically clear for the entire state. As with all things, except the basic devotion to the common struggle, this will be highly dependant on local custom. Kalaakiota will treat them differently than ishukone. In some areas they may simply be social outcasts without employment in others they may be executed. Same fot tubers, one corp may have run a campaign to promote their social acceptance while another still discriminates them as not real humans.
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Well all the factions are more sophisticated and interesting than the obvious tropes and derivative content most roleplayers choose to reflect about them.
And yet Eve has the most sophisticated player base I've seen in an RPG. Seriously. It's part of why I'm back at it.
I agree, but my point still stands.
Your point stands insofar as it's possible to do any trope or cultural portrayal badly.
Veiki, back when I started playing (and even more when the game launched), the lore on the Caldari was, to say the least, thin. We had hints, we had snippets, but there was far, far more of the lore that hadn't yet been developed. Hethler hadn't happened yet. Tony G's worst sin to that point was transposing the Scorpion and Raven in "Ruthless"-- which was widely recommended as required reading for Caldari roleplayers.
In the absence of solid data, people made up a bunch of stuff as they went along. Not all of it was the best worldbuilding, and even some of it that got adopted, sort of, hasn't ultimately made it into canon as written (kresh, apparently, is pretty much just a tree good for making Caldari types of tea). More to the point, there were piles and piles of it that were written as tentative, until CCP either adopted or rejected them-- but were allowed to stand for years uncontradicted.
Had Source and a bunch of the lore articles been released a decade earlier, a lot of stuff might have gone differently. As it was, a lot of stuff filtered in over time, and not all of it's filtered out yet. I'm not even sure all of it should. Eastern philosophical traditions actually provide a much stronger grounding for a Caldari and/or Achura-style society than Western "Enlightenment" rationalism, contain multiple possible "Way of the Winds" analogues, and explain neatly why the Caldari Wayists saw siblings in the Achur monasteries rather than rivals (that's a trait of Asian religions to this day-- Taoists and Buddhists may quibble over whose vision of the world is deeper, but neither will dispute that the other has a point. You can find Korean animist shrines on Buddhist temple grounds in the heart of Seoul).
Also, Eve's Eurocentric enough as it blasted well is. ("Brutor?" Seriously?) We do NOT need the Gallente and Caldari reduced to WWII French and Germans, and if you consider me a "weeaboo" for following an Asian thread where several have been laid out?
So. Goddamn. Be. It.
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Everything you're describing has literally nothing to do with the political system of the State, though, so I don't really see where the issue with it is.
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Also, Eve's Eurocentric enough as it blasted well is. ("Brutor?" Seriously?) We do NOT need the Gallente and Caldari reduced to WWII French and Germans, and if you consider me a "weeaboo" for following an Asian thread where several have been laid out?
So. Goddamn. Be. It.
I use the term weeabo in this context if one applies a direct one-to-one analogue with Japanese popular media culture, society, or history to seek in constructing an idealized image. Caldari Wayism might share some parallels with shintoism or buddhism but it is not a direct analogue, because the Caldari are Caldari and as such the context of their spiritualism lies in Caldari history and culture -- not Japanese. Or Korean. Or Chinese.
Apples and Oranges are not the same just because they are both fruits.
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Also, Eve's Eurocentric enough as it blasted well is. ("Brutor?" Seriously?) We do NOT need the Gallente and Caldari reduced to WWII French and Germans, and if you consider me a "weeaboo" for following an Asian thread where several have been laid out?
So. Goddamn. Be. It.
I use the term weeabo in this context if one applies a direct one-to-one analogue with Japanese popular media culture, society, or history to seek in constructing an idealized image. Caldari Wayism might share some parallels with shintoism or buddhism but it is not a direct analogue, because the Caldari are Caldari and as such the context of their spiritualism lies in Caldari history and culture -- not Japanese. Or Korean. Or Chinese.
Apples and Oranges are not the same just because they are both fruits.
No disagreement, but those who find a direct analog are few and far between to the point where I'm not sure I've ever met one-- though every so often someone tries to tell the Amarr about this "Christ" guy they've been leaving out since their prehistory.
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though every so often someone tries to tell the Amarr about this "Christ" guy they've been leaving out since their prehistory.
Or appropriating the honorific of, "Ser", because the Amarr Empire exists in Westeros and Jamyl Sarum was the Khaleesi.
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though every so often someone tries to tell the Amarr about this "Christ" guy they've been leaving out since their prehistory.
Or appropriating the honorific of, "Ser", because the Amarr Empire exists in Westeros and Jamyl Sarum was the Khaleesi.
Sure. And George R.R. Martin stole it from "Wing Commander: Privateer 2."
(Except I have no reason to think he did.)
On the whole, Veiki, I'm just not especially interested in throwing rocks at people whose RP has a ways to develop. Canonical discussion, all good. Philosophical discussions, I prefer to have IC. Discussing how somebody is teh bads? ... not so interested.
So if your advice is really just "don't be awful," I guess I don't have much to say, other than to note that hardly any of us were any good when we started.
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On the whole, Veiki, I'm just not especially interested in throwing rocks at people whose RP has a ways to develop. Canonical discussion, all good. Philosophical discussions, I prefer to have IC. Discussing how somebody is teh bads? ... not so interested.
So if your advice is really just "don't be awful," I guess I don't have much to say, other than to note that hardly any of us were any good when we started.
I'm just pointing out that roleplayers projecting a derivative analogue of their preferred media, historical periods, politics, and worldviews on to their characters and factions -- such as fascist Caldari or Westorian Amarr -- is no fault of the canon lore as written by CCP but roleplayers themselves who turn it into the absurdities of crossover fanfiction.
That said, sure I think it's pretty awful but I also accept it as the current status quo within the roleplaying community and honestly if people enjoy doing crossover fanfiction roleplay with each other then that is their prerogative. I mean even The Mittani seems to really enjoy his Warhammer 40k/Eve Online crossover fanfiction roleplay so it's probably got a wide appeal for a lot of people who play - just not me.
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I'm just pointing out that roleplayers projecting a derivative analogue of their preferred media, historical periods, politics, and worldviews on to their characters and factions -- such as fascist Caldari or Westorian Amarr -- is no fault of the canon lore as written by CCP but roleplayers themselves who turn it into the absurdities of crossover fanfiction.
That said, sure I think it's pretty awful but I also accept it as the current status quo within the roleplaying community and honestly if people enjoy doing crossover fanfiction roleplay with each other then that is their prerogative. I mean even The Mittani seems to really enjoy his Warhammer 40k/Eve Online crossover fanfiction roleplay so it's probably got a wide appeal for a lot of people who play - just not me.
I do not know where you get this impression that "crossover fanfiction" is the norm.
Inspiration and occasional transplanting of particular concepts that seem to more or less fit, sure. Crossover? Really? I enjoy "Game of Thrones," I enjoy Amarr RP, and I don't see that much of one in the other aside from the logical consequences of a feudal culture surviving into a sci-fi age ("my lord," etc.).
Maybe I just don't care so much, but I don't think these phenomena are as widespread as you suggest.
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Possibly the problem with the Caldari is that real life is a bit short of direct analogs of their way of doing things. Sure we've had, and still have, places where megas are very influential. But I can't think of a time & place where corporations have decided to do without government and do it all the work of raising, training & looking after a workforce themselves.
Maybe "corporation" is the wrong term for the megas? Maybe they are better thought of as allied nations that are all run on corporate lines.
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Arnulf,
There is a government in the State. It covers (national) foreign policy, (national) defence and acts as a court of law between all member corporations (not just those owned by or affiliated with the big eight.*). There is some bureaucratic central government as well (House of Records).
Everything below the national or inter-corporate level is governed by the corporations themselves. The ideology of these corporations being not just vessels for profit but quasi states makes it work. Caldari corporations are not just aimed at making money but also about providing for and taking care of their own. If you cross them, expect no sympathy from your peers and no neutral court.
*PY-RE was sued in front of the CBT for slander against Intara Direct Action, got support from Kaalakiota Lawyers and in the end Heth went all moustache on the case and used his powers as State Executor to stop the lawsuit. This was the point where the prevalent feeling, including many of those in PY-RE, switched to "Provists are going too far".
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I do not know where you get this impression that "crossover fanfiction" is the norm.
I got that impression from the roleplaying community in Eve Online. Weren't you the one talking about fascism which is an ideology specific to a particular era in real-world history being co-opted wholesale and applied to Caldari as-is without any context?
When the prevailing attitude is to just co-opt real world history, media, culture or literature wholesale to fictional entities without any context as to how or why then all that exists is essentially terrible crossover fiction divorced from the lore itself.
It's a similar process as those people who try to repost OC on imgur so they can get some upvotes to cover their own inability to have the creativity to create dank memes.
Or me trying to roleplay having created a post-scarcity society inside a wormhole while desperately trying to hope that other people haven't read Iain M. Banks Culture series on which everything has been directly copypasted from.
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Also as an aside: Jin-Roh > Helghast.
Pfft. The Jin-roh are merely a subjugated Japan. At least the Helghast are a properly corporate statist nation.
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Also as an aside: Jin-Roh > Helghast.
Pfft. The Jin-roh are merely a subjugated Japan. At least the Helghast are a properly corporate statist nation.
Yeah but Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade had them feels, man.
Also a lack of a proper Killzone game from the Helghast perspective. Who doesn't want to press F to execute civilians?
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In which case, in the same spirit and vein, further bonus points for playing Caldari as the second coming of the Helghast (http://killzone.wikia.com/wiki/Helghan_Empire).
Do I get further bonus points for having helped develop the Helghast? If anyone gets to play one in Eve, it ought to be the guy who wrote half of Visari's propaganda...
If that is true, I'm a huge fan. That crazy speech for the intro of Killzone 2 was one of the best I've seen in vidya.
Possibly the problem with the Caldari is that real life is a bit short of direct analogs of their way of doing things. Sure we've had, and still have, places where megas are very influential. But I can't think of a time & place where corporations have decided to do without government and do it all the work of raising, training & looking after a workforce themselves.
Maybe "corporation" is the wrong term for the megas? Maybe they are better thought of as allied nations that are all run on corporate lines.
Apart from private companies breaking off to bring up their own sets of citizens, Singapore is the closest thing to a RL analog to the State. It's probably why I picked Caldari when I started playing 10 years ago because the kind of culture which Caldari espouse is difficult for people from individualistic societies to grapple with, and I'm familiar with it. The government here has holding companies with stupid amounts of money which buy up to 15-20% shares in "Government-Linked Companies" and they have fingers in literally every sector of the economy. They may be listed on the stock market but they handle everything from maintaining the roads, manufacturing weapons, fixing stuff for the military, running telecoms, handling medical R&D and so on. The state may on one hand claim to support and encourage entrepreneurship and development of new IP, but when it finds out that an IP is useful for its own end, it will use the courts to summarily win the case and revoke the patent in question.
These GLCs are so large and so integral to the daily function of the country itself, that the state itself can sometimes be irrelevant. The various GLCs responsible for their own corners do develop their own individual internal cultures and can sometimes develop a rivalry which resembles the Home Office vs Foreign Office in the UK instead of the kind of competition between private companies.
All this is made possible thanks to an utilitarian dogma of pragmatism > all which focuses more on the collective good and steamrolls over individual interests in the name of that greater good. When things go badly, they will still chant the mantra of pragmatism even though the individualistic method would've produced better results.
It's also probably not a coincidence that some of my friends here are starting to complain about how the country is being run like a cyberpunk megacorp, and anyone who isn't making more than 800k/year is leading a lifestyle reminiscent of Shadowrun wageslaves. Give Singapore Inc. a look, and you'll come to a clearer understanding of the Caldari.
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Well, the British East India Company also comes to mind as a historical entity that was essentially the colonial government of India and a corporation that paid out dividends to shareholders.
In the context of Eve, the Caldari Megas came to the fore after the initial expansion out of Luminaire after the reconstruction of the VH-451 gate. If it was Caldari companies and capital that laid out all the cash for colonial enterprises such as the exploration, terraforming, infrastructure development, and transportation then it makes sense they would also end up as the de facto authorities on the worlds they founded.
The difference being that whereas Gallente worlds seemed to trend towards the creation of democratic governments on the their colonies the Caldari seemed fine having their colonial corporations remain as the authority and government.